What is the next new trend?

[Bill Howell]

Good morning everyone! I happen to be in Colorado for the day with nothing to do. That gives me time to think and that can be scary. The 2014 season is winding down now and looking back over it as a promoter of events it has certainly been interesting.
Going into the year, knowing what was on the horizon, we decided to back off on full out race events for a couple of reasons. The major concern then and even now is the fact I felt speeds had surpassed safety requirements and talent.
The second reason from a promoter's point of view, we questioned was the event schedule over saturated. My opinion is we were correct. Other than LS fest, which is a bit different than the others and draws a different crowd with drag racers, all other events all suffered from poor turn out. As someone who puts my personal money on the line I have to wonder why would I continue down this seemingly dead end path? I know that currently there are less than 500 participants nationwide that bring out their pt cars to these events. When you have 20 events across the country the numbers just don't work.
So here is why I started this thread... What direction are we headed? I have done events for ten years now. RTTHs started with 13 friends meeting to have fun and play with our cars. Drag race, cruise and bench racing...that was our only agenda. That event has always sold out and has always been structured more to fun not so much the competition. Then came Motorstate then others and now we are where we are.
If you had to create an event based on what you like what would you do? Do you see a structured sanctioned series or do you prefer a more fun based event where competition isn't the main focus?
This year we have focused on associating with already established events and adding the autocross element to those events. We feel this has added people and cars to our hobby and we want them to decide to what level they want to participate with their cars. I will continue this direction next year as it has been much more fun and rewarding to see new people discover this small nitch we call protouring than to see participation dwindle to the same 30 cars at the smaller venues.
I feel that the general pt membership here has spoken LOUDLY this year simply be not showing up at venues regardless of the promoter.
What does it take to get you out from behind your computer and at an event? Are you wanting more fun or more competition?

All comments and opinions welcomed on this on guys! Please speak your mind and don't be concerned with other opinions.
Thanks!

[BADNBLK]

Hope your enjoying our first fall day here. Where are you at anyway?

For me I put my best effort to be involved in every event that offers autocross, and keeps it FUN... that is local to me within reason. There is very few events that offer the fun factor, but as you said the more you introduce the autox to more people I think this will continue to grow. Its hard to not grow an event and not have the competitive edge grow with it. I like winning (doesn't happen much) just like the next guy, but I don't want to take my car to a level where it really is bordering on a "racecar". I have kids and I need to keep things calm enough to take the car to an event on street tires, have fun, and drive home with a smile knowing my son thinks his dad is a race car driver LOL.

I wish there was a centrally located track somewhere in the middle of the country where east could meet the west, south meet the north, and have a long weekend wearing out tires and twisting shocks... *cough High Plains... Bill

[tflyboy77]

FUN!! That is what started this and it's what we all love to do. No one (with the exception of promotors" wants to drive half way across the country and spend $500 just to be on TV. At that point of the commitment this turns into a job instead of a fun hobby. Not to mention that most of us have jobs, family's and mortgages.
I loved the ASCS events and they are what got me started but with the lack of fun cheap events this year, I spent most of my time with my regional Scca and did very well to boot.
In short.....Bring back the fun Bill.

[PT Sportwagon]

Bill, I can see what you are saying. With 20 events it can be over whelming for participants. ( yet none around the rocky Mtn area) With the price of just about everything being up. Some people can only afford to attend certain events. One thing you may have to ask is how many Pro-touring cars ( not counting some of the 500) want to really tear their car up in competition. RTTH is seems to be one event where the driving is one of the drawing factors. Driving meaning just that driving, touring the great Smokie Mtns. Look at the Dragon it is a fun road to drive but with the LE presence. speed limits, and other traffic. You really cannot haul the mail.( too much, LOL) Do all the participants of RTTH drag race?
Most people drive a modern car as a daily driver, They build a pro-touring car because they want that modern comfort in their vintage car. Most of the Pro-Touring related businesses started for this very fact, making a vintage car more comfortable, Ride Tech and Vintage Air to name a couple. The competition aspect of the hobby blossomed from there, But few want to compete with their car. They are happy to just drive their modernized vintage car. Attending events where they can meet other like minded people and enjoy the friendship. Touring with their car and bench racing.

Tim

[k7king]

Thanks Bill for all you've done. I really enjoy your events and had a blast at RTMC and RTTH's last year. I enjoy the events where I can beat on my car but don't have to worry about crashing it at 100+mph. Mostly auto crossing and some of the smaller road courses. I think you are on a good path introducing auto crossing to new venues by having them at different existing shows. I wish I was coming to Cruising the coast. I'm excited to see what you have planned for next year.
Mike King

[rchaskin]

Next new trend......Muscle drift....LOL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nKuL4u_c0RI

I like Autocross, drift and drag, in that order.

The Chevy high performance event at Atlanta dragway is the most fun event that I go to.
There is Autocross and drag, and you get so many autocross runs, that you can throw a few of them away to see if you can drift the whole track....

I also prefer Friday - Saturday events.

Just my 0.02!!

Also, more events around Charlotte motor Speedway, or Zmax Dragway.
These are awesome places to Autocross.

[SSLance]

Just from my perspective, my wife and I are doing a lot of soul searching about which way we'd like to head in regards to events in the future. I told her when I got back from the USCA event at Gateway that if I could do 2-3 of those a year, I'd quit local SCCA racing. Then I went to the SCCA Solo Nationals for the first time and had a great time there as well. It appears that I'm liking running at the bigger events over the smaller local events because of the increased seat time available. But this comes with a price. It's not just the entry fee, it's the travel costs, hotel rooms, supplies and consumables for the car, time away from home and family etc.

For us, we are trying to figure out a way to travel to away events in comfort, with a comfortable place to hang out in and a place for the wife and dogs to go when watching the racing gets to be too much. A motorhome, a toy hauler trailer, a truck camper...so many choices and they all cost money.

I understand where Bill is coming from on the promoter side of things, I'm sure there are tough decisions to be made again this offseason. I've only had a small taste of the large travel to events though and I like it. A lot...

I would travel to an event at High Plains in a heartbeat if a vote in that direction counts at all. Whatever event is within easy driving distance and offers the most seattime is going to get my attention. Schedule is the only other factor but that's a whole 'nuther complication.

[srh3trinity]

I like the idea of fun events. The USCA is cool and we get to see some of our favorite cars on tv battle it out, but i think I would be overwhelmed to be around all of those guys pushing for every tenth. I fully intend on making it to a RTTH or another ASCA event when my car is completed. That has always seemed to set the standard for fun in the PT community and I trust you and your associates will continue to build on that event as the one that started it all.

[b17brian]

I’m a new guy to pro-touring, but am fascinated by the prospect of getting my car on the track and autocrossing. I’ve watched the videos of others autocrossing and gone to a local SCCA event. But I’m still transforming my car from a mid-performance ‘80s street car to a pro-touring car on a low budget and no support from the wife. So as much as I want to go to the major events I can’t, because that will take $$$ from the car. And since competition is a long time away it’s about the fun for me. I plan on going to Cruisin The Coast again this year and will check out the autocross event there. Thank you Bill and others that promote these events.

[eric1967]

I think you are right about the number of events verses the number of competitors. It seems a lot of the events are becoming more pro & less touring. Maybe we need to get back to the way things got started. Cruising in a pack of cars is a great time as well as autocross or track days. This year I would have loved to attended the Run to Music City but with many other event around that time I did not make it. I believe it was scheduled kind of late in the year & I had other events already planned. May help to get the schedule out sooner. Maybe I just missed the info when planning out events for the year.

We need to get more people involved. I have lots of friends with cars that will not get them out. I am not sure how to help this. I think beginners are intimidated by being in the same class as very experienced drivers & cars that look more like race cars. They think that they need a race car to compete.

I would love to see some more shootouts at autocross event. In 2013 at Ls Fest they had a 64 car shootout in the 3s challenge. It was lots of fun to compete in & too watch. I was disappointed when they did not do that again this year. The shootouts could have cars with similar times competing together. In 2013 most everybody stayed to watch the shootout. This year many cars left by noon.

Bill it is nice that you started this thread to give everyone a chance to tell their ideas. I think cost is a huge factor. My bracket race buddies think I am nuts when I tell them about a $500 dollar entry fee to an event that pays nothing. I am not sure prize money is the answer, but maybe things could be structured so there are some new faces in the winners circle. Just a few of my thought. Look forward to hearing more ideas.

Thanks
Eric

[cluxford]

I'm not US based, Live in Australia, but spend a lot of time over there. I see the same thing in both places. Large high cost events that have big promoters behind them, that while are amazing in bringing out the super talented drivers and cars, are often too far or too costly for the average punter. My view and this is something that I think would work in both the US and Australia, is to franchise event management. Make it so a local car club can set up, run and deliver a local fun event, that is low cost, easy to get to and easy for people to participate in. many car clubs run various events, but not Auto-X or other course based events as they are too hard and too many overheads, too many logistics. The ability toe et up a registration website, cover insurances, get timing equipment rented, a logistics plan, a resource plan etc would make it a lot easier for local clubs to run events. The event managers get a cut of the takings to cover their costs / profits. This way a local club might only run an Auto-X with say 30-50 cars, or even less. But it's affordable. There might be some form of qualification to large more state based events in the longer term.

My view is that the large events almost exclude participation, they make it hard for people to get involved be it cost, time, location etc....franchise it and make it local....

[DTM Racing]

I've gotta say, I'd love to see it get dialed back a bit. Make it a 3 day mini powertour or something. Cruising, Drags, Autocross and a HPDE style track day(no times). I've said it since my first event with you guys in 2010, it needs to be all fun or all competition. If it's going to be competition, I hate to say it, but it needs RULES. It's unlimited rigth now and there are some serious nukes being tossed around. I say eff the competition, eff the rules, and lets all just go out and have a good time. No sponsor money, no checks at the end at SEMA, no TV, just dudes and their cars, having a blast. I agree with the statement a few posts up. These things are getting way too pro, and not nearly enough touring. I think it scares away the little guy.

[srh3trinity]

I may be in the minority, but I like the idea of a cruise from one town to the next. Some type of back road cruise from one cool restaurant to another restaurant and autocross the next day. Kind of like a mini Power Tour with an autocross.

[BonzoHansen]

I had a blast at the rtts event. But for the next year and a half I am too tied up with my son's baseball to do anything too far or even scca race. So in whatever spare time I have I am concentrating on getting my car power tour ready in 2017 or 2018. Then rtth and then maybe cruising the coast. Put the tour back in pro-touring is my goal lol.

[SSLance]

I think cost is a huge factor. My bracket race buddies think I am nuts when I tell them about a $500 dollar entry fee to an event that pays nothing.


How many events would the bracket racers have to enter to get the same amount of seat time that we got at Gateway? And then throw in the high caliber instruction available plus the road rally and BBQ. I was maybe a bit hesitant about the initial entry fee at first as well, but by the time I was done I was amazed at the value the event provided. I'll say this too, I never once felt intimidated or uneasy about the high end cars and drivers there, hell I wanted to run with them. Everyone seemed to want to help everyone else run better, no matter the skill or car level, that's what it was all about.

I think it's the other way around, it might be possible that people shy away from competitive based events like that because they don't want to run their cars that hard...and that is okay too. I've never been to any of Bill's events, but I've heard nothing but good things about them. I actually think my wife would be a more wiling participant to an event like that over a competitive type event like USCA, which would lead me to try one of them as well. Again, somewhere in the middle of the Country would be great. ;)

I'm active with our local SCCA autocross and see what we go through on a regular basis to get those events to happen, and it's no picnic either. They face many of the same challenges, how to get cars out, make events run smooth, find places to hold events...it's a tough row to hoe. You have to be flexible and give the drivers what they want to get them to come out.

[TheJDMan]

I agree, less emphasis on competition and more on fun. There are so many events being organized these days that I could literally attend something every weekend if I wanted to. With so many events available to choose from cost becomes a big issue at some point. How about a rally over the Tail of the Dragon or some similar twisty road in the Blue Ridge.

[Tomswheels]

Bill, the most fun I've had in my car was at the Run to the Coast events at El Toro. At $180 per day you got a ton of track time, and I loved the Speed Stop / Autocross/ Road Course format. The USCA event I went to at Fontana was a similar format, and a good amount of track time, but it did seem a bit more serious, like guys were there to win more than hang out. The fact 1/2 the people paid for covered pits and half didn't kind of separated us during down times. I enjoyed it, but not quite as much as RTTC. Our local SCCA events have a great pro-touring turnout, and we bring a BBQ and food, and this makes it much more fun than going to an SCCA event alone. I guess that's what I would strive for providing to us, camaraderie between laps and at lunch, and larger Autocross courses and any size Road courses. The smaller Autocross tracks I've been to at Fontana this year where the top speed is 40 MPH or less can get boring.

[Cobra 498]

Bill, the most fun I've had in my car was at the Run to the Coast events at El Toro. At $180 per day you got a ton of track time, and I loved the Speed Stop / Autocross/ Road Course format. The USCA event I went to at Fontana was a similar format, and a good amount of track time, but it did seem a bit more serious, like guys were there to win more than hang out. The fact 1/2 the people paid for covered pits and half didn't kind of separated us during down times. I enjoyed it, but not quite as much as RTTC. Our local SCCA events have a great pro-touring turnout, and we bring a BBQ and food, and this makes it much more fun than going to an SCCA event alone. I guess that's what I would strive for providing to us, camaraderie between laps and at lunch, and larger Autocross courses and any size Road courses. The smaller Autocross tracks I've been to at Fontana this year where the top speed is 40 MPH or less can get boring.

I have to agree my favorite events over the past 3-4 years were RTTC: great courses, fast but safe and above all fun to be there. I was very sorry to see that the site was not available for more events.

[Project92rs]

As someone who will drive as far as it takes to get to an event, it has to be fun. We've been to Run to the Coast (somewhat local for us) the last 3 times it was held. We drove to Pigeon Forge for RTTH (definitely not local to Phoenix) in 2013. This year's trip involved Run to Music City, SCCA Nationals, and LSFest. While we might not do SCCA again, if RTMC is scheduled within a week or two of LSFest we'll do that one again. Same for RTTH.

Having fun is what got us started running Super Chevy and then RTTC. Not having much fun is why we probably won't go back to SCCA Nationals. We know our car isn't in the same league as some of the other cars in terms of power. We also know we're years worth of seat time behind many of the other drivers. We expect to not finish first and hope to finish in the top half of the pack. But mainly we want to have a good time doing it. As long as the events stay fun, we'll keep planning vacations to attend and have a good time.

[NJSPEEDER]

The events you have are fantastic, I had so much fun at the Jersey event a few years ago without even getting to drive. I think the biggest factor is the cost, or cost vs risk as it were.

For so many people, especially younger enthusiasts, the cars they would be competing in are daily drivers and must be relied upon. So the price of entry along with risking their way to work is a legitimate fear.

I do think the call for some more safety equipment would be legit. It is so easy to make power nowadays (did that just make me sound old?) that even a moderate budget can put the ability to crest 100mph multiple times per lap under the right foot of a high schooler with their first job. Does some kid who's license hasn't even cooled off sound like the best person to put out on a big track?

To some degree i think that points to a third possible direction, is sort of splitting the event a possibility? Maybe have an entry for inexperienced drivers or cars without big track safety equipment that gets a few paced touring laps and participates in autoX and speed stop. Then have the big kids class that does hot laps of the big track as well. Along with a lower cost for autox it would be an opportunity for younger or inexperienced drivers to get their feet wet and with SCCA, NASA, or other club support at the events it would be easy to find people that can ride along with the newbs and give pointers.

I also think you could add some fun and participation in by adding a second division to the event. Since there is a compound minimum to keep things in the spirit of being street cars maybe offer a split. Anyone at or over the compound point is the street champ and anyone under the compound minimum gets a trophy as race car champion. I think it would go a long way to opening up the events to a broader market and getting a larger audience talking about putting together fast street cars to try to find their way to the Optima shoot out.

The last thing I would suggest, and I know it's not necessarily the most popular suggestion on a muscle car site, is that the marketing really could be opened up a lot to include the import/sport compact crowd. They are less expensive and much more common cars. They are also a huge market for a lot of current and potential vendors and sponsors.

I hope the events continue long enough for me to put together something to actually compete.

-Tim

[71RS/SS396]

I've gotta say, I'd love to see it get dialed back a bit. Make it a 3 day mini powertour or something. Cruising, Drags, Autocross and a HPDE style track day(no times). I've said it since my first event with you guys in 2010, it needs to be all fun or all competition. If it's going to be competition, I hate to say it, but it needs RULES. It's unlimited rigth now and there are some serious nukes being tossed around. I say eff the competition, eff the rules, and lets all just go out and have a good time. No sponsor money, no checks at the end at SEMA, no TV, just dudes and their cars, having a blast. I agree with the statement a few posts up. These things are getting way too pro, and not nearly enough touring. I think it scares away the little guy.

You willing to pony up more money for entry fee if no sponsors are involved? Sponsors are a reality if you want affordable entry fees, it's expensive to put on these events.

[parsonsj]

it's expensive to put on these events.Yep. Especially on road courses at the big venues (Daytona, Gingerman, Sebring, Road America, etc.). Track rental, insurance, and travel, expenses, and lodging for the organizers gets quickly past $30K (and much more) for a weekend. If you have 100 cars come out, entry fees are reasonable... but if you only have 30, then either entry fees go way up or the guys running the event lose big money.

Oh, and Bill: I'm gonna fix your thread title. I assume you meant "trend".

[JEFFTATE]

I was initially attracted to the pro-touring hobby because of the love for vintage musclecars.
And I wanted to socialize and learn from people who wanted to improve the cars ..
Track times , via autocrossing or roadcourse, validates the improvements..

I loved the Run Thru the Hills events and the Year One Experience.
They were the grandaddys of all these other events.

I like autocrossing , it's relatively safe and inexpensive , compared to a road course.
But , driving on a roadcourse is a whole other thrill !
It's just that roadcourse is so much more expensive ( as a participant and event promoter )

I think we need both kinds of events :

1) Low price, Low key autocross / cruise/ dinner events with an emphasis on fun and socializing .
Keep track of peoples times for the sake of comparison amd learning.
2) And some road course events ( I know they cost more , but hey ) . With the same emphasis on track times for comparison and learning ..

The problem is coming up with enough participants money and sponsor money to pay for the venues and insurance .
The sponsors deserve a place at these events to show their wares . Heck , they pay a lot for it .

[SRD art]

x2 on cost issues. I believe there are plenty of guys that don't have a ton of spare cash who could likely attend more semi local and less expensive events. Pro Touring is growing and evolving, and isn't that far off what drag racing is. Not everyone can campaign a top fueler or pro mod, but lots of folks can build a 13 second street car with a few bucks set aside each month. If the events are all large scale, unfortunately playing with the big boys at the big events will always be just a pipe dream for many of us. That's a huge let down and has been a discouragement for me since I converted from drag racing a couple of years ago. I considered bagging the whole thing and selling my car earlier this year but I have two teenage kids that now go with me to the track and that has more value to me than anything else. My 16 year old son raced his first SCCA event last month and my 14 year old daughter wants to race next year when she gets her driving permit. So we'll continue doing it, even if for the most part it's to just a few local SCCA events a year.

To be fair I understand that it takes a lot of $ to run an event and that means large entrance fees. I don't really have a concept though of what the cost to run an event really is. Is the race entry $500 because the location is way expensive? Is there another less expensive location it might be held? Is there a need to have more than simply just a large parking lot we can set up cones on or can we run events a little more low key? $500 sounds like the type of fee to enter a major race with payouts and serious competition and recognition. Not like as has been suggested, running a casual cruise through the mountains and then having some fun pushing your car a little in a parking lot. I can do that on the way to work for free every day. ;) (I say that tongue in cheek, I don't mean to come across as a butthead.)

Personally I like the competition rather than just hanging out. If I had the $ to tour the circuit my old beat up station wagon would be bucking for a spot at Optima too. Although I know my car at 1/5th to 1/10th the cost of a lot of cars on here may never keep up with the big money boys, I still want an opportunity to try, or at least compete against cars that I can put up a good effort against. I think an event where it's all casual fun and no competition would be a little boring. To be fair this means classes. It would be way too easy for a faster driver to sandbag and take first place in the amateur class instead of the pro class where he should be, so I really like the class by times idea. It's like running drag brackets, 13.90 class, 12.90, 11.90...

I question opening the event up to imports. I like this specific genre of the aumotive industry because it's all about making a muscle car perform better. I like muscle cars, not imports (although I do respect them for what they are). If there were a large group of both cars at an event I wonder if there would be a division of groups, rather than everyone intermingling? That's how it is a our local small town drag race events. There are plenty of events out there for those guys, let's keep "pro touring" pro touring. I realize they may bring in the numbers, but better marketing or making it easier for more cost conscious pro touring guys to come out would do the same. If I want to play with the import guys I can attend SCCA events, which I do enjoy attending and visiting with those guys there.

Imports would muddle the competition too. How dorky is it to read in a muscle car magazine that a VW beetle spanked half of the muscle cars that were at an event? At my last SCCA race there was a beater 80s Toyota Corolla that showed up with his stock engine, stock exhaust system, skinny 155-80-13 tires, and faded paint. The guy bolted 8" wide 13" slicks on the car and spanked me by 6 seconds. After all the $ and mods I've put into my car that was both humorous and frustrating, and made me wonder why I don't own something like that instead. It sure would make my bank account and my wife a whole lot happier. At a "pro touring muscle car" event my pride would rather be only a couple seconds behind a $150,000 1st gen Camaro than be 6 seconds behind an import that a guy bought at a garage sale for $500.

In a nutshell, my vote is more toned down events at more places around the country. Venues similar in scale and cost to the Hotchkis Fontana event seems like it would bring more than just the regulars out. Make a big deal out of it, promote the heck out of it, have a special forum section where we post pics and times of all the cars so we can all see who's who around the country and get a little nationwide bench racing going on. Make it exciting and inviting to the reader. Still have a few big events on the roster. These little events will spark enough interest and competition so that more people will save and plan for the bigger events. There they can go head to head with the folks they read about from the smaller events.

Why spend all the money on a Pro Touring car and then not use it, I don't get that. I see that as a waste of money :). If you want a car that looks like a pro touring car cut your springs and slap on a set of 18" wheels and you're done. Take the other $15,000 you would've spent on suspension mods and take your wife on a nice vacation so she doesn't mind you having toys. Or go put a down payment on a BMW so you can have a good handling car that you never use for good handling. :hammer: Lol! :)

[DTM Racing]

You willing to pony up more money for entry fee if no sponsors are involved? Sponsors are a reality if you want affordable entry fees, it's expensive to put on these events.

At 100 entrants (EASY to do in the South West region) and $250.00, I find it hard to believe you can't put on a great social driving event for that money. Eliminate the timing equipment, focus on the touring and hitch the event to other venues, and it starts working out pretty quickly. As was pointed out before, the upcoming Hotchkis Autocross is a whopping $100.00 for a 3 day weekend. All these other companies seem to be able to do track days at big name tracks for 100.00-200.00 a day. Why are we having trouble with it? If the cost gets offset by sponsors coming out to the event, great; but as soon as prize money gets passed out, it turns into a competition.

I'm involved with enough of the smaller events to know what they cost. I've been the event organizer for a few of them. I know what the sponsors are paying to be associated with the events and I don't envy the guys like Bill, Brian and Jimi that have to find a way to make it enjoyable and keep the grids full and the sponsors coming back. I think that we need to have a bigger focus on the "gateway drug" to moving on to the big show, and I think that goes back to what Bill said and how this whole segment started a decade ago. The little guy with a stockish Camaro/Challenger/Mustang has to have a place to play just as much as the guy with the 150k Camaro/Challenger/Mustang. Its getting the new blood in that keeps it alive, not the same folks with the new build.

[SSLance]

What Ben says above makes a lot of sense, hard to argue with any of that. Finding that particular venue for those kinds of smaller events can be difficult though. Our local SCCA region struggles with that constantly...along with everything else being discussed in this thread (how to get more people to events, how to get new people to events, how to pay to put on events, etc) it's not just the PT side of motorsports that struggles in this area. Piggy backing with another series that is already using a facility makes a lot of sense, a way to share the load so to speak.

I live in a metropolitan area of 2-3 million people...and our SCCA Region can't find a suitable parking lot large enough to handle an event with 100 cars autocrossing... Maybe some time and effort needs to be spent coming up with a way to convince large facilities to rent out their asphalt for these types of events before we promote a series to race on them.

[olason]

I haven't competed in any of the usca events since they started, but I did go out to the MIS event to volunteer for a day. I am excited to hopefully be out at events next year getting seat time. Since relocating to metro Detroit, I am surprised about the amount of events that are within 6-8 hours of me now. The MIS event had the road coarse the day after the Chump car series ran their, but did the autocross and speed-stop during the chump car road coarse race which worked pretty well from the little I saw.

[k7king]

Wonder if USCA is looking at options that would offer to Autocross only for $200..... Road Course $300? I'm sure there are a lot of people that would like to attend these events but don't have the desire to run 120+ mph on a road course. I'm glad the option is out there for those that do. I still like the social part of goodguys autocross and the ASCS but I am competitive and wouldn't attend an event that wasn't timed where I could see my results and improvements.

[chevelletiger]

Keep it fun.As some have said here,its turning too pro.The mfgs and guys who have deep pockets to travel and make huge power with there checks shadow the little guys.one example,and i hope not to hurt anybody saying this but lets look at someone like mark steilow he has the oe tech and know how from working with the most up to date stuff its almost impossible to get to his level or any number of people who have way more race experience.That what ive always loved about bills events since going to watch them at el torro.i spoke with mark at scandc about this a few mo. Back about how these events are getting taken to serious,tire warmers etc.!hahaha! Im 37yrs old,married with a morgage,car payment.as most here im not looking to be a race car driver...i just want to pretend im one them go home with the wife and come back to reality.
Phil

[struck by Lightning]

The next new trend?

1. Autocross events scheduled with larger main stream racing events.
2. Additional non-automotive sponsors.

[PT Sportwagon]

After reading some of the posts I will put in another $.02. Does the events have to be at a famous name track. Road America, Leguna Seca, or Daytona. Yeah, those are dream tracks on a lot of bucket lists. But with all the notoriety these tracks have come a notable cost to rent and the owners know this. There are plenty of lesser known tracks that offer just as much fun at a cheaper price. Look at the autocross at Good Guys events. Costing nothing over the standard entry fee. but people have just as much fun. Even look at SCCA autocrossing just find a parking lot to use or rent, lay out a course and have fun. SCCA clubs offer insurance for the event.
When I was autocrossing my 2wd S-10 Blazer. Our club traded the business whose parking lot we used. When the season was over we would stripe the lot. It may have cost the club $300 in materials and machine rental. but for the use it was well worth it.

Tim

[LemonTwisted]

As a newbie, I think there is a definite need for the type of events that Bill and the ASCS crew put on, local, fun and affordable. I attended my first autocross event this spring at the Atlanta Motorama and I probably would not have taken the car on the course if it wasn't for the welcoming atmosphere that I felt while hanging out with some of the other participants and ASCS crew. I had so much fun at that autocross that I did the Peach State Musclecar Challenge and I'm looking at doing the Goodguys autocross in Charlotte next month.

My car is more of a Resto Mod than a Pro Touring car and I know a good many people that have cars that fall more into this category than a track worthy Pro Touring car and the ASCS events seem to be a good "gateway drug" to get these folks out and really drive their cars rather than just cruise around in them. I think you have a good product Bill, it just needs more marketing. The only way I found out about the Autocross at the Motorama was through this site. Maybe post some event info on some other automotive related forums and car show / event calendar sites like southeastwheelsevents.com and other regional sites.

I would also like to see some instruction for autocross and the track if it's a track event, Even if it's just one of the more experienced local drivers putting on a 2 hour clinic the first morning of the event. That way the newbies will have an idea of what they are doing plus build on the camaraderie with some of the other participants. This could be like an extra cost Add On to the base event fee too. I think the timing is a good idea just to be able to compare how you are progressing and how you compare with others.

To me a USCA event would be something to work up to and do maybe once as a bucket list event rather than do as a series every year. I'm sure I'm like alot of guys that just don't have the time and resources to commit to the car and to traveling to those type of events but I do enjoy participating in the more affordable and local events a few times a year.

I'm looking forward to doing more ASCS events next year and will hopefully bring out a few more folks.

[badazz81z28]

Cost...Cost...Cost....That has been my biggest deterrent. Having lived in California now for a few years with a completed "novice" built Camaro, I have not attended one event. On my military pay check, I can't afford to pay hundreds of dollars in an entry fee and another hundred or two transporting my car back and forth. The folks on this board with six figure jobs, sponsors etc are the only ones up for that. Like mentioned, I know there are cost associated with these events, but there has to be some budgeting that can be done to defray some of the cost. Last year I drag raced at Willow Springs probably a half dozen times. Only cost me $20 to race each event and participation is usually pretty good (they normally see 100 or so cars). I think the autocross at Hot August Nights was an awesome idea, but I had no clue it was going on till I was already there in Reno. I think if that was included in the event or sponsored through it some how, that could be a low cost event right there.

Bottom line is this is an expensive hobby. A set of DSE headers I'm looking at $2200, BAER brakes $1850, Forgelines $6K...it adds up quick than pay thousands of dollars to race at multiple events...Its now a profession.

[1966longroof]

Bill, the direction you went with RTMC was spot on. Everyone got all the runs they wanted on both courses (AX and Round Track), with plenty of time to relax, talk, etc. And I must say the couple hour bs session Saturday morning at the hotel was great. Nothing better than old farts telling stories. Keep up the good work.

[protouring70]

Bill, the direction you went with RTMC was spot on. Everyone got all the runs they wanted on both courses (AX and Round Track), with plenty of time to relax, talk, etc. And I must say the couple hour bs session Saturday morning at the hotel was great. Nothing better than old farts telling stories. Keep up the good work.
You are dead on! I haven't had anything to play with in a few years, but I am excited to be a part of this family. Thanks for the time and effort you put in to this!

[howehot]

I would love lower cost and less travel, but living in NE Iowa, I don't think this will happen. All depends on how you spend your dollar. In July I drove 2.5 hours to Des Moines for Goodguys, spent a night on hotel, entry fee, and fuel and got 3 runs on Sunday. To me a very poor value. In May I drove 23 hours to Daytona for the USCA event. Left on a Wednesday and home in the we hours Tuesday. I ran 5 20 minute session on the road course Saturday with free driver instruction, over 30 runs on the autox again with instruction, and over 30 runs on the speed stop. Best $500 entry fee ever spent. I also ran Road America and Gateway with the USCA.

Not sure why people think just because they are released on a big track they need to drive overs their ability. I drive to my comfort zone. I not out to win. I like my health and value my car. I'm all about the experience and learn as much as I can at each event. The professional instructor offered at USCA events are like attending a driving school. Each event is very organize, you are given a schedule of events and if your not on time, to bad for you as the show goes on.

The first event I ever attended was the Heidts event in 2013 and never did figure out who was running the event. I ended up in the wrong run group on Sunday due to attending the autox school on Saturday. Never had a schedule of where to be, track, speed stop, or autox. Felt lost all weekend.

All this said, I will attend events that are organized and get me track time. I don't care if it's autox or a road course, I want track time!

[Nicks67GTO]

I had an idea for an event through Iowa.

Start at Tri-State raceway in Earlville Iowa and race till Noon get your best timeslip....http://www.tristateraceway.com/

Then pack up and as a group head to CedarFalls Raceway via hwy 20. Its about an hour drive race till 7 or 8 and get your best timeslip....http://www.cedarfallsraceway.com/

That night camp in Cedar Falls or block a hotel down and go out for a bit on Main Street in CF {top notch local food/bar scene}

Next day 8am-ish head to Newton speedway.....http://www.iowaspeedway.com/aspx/Events/EventDetail.aspx?id=287
or Mid america Motorplex...http://www.midamericamotorplex.com/site/ and hit some auto X and road course stuff.

Lowest overall combined time wins.

Make it like drag week. Pull your own trailer and tools. No support cars. No fancy motorhome stuff. Run whatever you brung. Call it the Iowa Ultimate Streetcar Challenge. It was an idea I kicked around but I have no time to make it happen at this point in my life. If someone else wanted to run with it feel free.

[DesertFox]

I had an idea for an event through Iowa.

Start at Tri-State raceway in Earlville Iowa and race till Noon get your best timeslip....http://www.tristateraceway.com/

Then pack up and as a group head to CedarFalls Raceway via hwy 20. Its about an hour drive race till 7 or 8 and get your best timeslip....http://www.cedarfallsraceway.com/

That night camp in Cedar Falls or block a hotel down and go out for a bit on Main Street in CF {top notch local food/bar scene}

Next day 8am-ish head to Newton speedway.....http://www.iowaspeedway.com/aspx/Events/EventDetail.aspx?id=287
or Mid america Motorplex...http://www.midamericamotorplex.com/site/ and hit some auto X and road course stuff.

Lowest overall combined time wins.

Make it like drag week. Pull your own trailer and tools. No support cars. No fancy motorhome stuff. Run whatever you brung. Call it the Iowa Ultimate Streetcar Challenge. It was an idea I kicked around but I have no time to make it happen at this point in my life. If someone else wanted to run with it feel free.
It would be a 2 days drive to get there, but yeah I'd go for that... ;)

[So Cal Camaro]

Last year I ran all over the country racing at events, this year decided not going to spend the money to do it again with having James Crosby finishing up my 56. I have had a great time competing in our local events this year, some of which my friends Racing Byrd's have run, like the Hotchkis event coming up in October at NMCA. While I did attend the USCA event in Portland to hang out and race with some friends, I find those events overpriced for what you get...so I would love to see more events like RTTC at El Toro, without all the BS design **** that favors the car builders...and for god sakes have a Pro class, if you're a pro/vender for Good Guys, you should be for USCA or ASCS events...Anyway, this year I voted with my wallet, and stayed home from a lot of bigger events that I did not feel gave me what I wanted from an event. Bill, I wish some of your events were closer to California, would likely attend, will see if I decide to send the Camaro back out to run Heidt's, Midwest and LS Fest next year. I do agree there are only so many cars/people that will come to these events, so make them more fun and a better value.

[NJSPEEDER]

I had an idea for an event through Iowa.

Start at Tri-State raceway in Earlville Iowa and race till Noon get your best timeslip....http://www.tristateraceway.com/

Then pack up and as a group head to CedarFalls Raceway via hwy 20. Its about an hour drive race till 7 or 8 and get your best timeslip....http://www.cedarfallsraceway.com/

That night camp in Cedar Falls or block a hotel down and go out for a bit on Main Street in CF {top notch local food/bar scene}

Next day 8am-ish head to Newton speedway.....http://www.iowaspeedway.com/aspx/Events/EventDetail.aspx?id=287
or Mid america Motorplex...http://www.midamericamotorplex.com/site/ and hit some auto X and road course stuff.

Lowest overall combined time wins.

Make it like drag week. Pull your own trailer and tools. No support cars. No fancy motorhome stuff. Run whatever you brung. Call it the Iowa Ultimate Streetcar Challenge. It was an idea I kicked around but I have no time to make it happen at this point in my life. If someone else wanted to run with it feel free.

This sounds like it would be a ton of fun.

The drag week comment also got me thinking about magazine and social media coverage. Is there anyone among the group that runs the events that is social media savvy? We have all seen the stupid boring rerun crap that gets a following just by getting it out there on a larger scale I would think it would be twice as effective for fun events like these.

-Tim

[GrabberGT]

Like others have said here. Cost! is the major detractor for me. An in that I dont mean just entry fee. Travel, lodging, consumables... are all factored in. I have a good life but see anything more than a couple hours away to be a major event due to those costs. For example... even though I couldnt go due to the car not being ready, the Run to the Alamo event was only 4 hrs away but travel, hotel, and food costs alone, made this an event which was going to eat into my family vacation funds. Right now, I can attend a USCA event in the spring 5 miles from my house... no travel costs at all but I am watching my tires to make sure I dont have to buy new for when it does come around.

[BMR Sales]

Yep. Especially on road courses at the big venues (Daytona, Gingerman, Sebring, Road America, etc.). Track rental, insurance, and travel, expenses, and lodging for the organizers gets quickly past $30K (and much more) for a weekend. If you have 100 cars come out, entry fees are reasonable... but if you only have 30, then either entry fees go way up or the guys running the event lose big money.



I Agree. I was at Sebring this last weekend racing ChumpCar & I did some Volunteering for USCA when I could spare some time. With the Expense of a Track like Sebring, if the USCA didn't have ChumpCar to piggy-back the Weekend with, you could never have an Event at a Track like this for 26 Cars! Sebring Costs $20,000 a Day Plus. ChumpCar used the Track Saturday & USCA Sunday. ChumpCar had 96 Cars @ $1200 apiece Entry Fee = $115,200, USCA had 26 Cars @ $500 Fee = $13,000.

So the Key to doing events like these is to have a Lot More cars

[71RS/SS396]

At 100 entrants (EASY to do in the South West region) and $250.00, I find it hard to believe you can't put on a great social driving event for that money. Eliminate the timing equipment, focus on the touring and hitch the event to other venues, and it starts working out pretty quickly. As was pointed out before, the upcoming Hotchkis Autocross is a whopping $100.00 for a 3 day weekend. All these other companies seem to be able to do track days at big name tracks for 100.00-200.00 a day. Why are we having trouble with it? If the cost gets offset by sponsors coming out to the event, great; but as soon as prize money gets passed out, it turns into a competition.

I'm involved with enough of the smaller events to know what they cost. I've been the event organizer for a few of them. I know what the sponsors are paying to be associated with the events and I don't envy the guys like Bill, Brian and Jimi that have to find a way to make it enjoyable and keep the grids full and the sponsors coming back. I think that we need to have a bigger focus on the "gateway drug" to moving on to the big show, and I think that goes back to what Bill said and how this whole segment started a decade ago. The little guy with a stockish Camaro/Challenger/Mustang has to have a place to play just as much as the guy with the 150k Camaro/Challenger/Mustang. Its getting the new blood in that keeps it alive, not the same folks with the new build.

I'd like to know what big name tracks you're doing events at for $100-$200 at? I'm a member at VIR and it costs me $175 per day at a discounted rate for being a member, if I bring a non-member guest it's $350 for them. Novice coaching is included but advanced is an additional cost. When you rent the track privately, you are responsible for insurance, course workers, medical staff.... at an additional cost above the track rental fee. John Parsons post is pretty accurate as to what the cost of a big name track is.

I agree that there should be a few classes based on driver experience but not necessarily based on the mods. Imho people focus way too much on the fact they aren't going to be competitive without xyz mods done to their car instead of investing their time and money into driving school, Mary Pozzi kicked a lot of our butts on leaf springs.

[Smittys]

It seems to me there is a fine line between drinking beer and racing.

If you want a party have a party.

I go to events to have a good time and race. I am not a bad driver and don't consider myself a pro either. I race a truck and I am not going to win. But I do improve at every event and get closer to the fast guys. That is what I try to achieve at every event improvement.

Pro verse Joes what the hell difference does this make we are racing a stop watch. Where do you draw the line? Sponsor, car builder, manufacture, Driving instructor, seat time, weight, import, power or Ball size.

It gets to me when people say Mark has a advantage. Why because he is smart? His Job? He runs a lot less events then others. How many events have Me, Kyle, Bret, Danny, Ken, Ryan, Todd, Brian and so on have this year? I build cars and have a ton of resources also.

Safety yes we need to be safe. There have been a ton of cars crashed on the autocross this year. K rail in a parking lot with no design factor or guard rail at a designed race track which is safer?

I just got back from Sebring. Im here to tell you that was one of the best tracks I have ever been on. It was bad azz. If you check yourself at the gate and drive to your abilities you will be fine. Get a free instructor I will guarantee you go faster. There was a Porsche there running autocross doing ok he got a instructor and out ran a ton of good drivers after that.

There was also a guy there in a 2011 F-250 Ford Truck ( yes that is correct ) He had the most fun of anyone there x10. Ran the whole event. He improved 16 seconds on the autocross. He is hooked. Why did he come out?..... He saw a VW on tv doing it.


Cost Cost.... I understand but have a hard time with this. A lot of these cars have really expensive parts on them. If your parts list is north of 50k which a lot are I don't see how affording a few events is a problem.

I don't care what event you do they all cost money. Dollar for mile you cant beat running a event with a road coarse.

[71RS/SS396]

It seems to me there is a fine line between drinking beer and racing.

If you want a party have a party.

I go to events to have a good time and race. I am not a bad driver and don't consider myself a pro either. I race a truck and I am not going to win. But I do improve at every event and get closer to the fast guys. That is what I try to achieve at every event improvement.

Pro verse Joes what the hell difference does this make we are racing a stop watch. Where do you draw the line? Sponsor, car builder, manufacture, Driving instructor, seat time, weight, import, power or Ball size.

It gets to me when people say Mark has a advantage. Why because he is smart? His Job? He runs a lot less events then others. How many events have Me, Kyle, Bret, Danny, Ken, Ryan, Todd, Brian and so on have this year? I build cars and have a ton of resources also.

Safety yes we need to be safe. There have been a ton of cars crashed on the autocross this year. K rail in a parking lot with no design factor or guard rail at a designed race track which is safer?

I just got back from Sebring. Im here to tell you that was one of the best tracks I have ever been on. It was bad azz. If you check yourself at the gate and drive to your abilities you will be fine. Get a free instructor I will guarantee you go faster. There was a Porsche there running autocross doing ok he got a instructor and out ran a ton of good drivers after that.

There was also a guy there in a 2011 F-250 Ford Truck ( yes that is correct ) He had the most fun of anyone there x10. Ran the whole event. He improved 16 seconds on the autocross. He is hooked. Why did he come out?..... He saw a VW on tv doing it.


Cost Cost.... I understand but have a hard time with this. A lot of these cars have really expensive parts on them. If your parts list is north of 50k which a lot are I don't see how affording a few events is a problem.

I don't care what event you do they all cost money. Dollar for mile you cant beat running a event with a road coarse.
I think we've done plenty of drinking in the parking lot after the racing was done for the day. :naughty::drive::Alchy:

[Smittys]

Or Jim Beam.

[71RS/SS396]

Or Jim Beam.

I prefer Crowne!

[badazz81z28]

I'd like to know what big name tracks you're doing events at for $100-$200 at? I'm a member at VIR and it costs me $175 per day at a discounted rate for being a member, if I bring a non-member guest it's $350 for them. Novice coaching is included but advanced is an additional cost. When you rent the track privately, you are responsible for insurance, course workers, medical staff.... at an additional cost above the track rental fee. John Parsons post is pretty accurate as to what the cost of a big name track is.

I agree that there should be a few classes based on driver experience but not necessarily based on the mods. Imho people focus way too much on the fact they aren't going to be competitive without xyz mods done to their car instead of investing their time and money into driving school, Mary Pozzi kicked a lot of our butts on leaf springs.

She did pretty well on leafs, but still wasn't in the class of DSE cars driven by Kyle and Brian. Mary has evolved to an Morrison front frame, a Hotchkis 3 link to now an IRS. I think this enough states that leafs hold you back if you want to be in the tough competition crowd. Mary is not the average "joe"

[71RS/SS396]

She did pretty well on leafs, but still wasn't in the class of DSE cars driven by Kyle and Brian. Mary has evolved to an Morrison front frame, a Hotchkis 3 link to now an IRS. I think this enough states that leafs hold you back if you want to be in the tough competition crowd. Mary is not the average "joe"

Putting whatever suspension you choose under the car doesn't instantly make you fast, there simply is no substitute for driver training and seat time, getting training on the proper techniques is going to improve your performance far more than any part you install.

[chevelletiger]

"Pro verse Joes what the hell difference does this make we are racing a stop watch. Where do you draw the line Driving instructor, seat time, weight, import, power or Ball size."


Well if you read the optima rules,it does state no pro drivers,i would consider mark a pro driver,the guy gets paid to r and d cars for gm at there proving grounds.yes hes smart,yes hes talented at building and designing cars no one ever said he wasnt,but these events need to be set so the novice,intermediate,and pros have there own class to"race against the clock"it makes it fun to try too win in your class.just like having a big truck or any larger car they cant get faster times due to weight...well if you have a tube frame like rob at no limit! Hahaha!its like trying to play with a pro .
baller,there too far ahead in there craft.

And, yes weight class would be fair.thats why you cant put a honda civic or an s2000 in an autocross vs a vintage iron those little cars will spank us most of the time.
Thats my 2cents.not trying to fuss people. I do have an opinion.
Phil

[SRD art]

Lots of good input.

Who's your market, and who do you want at your events? Remember the good old days when you drank lemonade and took a spirited stroll through the windy roads of the hills? That can still happen but from one point of view there is the reality that the dilemma we're trying to solve is inevitably creating the result that some folks are complaining about.

If you market pro touring events well, you'll get more participants. You get more participants you get more $ coming in which could equate to lower entrance fees. You get more people out you get more sponsors that want to join in. You get more sponsors you get more commercialized. You get more commercialized you get more competition based. You get more competition based and the lemonade stand closes down and we're no different than other big racing events. The sport is still young and many of us are still in the back roads and lemonade mentality but that's likely not going to last forever. Hopefully we're a different enough breed to remember to congratulate the guy that just beat you and the other way around. But I see that just like any sport there could come a point when we're all just drivers who show up for a piece of the action.

To that end of things I say why bark about it and not accept and embrace it? I like what our soldier said about expenses, sounds like we have similar salaries, lol! I have to set money aside slowly for decent parts and it's taken me 3 years to get my car to the point I feel I won't be near the slower track time end of things. Therefore if I lay down the cash to go to an event it has to be a good value, and how cool would it be to win some of that back and pay for at least part of my going to the event? There's my competitive side talking.

On the other hand I think it's very appropriate to keep the good friends and lemonade events alive, I would love to attend an event like that with the big name folks. Just kick back, rub shoulders, be able to talk one on one about what works and what doesn't, and run some low pressure fun laps on the course. The thing with that is that these type events may always remain the same 30 or 40 guys, and maybe that's the way it should be? It's hard to picture a BIG event where you can genuinely do that.

So taking all that has been said so far we can see some trends-

Event Type A
Lower Cost fees
More events in more locations
Piggy Back with other venues

Event Type B
Keep it fun and non competitive
It costs a lot to rent a facility
You dumped a ton of $ into your car so you aught to be able to afford the larger entrance fee

I left the space between on purpose. The way it seems to be unfolding is there are two different Pro touring mindsets that can and maybe should exist simultaneously. One group competes, one group simply gets together.

Let the big sponsors handle the competitive ones. All the little guys that just want to race can attend those and still keep their homes. Heck they even have a chance to win a few $. The events would be more often and more of 'em around the country and piggy backing keeps entrance fees to $50-$100/ day. This should probably be limited to exclude road racing.

For the big players that can and want to attend the more casual big $ events and have the big wallet to do it, go for it! It's fun, close knit, and a positive experience. You don't have to deal with knuckle heads that think because they have 17" wheels they can go 100 mph through a slalom, everybody is respectful of the racing you're doing and you have a safe good time.

Looking around, something tells me that what I've suggested above has already started and is simply following the evolution of any other racing venue. With a division and two types of events, in the end we all fit in where we can and get what we want.

Back to the original question of where is this sport headed and your concern about the low numbers, if you want high entrance numbers and a good return on your investment, run type A events.

If you want to hang out with the boys and have fun, run type B events.

[SRD art]

"Pro verse Joes what the hell difference does this make we are racing a stop watch. Where do you draw the line Driving instructor, seat time, weight, import, power or Ball size."


Well if you read the optima rules,it does state no pro drivers,i would consider mark a pro driver,the guy gets paid to r and d cars for gm at there proving grounds.yes hes smart,yes hes talented at building and designing cars no one ever said he wasnt,but these events need to be set so the novice,intermediate,and pros have there own class to"race against the clock"it makes it fun to try too win in your class.just like having a big truck or any larger car they cant get faster times due to weight...well if you have a tube frame like rob at no limit! Hahaha!its like trying to play with a pro .
baller,there too far ahead in there craft.

And, yes weight class would be fair.thats why you cant put a honda civic or an s2000 in an autocross vs a vintage iron those little cars will spank us most of the time.
Thats my 2cents.not trying to fuss people. I do have an opinion.
Phil

Amen Phil!

I see even a weight class being an issue though. I'm very much new to this sort of driving. My car weighs probably close to many high dollar (with experienced driver) cars, and I don't have near the seat time or power to weight ratio to keep up. I just got disqualified by default.

If I run 33-35 seconds on a course along with 10 other cars, and Mary runs 28-30 seconds on the same course along with 10 other cars, that seems like a logical way to classify. if you're sneaky semi or pro driver and get into the slower class by sandbagging, as soon as you cross the line and run quicker than your class range you're in with the next faster cars class, period. If we're getting plenty of runs we can get a few time trails and then choose which class we're in, write that class on the window with shoe polish, and then do your best to improve times throughout the day and within your class range. Sounds a lot like how amateur drag racing works, and that works well.

[SSLance]

This discussion doesn't sound that much different than the ones going on inside the SCCA trying to figure out how to get the PT cars to show up and run in the new CAM classes. In fact, it's VERY similar.... We should be happy that the discussions are going on instead of the ideas just being kicked to the curb due to low entry numbers. I know I am.

The big disconnect between the two types of events being dicussed here are the road courses, much like were discussed last year about this same time. I don't know the answer, but it's a valid question. Like Chris said above, if the driver checks himself at the gate and drives within his or her means, they'll be fine on a road course and most likely have the most fun they've ever had in their cars along the way.

It is intimidating though and an option to pay less to attend these big events and skip the road course portion might just bridge that gap. How much less, is up to the promoters.

[71RS/SS396]

I don't want to see these events get ruled to death, that's one of the reasons I have no desire to run in SCCA events, we are starting to see a lot more crossover from guys in scca because they are tired of the rules nazi bs and folks skirting the rules.
Lance, the problem with allowing some folks to run just auto-x at these multi discipline events is the overall cost of the venue is the same for the promoter so there's no motivation to offer this.
I think prize money should be kept out of this as well, it changes the way people act.

[badazz81z28]

Putting whatever suspension you choose under the car doesn't instantly make you fast, there simply is no substitute for driver training and seat time, getting training on the proper techniques is going to improve your performance far more than any part you install.


Tim, I agree. You just can't hop into a $100K 1970 Camaro and rule the pavement, but it does help. Brian is going to be faster in his 71 Camaro than he will be in my stock frame/Leaf 78 Camaro. You need both to have a competitive edge.

[SSLance]

USCA now allows a participant to enter just the D&E and Road Rally portion for a small entry fee I believe and they are already there with the Speed Stop, Autocross and Road Course portions up and running. Wouldn't it just be some additional revenue for them to collect a bit more and let a few more cars run the autocross and Speedstop? And possibly that might bring even more entrants to the event?

The downside to the rest of the entrants is possibly a few less chances at those courses for them, but that is still better than no event at all to go to.

I'm with you on the rules...run what you brung and see how you stack up.

[eric1967]

I don't want to see these events get ruled to death, that's one of the reasons I have no desire to run in SCCA events, we are starting to see a lot more crossover from guys in scca because they are tired of the rules nazi bs and folks skirting the rules.
Lance, the problem with allowing some folks to run just auto-x at these multi discipline events is the overall cost of the venue is the same for the promoter so there's no motivation to offer this.
I think prize money should be kept out of this as well, it changes the way people act.

Tim is right you get too many rules the certain cars don't fit in. We are not racing for big money anyway. Our main goal should be to improve each time out. It really should not mater if somebody has more seat time or better equipment. If you ask 99% of those guys will help you & give you advice. I really enjoyed the events I attended this year. I just hope we do not get to the point that there is no events to attend.

[BMR Sales]

Lance, the problem with allowing some folks to run just auto-x at these multi discipline events is the overall cost of the venue is the same for the promoter so there's no motivation to offer this.
.

This I disagree with. If you Open it up to include more people, you would increase the Revenue to pay the Venue and you would bring in New Blood that will help down the Road.

[IndyDave]

I don't want to see these events get ruled to death, that's one of the reasons I have no desire to run in SCCA events, we are starting to see a lot more crossover from guys in scca because they are tired of the rules nazi bs and folks skirting the rules.
Lance, the problem with allowing some folks to run just auto-x at these multi discipline events is the overall cost of the venue is the same for the promoter so there's no motivation to offer this.
I think prize money should be kept out of this as well, it changes the way people act.

Hence why CAM was created. One of the internal stated objectives of CAM is to keep the rules as open as possible. If the rules won't fit on one sheet of paper, there are too many rules. That's why you see some of the so called SCCA "Rules Nazis" are so upset over CAM and it's also why CAM's rules making process is separated from the normal path within SCCA. Three people are making rules decisions for CAM with input from people involved in CAM as well as from outside the SCCA including other sanctioning bodies involved in the PT world.

It's really too late to "pull in the reigns" much on specifications without making a bunch of people's cars illegal. Besides, rules are kind of the antithesis of what hot rodding is about to begin with. The people who are the caretakers of CAM inside the SCCA understand this.

[DTM Racing]

I'd like to know what big name tracks you're doing events at for $100-$200 at? I'm a member at VIR and it costs me $175 per day at a discounted rate for being a member, if I bring a non-member guest it's $350 for them. Novice coaching is included but advanced is an additional cost. When you rent the track privately, you are responsible for insurance, course workers, medical staff.... at an additional cost above the track rental fee. John Parsons post is pretty accurate as to what the cost of a big name track is.



Buttonwillow, Streets of Willow, Autoclub Speedway all $130-190. Just had a under $200 event at Laguna Seca a month ago. For a social track day/speed event we don't need to be playing on legacy tracks. Take away the timing equipment and insurance goes down pretty fast.

[minendrews68]

I too like the cruise events. At the end of a cruise maybe meet and have a dinner at a nice restaurant or something. A lot of good camaraderie.

[TheJDMan]

Here in the Washington DC SCCA region, I can attend a couple different sanctioned SOLO events two or three times a month at $40 per. No overnight lodging required and I can compete for a legitimate championship. If I want to get on the track, I'm located about equal distance between VIR and Summit Point both of which host multiple SCCA, NASA and TrackDaze track day events each month. If I want competition, I can enter some type of sanctioned event nearly every weekend. For me to be interested in any USCA event it would have to offer something unique and fun at a reasonable price.

I would like to see more open road races in the US like Silver State, Big Bend and Sandhills or hill climbs like Pike's Peak. What would really be fun would be some sort of timed hill climb event up the "Tail of the Dragon" in Deal's Gap, NC. but I doubt that would ever be possible due to politics. Here's another thought, the Pike's Peak hill climb is held on National Forest land so the precedence for such an event on government land has been set. I wonder if there could be some timed event on a section of the Blue Ridge Parkway especially since different sections of the parkway are run by different agencies in several states. It might be possible to find one of those agencies willing to close a section of the parkway to the public for a weekend especially if the event were able to generate income for said agency. Now that I think about it, I remember seeing a Porsche club rally run on the parkway .

[Todd in Vancouver]

In full disclosure I've never been to a event Bill has done as I do live a fair ways out from getting to them. It is on my bucket list but I'm still building my car so it will be a while still. What I can share is my experience this year as my first year getting into this type of racing with the ZL1 I purchased to start getting some experience while building my other car.

First, I joined the local AutoX club and will have done a total of 9 days of AutoX at a grand total of $55 per day. We use a huge flat area of Tarmac at an out of the way airport on weekends and it is a lot of fun and cheap. We use SCCA rules and I do question classing when my ZL1 is in with Z06 that are a 1,000lbs lighter, but its all in fun, so whatever.

The challenge I've run into is these AutoX clubs are heavily import influenced so some of these courses make the cone spacing for a Miata which isn't so easy to fit my 5th Gen ZL. This lead me to seek out the Corvette club who also do AutoX and they were happy to have me along and it was a BLAST. Bigger AutoX set up and I had a lot of fun, but still in AS with the Z06's which are really freakin hard to catch. But I'm getting to be a better driver.

I've also got to do some Road Course racing and it really isn't hard to find a decent track at $250-$350 a day and that will equal anywhere from 1.5-2.5 hours of seat time. We have some great tracks in the area with The Ridge, Seattle International Raceway, etc.

What I'm getting at is maybe with cost being such a big issue with so many people that maybe it's time to seek out smaller venues with lower costs so you don't need a Huge turnout to cover the costs. If you came to Washington State there are plenty of tracks at good costs and you'll draw from the surrounding states and Canada. BTW, the Casino near The Ridge, which was new, had a racers deal at $55/night so it's very affordable to go and race.

Also, there needs to be a clear division between the more experienced drivers. I do NOT belong on the track or in the class with the likes of some of the drivers who show up at these events. We don't need to re-invent the wheel here and people should be classed like they do in Drag racing according to their speeds and safety equipment.

Lastly, I joined the group over on C5 when I got my new car and they do one Huge event a year and they get a big turnout. It's all encompassing, Drag, AutoX, car show, social and vendors row. There is talk of a road course and it has been done in the past but limited success. That is supported by smaller local events put on by other board members/moderators all over the country and kept on a much smaller scale. These are small and some of them are just a cruise and social, but it's what the members want and not what someone wants to promote. No offence intended and this post asking is the first step to getting to what works for everyone.

[GrabberGT]

Another obstacle some might have is getting the car to and from the event. I venture to say that those with a truck and trailer are in the minority here. We all would love to be able to drive our cars hundreds of miles to an event, race it, then drive it home but the consequences far out weigh the reward if something goes wrong. Events closer to home might help not only with the travel expenses but also the peace of mind of just being able to make it to the event and back home without too much risk. AAA will tow you up to 200 miles. I wonder how many people wanting to attend these events live beyond the 200 mile range.

I drove my car 2400 miles to Vegas and back last year for OUSCI. Greatest road trip of my life... until... I made it 900 miles on the way home before catastrophe struck. Luckily my insurance had 100 miles of towing to get me to the uhaul in Amarillo. We rented a trailer and waited there for family with a truck to drive another 4 hrs to come pick us up. Not a good time at all. In addition, besides the towing costs, I missed an extra day of work and my Dad missed his flight home and an extra week of work. I hate to think of what may have happened if this had been further away from home.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Another obstacle some might have is getting the car to and from the event. I venture to say that those with a truck and trailer are in the minority here. We all would love to be able to drive our cars hundreds of miles to an event, race it, then drive it home but the consequences far out weigh the reward if something goes wrong. Events closer to home might help not only with the travel expenses but also the peace of mind of just being able to make it to the event and back home without too much risk. AAA will tow you up to 200 miles. I wonder how many people wanting to attend these events live beyond the 200 mile range.

I drove my car 2400 miles to Vegas and back last year for OUSCI. Greatest road trip of my life... until... I made it 900 miles on the way home before catastrophe struck. Luckily my insurance had 100 miles of towing to get me to the uhaul in Amarillo. We rented a trailer and waited there for family with a truck to drive another 4 hrs to come pick us up. Not a good time at all. In addition, besides the towing costs, I missed an extra day of work and my Dad missed his flight home and an extra week of work. I hate to think of what may have happened if this had been further away from home.

Very good point Chris. I'd take my ZL on a longer trip as it still has warranty but an older car, no matter how much care we take building them, can have issues. It happened this year when I raced at The Ridge and a friend of mine had his 911 catch fire, luckily for him I had another buddy who was racing his Z06 and he put the 911 in his trailer and let the 911 guy drive his Z06 home. Funny part was they both own shops only a few blocks from each other but didn't know each other. They do now and it all worked out.

Something I'd really have to think about on a long haul with my'67.

[BMR Sales]

Here in the Washington DC SCCA region, I can attend a couple different sanctioned SOLO events two or three times a month at $40 per. No overnight lodging required and I can compete for a legitimate championship. If I want to get on the track, I'm located about equal distance between VIR and Summit Point both of which host multiple SCCA, NASA and TrackDaze track day events each month. For me to be interested in any USCS event it would have to offer something unique and fun at a reasonable price.

I would like to see more open road races in the US like Silver State, Big Bend and Sandhills or hill climbs like Pike's Peak. What would really be kick ass would be some sort of timed hill climb event up the Dragons Tail. I doubt that would ever be possible due to politics, but can you imagine? Here's another thought, the Pike's Peak hill climb is held on National Forest land so the precedence for such an event on government land has been set. I wonder if there could be some timed event on a section of the Blue Ridge Parkway especially since different sections of the parkway are run by different agencies in several states. It might be possible to find one of those agencies willing to close a section of the parkway to the public for a weekend especially if the event were able to generate income for said agency. Now THAT would be unique.

There was just a Hillclimb put on by the Carolina Regions of SCCA - a friend of mine does it every year. I know there are some Hillclimbs in Pennsylvania as well

[JEFFTATE]

I think we should have events where everyone runs for their time only , regardless of equipment , driving experience , skill, or budget.
No weight classes , no joe vs. pro .
Run what you brung and admire the other guy if he's faster .. take all the jealousy out of the equation .
But , at the end of the event , have a top ten shootout ( cause it's fun and it keeps participants attention and strive going )
The overall winner gets a little trophy and bragging rights .

We just need enough participants at these events to pay the bills .
The sponsors can advertise, compare, and test their equipment.
If they are the fastest , so be it .

I run these events to learn from the faster guys , and look at their cars .
I just want a venue to drive fast and not get a ticket on the street .
And I love to drive fast on the road courses and autocrosses.
I don't care if I beat anybody's time .( just my own from the previous lap )

[nokones]

I have always viewed autocrossing as a social event inner-mixed with some competition. Autocrossing is fun and is a very safe way to have fun with your car. I have been autocrossing for over 30 years and I always come early and leave late. It is a great venue to meet people and their cars.

I like the Ultimate Street Car Association Optima Challenge concept with the different segments. I would like to see more events like the USCA events throughout the country. Even SCCA is trying to bring back the american muscle street cars by offering the new CAM classes. The SCCA is also reintroducing/promoting the Solo Trial Events.

What I like about autocrossing, it is essentially safe and fun providing the courses can be designed smooth and flowing and without hazardous obstacles. I pride my car very much and I prefer not to take the risk of damaging my car. The risks kinda take the fun factor out of the sport.

I do like the USCA structured events with the different segments. I don't know if USCA is planning to make changes to their events next year. I don't know what their target attendance goal was for their events in order to make it a business sense adventure. It appeared that USCA experienced the low turn outs as you mentioned for your events.

I don't know if it was an issue that the competitors had too many options insofar as numerous events, or if it was the $500 entry fee, or the fact it was the locations of the events. I personally think it would be very cool to run at some of the iconic race tracks like Daytona but, I wonder if the speeds they were driving at exceeded the driving skills of some of the drivers and/or the safety factor of the cars on the track. Some of their events had cars colliding with the walls.

I would hope that USCA and other organizations will take those factors in consideration in the interest of safety. Sustained speeds in excess of 150 MPH down the straights is no doubt fun but, should we really need to be at those speeds without the necessary safety equipment?

I truly would like to see more organized events throughout the country like the USCA events but, with a little more safety in mind so that we don't damage our cars and jeopardize our personal safety.

These are my current thoughts at the moment. Yes, I do intend to run at several of these types of events in 2015.

[nokones]

To support what I was trying to say in my previous posting about safety, did anyone see the news clip on the drag race mishap at Pikes Peak where a second generation Camaro and a double Nickle Chevrolet were racing and the double Nickle lost it and rolled and the driver walked away from his heavy damaged prized car?

This was an unfortunate incident and these types of incidents do occur when we exceed the dynamics of the equipment of our vehicles. This driver was very lucky to walk away but his car was heavy damaged.

I would hope that the organizers of these fun events will consider the safety factor before we engage in the high speed events where hazardous objects such as walls, light poles, and plants boxes are nearby and can be hit by a car. It only takes one incident to ruin the fun factor for everyone.

Our street cars are not properly equipped with the necessary safety equipment for some racing venues.

[Bill Howell]

To support what I was trying to say in my previous posting about safety, did anyone see the news clip on the drag race mishap at Pikes Peak where a second generation Camaro and a double Nickle Chevrolet were racing and the double Nickle lost it and rolled and the driver walked away from his heavy damaged prized car?

This was an unfortunate incident and these types of incidents do occur when we exceed the dynamics of the equipment of our vehicles. This driver was very lucky to walk away but his car was heavy damaged.

I would hope that the organizers of these fun events will consider the safety factor before we engage in the high speed events where hazardous objects such as walls, light poles, and plants boxes are nearby and can be hit by a car. It only takes one incident to ruin the fun factor for everyone.

Our street cars are not properly equipped with the necessary safety equipment for some racing venues.

Thanks for the best post yet. I have preached and shouted this for a year now and have meet resistance from both participants and yes, even sponsors. So much so that folks higher up the food chain than myself "suggested strongly" that I keep my mouth shut about all of this safety talk. Even went as far to say that it was "hurting" the event segment of the hobby.
WELL, I would rather upset their agenda than see a friend get hurt or worse by allowing a dangerous situation get out of hand.

We as participants want it both ways. We want street cars that are comfortable to drive weekly but the freedom to race it monthly if there is a venue.
This was all fine and good when we were doing it for fun, however when competition eased into the mix, more hp, more speed, big money participants, specific propose built "event cars" coming on the scene, yet no or very little safety improvements required is when I said NO MAS.

Reading thru this thread I can see that for the most part, those that have commented have said exactly what I suspected. Get back to more cruising oriented/less competition oriented direction. Only a few really want to "RACE" anyway and there are already dozens of venues for that.
As we as promoters have pressed more toward competition based events, I have found we narrow the real PT base and also are starting to compete with already established venues and programs. Neither of those work with the original business model.

Thanks for the input guys, you confirmed what I thought was the situation. In the future you will see me headed back to the "roots" of what we did 10 years ago with the first RTTHs and running away from competition based events. This year has proven that market is way over crowded for our small nitch anyway and that as bad as I hate to type this, a late model C-5 or C-6 with some very simple mods will outperform any of our cars anyway when matched with equally talented drivers. The basic fact of weight difference doesn't discount the value of a musclecar but it certainly will stop you from being competitive, when completing against something 500-600-800 pounds lighter.

I have done a "pilot program" this year and very happy with the results and new people we have seen come into the hobby. No stress, and no directives from those with agendas. Just fun, and events I look forward to attending instead of dreading it. Look for more of that from me next year. :)

[Finch]

Lots of great responses on here so really happy to see the level of involvement.

This question really stemmed from what several of us are viewing as the over saturation of events in the PT market. When you look back a couple years, there were less than half of what is available now, and they sold out with great times and stories coming from the gatherings. Now this year alone the number of events has almost doubled and the result of that explosion is every event out there being less than half full. While this is great for those looking purely at the number of laps vs. cost, it is not something that can be sustained. The down side to this is promoters losing money at each event, less eyes on the sponsor’s brands; reduced social activity due to the smaller crowds etc. The sponsors seeing the same 30 people at every event who already have their product does them no good from a marketing standpoint, so I expect to speak the loudest with their $$$ for next year.

So how does this relate to the OP's question? I feel the PT market will get divided to the point allowing some new trend to pop up and steal the attn of the masses. This is due to events like USCA possibly pushing more focus on the import or exotic side to get the numbers they need, which could drive the costs even higher, events from ASCS are moving away from stand alone PT focused events to teaming up with larger existing events to focus on introducing people to the sport of auto crossing and the fun factor, GG will continue to expand their events carving out the car show folks, and the new SCCA CAM class will suck up all those stuck in the middle.

So, will we see something new come up in the next year or so, or are PT events still alive and well??? You have to admit that we are all less focused on planning our year out ahead of time since there are so many options out there.

I know my new enjoyment is off road desert racing, but I may be a little on the extreme side.

[badazz81z28]

Lots of great responses on here so really happy to see the level of involvement.

This question really stemmed from what several of us are viewing as the over saturation of events in the PT market. When you look back a couple years, there were less than half of what is available now, and they sold out with great times and stories coming from the gatherings. Now this year alone the number of events has almost doubled and the result of that explosion is every event out there being less than half full. While this is great for those looking purely at the number of laps vs. cost, it is not something that can be sustained. The down side to this is promoters losing money at each event, less eyes on the sponsor’s brands; reduced social activity due to the smaller crowds etc. The sponsors seeing the same 30 people at every event who already have their product does them no good from a marketing standpoint, so I expect to speak the loudest with their $$$ for next year.

So how does this relate to the OP's question? I feel the PT market will get divided to the point allowing some new trend to pop up and steal the attn of the masses. This is due to events like USCA possibly pushing more focus on the import or exotic side to get the numbers they need, which could drive the costs even higher, events from ASCS are moving away from stand alone PT focused events to teaming up with larger existing events to focus on introducing people to the sport of auto crossing and the fun factor, GG will continue to expand their events carving out the car show folks, and the new SCCA CAM class will suck up all those stuck in the middle.

So, will we see something new come up in the next year or so, or are PT events still alive and well??? You have to admit that we are all less focused on planning our year out ahead of time since there are so many options out there.

I know my new enjoyment is off road desert racing, but I may be a little on the extreme side.


There definitely needs to be a good balance. The interest gains as you bring new people in. Before RTTM in 2010 or so I had no idea people auto crossed modernized classic cars. Just in this short of time, my 78 Camaro now has an LS engine, I have a 70 Camaro with a bunch of DSE parts (Which I knew nothing of DSE prior). People like Brian can get people interested and it works. There just needs to be less events and ways to cut the cost. We all want the best parts for our cars, but darn are they expensive! Oh BTW, my wife thanks you for my new hobby ;)

Trying to explain why a set of DSE headers is $2300 is quite challenging

[Payton King]

I am late to the party as always...Bill, what about partnering with NASA when they are doing HPDE and maybe having them carve out a section for the Pro-touring guys (with there own place in the paddock to keep us together). They send different groups out a different times, just have us all go out together in one group or 2 groups if too many cars. I am sure it would be a big hit to see all of the old junk out there at the same time for the regular racing/HDPE crowd. That would be for the big track stuff, for the autocross find a parking lot close to the venue or maybe rent something at the venue. That would cut down on your cost, the sponsors cost and also introduce the sponsors to another segment of potential customers.

[Bill Howell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeoxt_6_Y3g#t=67

With speeds now approaching 130-140-150 here is a very timely video from recently at circuit of the Americas.
It shows how quickly things can go bad at speeds. You still want to run around without a full cage?

[1966longroof]

And that is a GS car. Which is basically stock, other than safety items, (eg. cage, fire system, etc).

[BonzoHansen]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eeoxt_6_Y3g#t=67

With speeds now approaching 130-140-150 here is a very timely video from recently at circuit of the Americas.
It shows how quickly things can go bad at speeds. You still want to run around without a full cage?
No. I had so much fun at rtts but as I thought about it and talked to a few folks, including a good conversation with Ron sutton at ousci last year, I came to realize that I really shouldn't be tracking my car at 125+ as it stands today. Too many responsibilities at home. I can afford to do events but not to keep up with the jones'. That is a fools folly. To do it right includes a cage, safety equipment, truck and trailer, etc. then add all the parts I'd need too. My last name isn't Earnhardt I'm no race car driver. So power tour/rtth events are my goals now. No open tracks at wot.

[Red67Mustang]

I've never attended an OUSCI event or an ASCS event - not because I've lacked the interest, rather because they are too few and too far away. Speaking for myself - busy life of running a business, raising kids and keeping a happy wife leaves precious little time for cross country multiple-day excursions.

My take (outside looking in) is that these series won't really ever get significantly attended ( by thousands in lieu of just 10's or 100's) because they are too hard to attend. Not to mention the perception that it's for six figure cars only.

That's why the SCCA's CAM class (of which I am a participant) is gaining popularity so quickly. It's just $40 per event in my region (WDCR), is local, well organized and there are events about every other weekend.

Add to this events such as "Friday At The Track" and similar HPDEs at nearby road courses and there's a pretty full menu. With SCCA regions all across the country running events every other weekend... That's potential for massive growth into the 1,000s of PT cars overall.

IMHO 20 or so highly specialized events spread all over the country will always (most likely) just be attended by the same select few.

That said, others have suggested the concept of franchising into regions or developing strategic partnerships with SCCA or NASA... Those are great ideas to expand beyond just a few guys having fun together - if growth is truly the desire.

[GrabberGT]

I've just attended a local AutoX event put on by our North Texas Camaro Club and had a blast. They rented the local AutoX parking lot and paid one of the AutoX clubs to come out and run the event which included cone shagging. Cost was 75.00 per person and we got 20 runs each. Participation was cap'd at 45 to ensure we all got the most time we could and still pay the bills. We did one in the spring that was only 45/person. Venues vary in cost and we did the cone shagging. Add a cruise and dinner somewhere to cap off the day and there you have it. A relatively cheap and local Pro-Touring event. I see these being the type of events most of us want. Something in our back yard and with lots of seat time. SCCA is great at the local stuff but lacking in seat time.... to be continued. Breakfast time.

[Quikbrd]

Bill, I had attended the last two RTTC events as a spectator, to see if it was something I might want to do (of'course, I already knew I wanted to do it, but the car wasn't ready yet)
I had a great time at those and greatly looked forward to 2014 to start experiencing these events.
When the USCA was formed, it sounded too good to be true, me racing at Laguna Seca? Really?
I had to develop a race day schedule to plan my year. I was prepared to go to El Torro in February, but then the ASCS event got put on hold, then cancelled, I was disappointed, but I still had the USCA to look forward to. I had a great time at USCA Laguna Seca and did quite well, especially for a rookie! My buddies, who also showed interest in going all backed down due to cost,,,$500
Thankfully, they came to support me on Sunday (Track Day) and they all had wished that they had spent the cash, seeing what a great time being had by all.
BTW, they are all planning to go next year, if it is still available to them. We have been auto crossing as a group all year, stating that it allows us to legally drive our cars the way we want to, but the reality is that the Road Course is the huge thrill that allows us to drive our cars the way we want to!
Again, this year, myself as a rookie, on the road course, I have never taken my transmission out of DRIVE (TH400), I just drove the line to the best of my ability and enjoyed the hell out of it!
So now, 6 months after the first USCA event, I am hooked on this stuff and so are my freinds, you remember the guys that didn't want to spend that much? They are doing Track Days. And that brings me to another point,,,, I didn't know anything about track days, I now know that if I want to run my car at Laguna Seca, I can do it without the USCA, I can do it with the Shelby Club, Trackmasters, etc, etc.
So, since we now know that the "Big Bucket List Tracks" are available to everyone, we as a PT group don't have to focus on them, I ran a couple of AutoCrosses at Crows Landing here in NorCal, a former Air Base, it was INCREDIBLE, top speeds in the straight always approching 100 mph. And this venue would be very similar to El Toro. Also, there are tracks like Thunderhill, now opened up to 5 miles long, with a skid pad area large enough for an autocross. Another thing I would like to mention, we keep talking about big tracks and AutoCross, but let's not forget the "SpeedStop Challenge" that's way fun!
So, to finally come to a point,,,,,we want fun track time, doesn't have to be a famous track, a reasonable price, include social time and you have a winner!
PS, along with a "PRO class" to separate the big boys from the home garage guys, you could have a 275 and smaller tire group, which covers most of the real street guys anyway.

[vintageracer]

What's the next BIG thing?

Japanese cars after this great run dollar wise on European cars.

Would you like Soy with your Rice?

[Red67Mustang]

So, to finally come to a point,,,,,we want fun track time, doesn't have to be a famous track, a reasonable price, include social time and you have a winner!


X2 on the above! Add to this 'easy to get to' and it's a home run.

[Bonehead]

What is the next new trend? I heard it was gonna be slapper bars and air shocks with 900000 pounds of pressure in em!

Its going to be EPIC.

[MidnightSpecial]

As a newcomer to the pro touring scene I can say, at least in my area, that the idea of taking an old derelict and making it handle is still very new. Since I am still deep in project mode I get the usual "So what are you planning?" I respond "Well I would love to make it after a pro touring mindset", which then that statement is met with a look similar to that of a Labrador Retriever trying to figure out what command you are giving it.

Its still very much a niche community with a high barrier to entry. The investment to the rusty clapped out car, parts, paint, wheels, brakes, lightweight additions, suspension, racing seats, roll cage, 6 point harness, etc., etc. Its overwhelming for most people on the fringe. Even I have questioned if I really want to go this path due to the long term cost.

People will sit around and gawk about how awesome the cars they see online are but they will never make the plunge to join the community. For instance, most of the race aficionados I know just go buy a $5,000 Miata and huck it around then find it laughable my potential parts list goes over $20,000, and that's my SMALL list. There is nothing wrong with that, if your goal is racing only, there are much cheaper ways to race than a full on pro-touring build. You also have to consider there are a VERY finite amount of classic cars left in this country. We lose more and more every year that cannot be replenished...therefore that barrier to entry will only get more steep. I am 26 now and 6 years ago when I began seriously looking at cars, I could get a running and driving camaro, chevelle, mustang, etc for $5,000....in my area you can't get a roller for less than $13,000. I got very lucky with my car but it was after 6 years of searching and it isnt the most desirable of cars, especially for making the best times.

In regard to getting people out to these events I don't have the answers. Hell I have never been to an autocross event as a spectator, much less a contestant so my opinion may be mud. This isnt by choice, I just havent had the opportunity. But I think I represent the person this sport is trying to go after. Someone interested but not heavily(financially) invested. I am the person that needs the push to get locked into the sport. To grow the sport it has to become far more accessible on the local level. Grass roots if you will. I think everyone involved with the community does a great job of promotion. The vendors do a great job of making as many parts as they can and sell them at the lowest price possible. The community itself is incredibly helpful, kind, and inspiring. But I think everyone involved has to understand the current niche community pro touring inhabits.

I think the most significant question to ask to any of the ambassadors of the sport is what is the end goal for the community? Is it to grow exponentially? To entice future generations? Hold what we have now? Push the limits of automotive potential?

If growth isn't the goal then what is? For a personally greedy reason I would love for the sport to be the biggest thing in this country so I could pick up a pair of Forgelines for the price of Cragar D-windows. haha

Edit: Sorry for the novel, blame it on the Fat Tire I am drinking.

[Bill Howell]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ZafJW8Ao0#t=114

Safety is overrated.... lap belts are fine, no need for nets, head restraints. No need for cages....

[ace_xp2]

Yeah, the safety equipment the pt crowd heads out with would have a lot of pros scared as hell. I can't pretend that lack of safety isn't appealing, but at the same time am fearful of the first loss of life that will definitely bring the safety requisites out should these events even manage to survive a catastrophe like that.

I haven't been to these events but if it's not made perfectly clear that you are seriously endangering your life going 10/10ths in a 60s vehicle that can generate the grip and shear velocity these cars can that is a pretty serious oversight. Vehicles like these will not provide sufficient safety to make getting out alive likely without a cage, a four point, hans and a good seat at the least.

[srh3trinity]

I think safety is the biggest detractor for me. To do any big tracks, I would want a cage, racing seat and harness and Hans, but the flipside is if I had all of that, I wouldn't feel safe with the car on the road especially with any family in the car. If I feel the need to consistently drive tracks, I would probably buy a 98-02 fbody and build it for that purpose.

[SSLance]

I think we are all in agreement that we’ll all take as much autocross, speedstop, and cruising we can get in at the big events. The question is mainly in regards to road course action.

I've gone back and forth on the participating in road course action with my car, from newbie taking all I can get, to serious HPDE time with instructors honing my driving skills, to deciding not to participate due to safety concerns, and back to participating…at a fairly high level…but with a dash of restraint thrown in for good measure.

I've had numerous cars spin out on road courses directly in front of me (at least 10 times so far) and I've had a couple of small "offs" myself. My offs were all from losing the front and pushing coming out of a corner, never bad enough to completely lift or lose momentum though. The spins in front of me were ALL directly related to the other driver over driving their cars entering a corner…I could see almost all of them coming from my seat well before they happened. Thankfully, none of them had any encounters with a hard object, they were all able to get their cars pointed the right direction and continue on.

Here is a picture from Gateway at the USCA event

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

It’s the TV chase car, following our own Rodney Prouty who is following Stacey Herman in her beautiful Chevelle. We all know Rodney is a pretty experienced driver yet he chose to run in the novice group on the road course to gain road course experience while not feeling the pressure to go faster. Stacey had never done any of this type of driving before, yet she was out there hustling her car around the course learning how to do it and having a blast. I talked with both of them quite a bit that day and both were having a blast. Stacey even looped her car around once, but kept on going and learning how to get better at road course driving with the help of an instructor. I bet Stacey would tell you all today that she was happy that she did that segment with her car and by the smile that was on her face that day, I bet she’d do it again if given the chance. We all know Rodney is doing it again.

My point with all of this is, you don’t have to try to keep up with the fastest of the fastest at any of these driving experience events. All you should be doing is driving within your limits and the limits of your car and enjoying the time on the track. If someone is faster than you, point them by at the first chance and let them go. We aren't racing for money here, there is no reason to try to drive over your head with so much at risk.

I would get up to 100-110 mph in NASCAR turns 3 and 4 at Gateway and was happy with that. A couple of times my instructor mentioned that I could go faster but I just said no, I’m happy with this. A LOT of cars would walk away from me on that part of the track, but once we got back into the twisties I could run them back down again and to me, that was MUCH more fun…and safer. At the NASA HPDE at Heartland Park Topeka the front stretch was LONG and fast…I’d get into 5th gear there and just cruise up over Alpha 1 and into turn 1..again at around 100-110 mph. Could I have been going a lot faster through there? Sure…but I wasn't comfortable going faster into that section and didn't feel the need nor any pressure to try to go faster through that part. I much preferred trying to hone my craft getting through the corners faster than trying to go fast in a straight or almost straight line.

My original intention at the USCA event at Gateway was to run 1 or 2 segments on the road course at 7/10s then pack the car up and head home, mainly because I’d heard stories of close walls and difficult corners and I didn't want to wad my car up or worse. Once I learned the course, got a feel for it, and had plenty of instruction to teach me how to get around it safely, I continued on and ran 4 and a half segments out of 5 before calling it a day. Never once did I get a feeling of being in an unsafe spot or feel like I was putting myself at risk. I listened to my car, kept an eye on the tires, brakes, and the feel of the drivetrain, and I drove within my capabilities and comfort level…and had a blast.

I’ll take full advantage of doing this type of event again, multiple times…in 2015…if given that chance to do it with a group that creates the same type of on track environment that the USCA did at Gateway.

[BMR Sales]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3ZafJW8Ao0#t=114

Safety is overrated.... lap belts are fine, no need for nets, head restraints. No need for cages....

I don't right seat Instruct anymore due to lack of Safety in some cars and the Speed that previously the cars were not capable of. Not to mention that a lot of Drivers are not capable of handling their cars. Most Guys build their cars fast first, safety second and their Driving Training comes a distant third or fourth. But most of these same guys think they are Race Car Drivers.

[BMR Sales]

I would get up to 100-110 mph in NASCAR turns 3 and 4 at Gateway and was happy with that. A couple of times my instructor mentioned that I could go faster but I just said no, I’m happy with this.

You are both Wise and a Rare Bird.

[SSLance]

You are both Wise and a Rare Bird.

Thank you.

I just can't imagine putting myself or the car I've spent countless hours building at risk just to go faster than I feel comfortable going in a straight (or slightly curved) line.

I'm not sure how a race director of any sort could control this from their end. It has to be done from the driver's seat only. I'm certain the race directors want nothing more than for every driver on the course to drive within themselves over anything else. What can be done to get the drivers themselves to do this?

[GrabberGT]

Thank you.

I just can't imagine putting myself or the car I've spent countless hours building at risk just to go faster than I feel comfortable going in a straight (or slightly curved) line.

I'm not sure how a race director of any sort could control this from their end. It has to be done from the driver's seat only. I'm certain the race directors want nothing more than for every driver on the course to drive within themselves over anything else. What can be done to get the drivers themselves to do this?

I agree with all you've said and would love to hear that side of it on the show. Lets also not forget though that its not the speed that gets you, its coming to an unexpected and sudden stop that does. The car in front of you is just as important in keeping you safe as your are. The car in front of you is a live potential obstacle that any minute could change direction. Is your car ready for that no matter how fast you are or are not going?

Im not arguing against tracking our cars as I was surprised at how much I enjoyed it the one and only time I ran on one. Just adding to the safety concerns other may or may not be thinking of. Not "if" but "when" i track my car again, I plan to take a similar approach as you describe above but slower still. I do not have a roll bar.

How do you slow people down??? Chicane.

[SSLance]

The car in front of you is just as important in keeping you safe as your are. The car in front of you is a live potential obstacle that any minute could change direction. Is your car ready for that no matter how fast you are or are not going?



It's really more about is the driver ready, not if the car is ready. The driver has to be aware of the situation around him at all times. When a car spins in front of you, it typically keeps going the direction it was traveling to begin with, it just might not be pointing the same way. It isn't like it is going to just stop right in front of you when you are both traveling the same general speed.

I've come up over the top of a blind crest only to have a car sliding sideways in front of me, I've followed a car pretty closely into a tight fast corner only to have it spin and slide sideways right in front of me, and I've been behind several cars that lost it either entering or exiting a corner that I could tell were going to spin long before they did. The driver just has to be ready to react in a way that keeps your car under control while slowing to avoid contact with the other car. If your reactions aren't fast or smooth enough to handle that quickly, just don't get up that close to the cars in front of you to give yourself more time to react.

Again, we aren't racing for money here...drive within yourselves. I haven't had an instructor yet that would tell me anything different.

I really don't have anything against the guys that want to run their cars faster on these tracks as well. As long as they are in their respective run groups and are comfortable running around each other and at those speeds...go for it. Their cars typically have more safety gear, more tire, more brakes, and are built for running faster. No reason an event can't include 2 or 3 different run groups to allow the drivers to run on track with other cars of respective speed and ability.

[nokones]

Sometimes chicanes can be your worst enemy and will get you in trouble real quick. Some course designers like to use chicanes to slow you down in a fast sections. In most cases, it is best to leave the chicane out and let the car go straight. Cars can get upset very quickly when all of sudden it is being jerked around very abruptly and the car will slide into a fixed object.

In order to keep the speeds down you need shorter straights.

[72BBSwinger]

Have a 275 class and a 295 or 315 class. Any DOT tire in those sizes, maybe besides a Hoosier lol. That would even the playing field considerably IMO. It would also make thing more fun, less expensive and bring speeds down a tad.

[BMR Sales]

Sometimes chicanes can be your worst enemy and will get you in trouble real quick. Some course designers like to use chicanes to slow you down in a fast sections. In most cases, it is best to leave the chicane out and let the car go straight. Cars can get upset very quickly when all of sudden it is being jerked around very abruptly and the car will slide into a fixed object.

In order to keep the speeds down you need shorter straights.

Yep

[TheJDMan]

The fact of the matter is, track days are not racing at all. Despite what many believe, track days are just high speed driving events, either timed or untimed, where the guy in front of you waves you by. I raced karts in the WKA for many years. I know what true wheel to wheel racing is. I have the tire marks on the kart to prove it. I can tell you the guy in front does NOT wave you by. More to the point, an HPDE session isn't even close to the intensity of racing.

The fact that a few people always seem to manage to drive off track at HPDE events is best summed up by Harry Callahan in Magnum Force, "A man's got to know his limitations". No amount of safety rules will make up for driving over your ability.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2011/02/K86-1.jpg

[Cobra 498]

If you think Briggs powered Karts are tough you should try Formula cars: Ford, F-2000 or Atlantic where touching wheels will give you a "real ride".

[nokones]

Another thought on safety regarding the Hot Lap Challenges at USCA type events is hold the entire event at facilities such as large airports like SCCA National Solo Event at the Lincoln Airport in Nebraska. There is no chance on hitting any fixed objects at an airport facility with a huge tramac like Lincoln. Even some Club-Owned facilties like Thunder Hill Raceway Park in Willows, CA; Buttonwillow Raceway in Buttonwillow, CA; or Willow Springs near Rosamond, CA are examples where an USCA event could be held. Most Club-Owned Facilities are a tad more safety friendly because the lack of tire barriers/walls and other fixed objects near the turns.

Airport facilties may pose some issues such as timing and scoring on the Hot Lap segments unless use you can incorporate the transponder scoring system at those facilties. I'm sure that can be worked out.

I know, these facilties are not as sexy as Daytona or Texas but, safety should be the utmost importance for everyone in order for these events to prosper well into the future. I think the cost of hosting events at Airport or Club Facilities may be a whole lot cheaper than the Nascar type facilities.

Yes, I do like to go fast and I am very well aware of my limitations but, stuff does happen. I prefer to not wad up my car so I can attend the next event and not sit on the fence or watch it on MAVTV and I would hate to see someone else be in that same predicament.

Just another thought I had this morning.

[BMR Sales]

If you think Briggs powered Karts are tough you should try Formula cars: Ford, F-2000 or Atlantic where touching wheels will give you a "real ride".

I've been there both as the Launcher and the Launchee (Watkins Glen & Palm Beach International)

[BMR Sales]

But I still race Karts - 90 Minute Enduro on Sunday!

[Smittys]

I am not trying to say safety is not important but... If I am driving on any road anywhere and I loose brakes it is way more dangerous then losing them on a race track. We can put 1000 crash videos on here. Auto crossing with K rail, Light poles trees curbs..... is pretty dangerous also. Hitting a pole at 50 will hurt.

Fyi anyone near Pittsburg should come out this weekend there is 60 cars registered for the event and it is going to be a good one!

[MonzaRacer]

One thought here.
I may not have much of a dog in this hunt but what if you put together a way to LIMIT top speed of cars based on inspections. A simple GPS based box can be built and make anyone attending have to incorporate the harness hook up. Simple ignition kill(rather than fuel based), hooks in to either a fuse for a main ground that completely kills car over set speed.
Guy rolls in with 78 Camaro and set of Cooper Cobras and side pipes and a mullet he get set at say 70-75, as long as front end and brakes check as road worthy.
Next guy has ex bracket car with 6/8 point, swing out bars, removable rear cross bar, V/W rated tires and helmet/basic suit limit too say 100 and so on.
I INTEND to install some form of cage/bar in my cars. On the Monza hoping I can get some help in mix/matching parts at Ridetech to get a Tigercage figured out.
I do look towards reasonably priced tires over 40TW Hoosiers or others. I am looking at 200+ for TW as I cant afford to replace a set of tires going out, race, replace again.
This is just not in budget.
I DO how ever want to see if my car will work like I intend both road course and autocross.
I understand safety I also understand if I am required to invest more in my safety equipment for one time outing at a road course to SEE if car and I will work/function/get satisfaction there, all bets are OFF. Ill run off ramps and dream till I get a better job/business/rich dead uncle/lottery ticket.
A perfectly reasonable thing would be for someone to see if we could get some safety equipment people out to help owners/drivers SEE its use and importance, actually possibly build a reasonably priced amateur grade that still protects.
People like Bret at ridetech,BMR guys,Speed Tech guys, etc all have a vested interest in building safe stuff(cars) and having GOOD high end equipment, but they also have the funds to do so.
Reason I pulled these names are they are familiar and on top of my mind only.
Safety equipment could be produced and sold by all of the relevant parts brands but branded through them. Like Ridetech have a line of parts that could be had to match chassis. The payoff would be added brand loyalty, limited cost to customer and business. And promote more safety.
The producer makes basic profit, other handlers get small stipend or free advertising.
While I would love to own a full on road course safety equipment but after research its out of my league.
Just like I go to drag strip, I am told my car is only rated for say 7.50-8.0 in 1/8th mile so be it. I want to go faster I step up.
The GPS control would not be hard to build, heck even an old android device or Iphone could possibly do it but hard wired would make all players on same page.
Plug provides direct fused battery power, and kills car if you step out of speed bounds.
KISS is rule when on a budget, the guy with 1"x 1/8" drive shaft loop gets laughed at.
BUT honest and effective works. My buddy's car had 2x2 connectors stacked on sub and rear rails and welded in, big heavy but it worked. The DS loop was to say the least WELL over engineered, as in like 1/4" material x 3" or 4" . Also big pain in ASS.
BUT we did build rear suspension out of scrap metal. USed S0 slapper bars, cut off plates. I used some angle i had, welded to stock spring plates, welded the slapper bar to the angle and reinforced in back, swapped in a 3/8 bolt for snubber and guess what, between the pinion angle I set up and the slapper bars we only adjusted once and the car was a 60ft monster, always ran same numbers every night. Only tuning we needed was air pressure in tires. With worn out tires consistent, with slicks little faster, all running worn out 283(guy who bought it after he sold car took it apart and 7 pistons fell apart!) or mild 350.
Setting bar too high will eliminate people from participating at all unless they just come too spectate. Give us all a taste and many will step up.
BUT, there really needs to be some meeting in the middle, bring some basic safety, but keep it REAL LIFE affordable.
AS for me I intend to tuck my cage/bars as tight as I can, make sure they dont intrude into my car and its daily life.
If you build a $100k pro car you just built many of us our dream that is unobtanium.
Give me realistic goals, steps to better stuff. Heck I heard of a track down south that made drivers sell specific parts after X# of years, still servicable, but with age on it. Harness can be recertified, why not un wrecked helmets, HANS, etc.
Reasonably priced safety I can live with, new price keeps me at home dreaming. And saving (and hoping rich uncle passes soon).
As for track days, several medium events, spread across country.
Pick 4,5,6 big track days with road course events.
Sell levels in 3 or 4 ranges. smaller events can be 2-3 days, Kind of like Midwest Musclecar Challenge started out as. Kind of like Power tour with track time but not an exhausting fun week. Start on say a Friday, for fun/registration, let Saturday be the big day of fun and "competition" then wrap up after church,fun, lunch, awards etc.
I dont care if you bring said 78 Camaro in with 1000hp twin turbo LSx, your still limited by setup.
Biggest issue is keeping safety and cost limitations in check so as to not slap down little guy. Saw a guy with a LS powered Miata, went some where and they limited him in rpm, he had great day and agreed he would add some parts.
Remember, everyone HAS to crawl before they walk, some just dont want to have to buy a $1000 helmet to walk across living room.
And if an even cost a person a weeks pay OR more to run, your not gonna bring the car count.
Again sponsors are gonna play BIG part in defraying costs of events, cross/events as in pairing with other groups/sharing track time.
We all work together, we win and have fun and NOT break the little guys bank or vacation fund.
Sorry I got of on safety cost but it does play into WHY some events go big and others fall down on car count.
Power tour has daily join, or you can buy in for long haul at any point in event and drive as far as you can. did that at all event I went to for the goodie bag and event food(helped defray attendance cost).
Now one guy said no motorhomes, just tow a trailer. So the guy who sacrificed for 10 yrs saving for his motel on wheels so family can come with is out. Not good idea.
I know guys who drag race and live in their trucks most times, maybe a cheap motel to shower and wash clothes. His job is 4 10-12 hr days and most money goes to racing. He races every year, has no family to speak of and home is parents place left in will too him. It has a modest home, huge pole barn with full shop where he get s ready to race the next year. guy lived his race dreams but has no HOME to come too.
Everyone here for most part has home/wife/kids/job and those will most always take precedence over doing anything with cars, read it here all the time.
Actually if say couple events happened near Disney,Dollywood,other kid friendly venue, many might be able to expand vacation plans to little car fun time also. Most people I know doing the mouse ears thing save a lot, spend a week making that venue richer and giving kids a dream vacation. and it IS a sacrifice they generally dont regret, but they regret having some adult fun later on.
Every side needs to take a breath and meet somewhere useful or we all just go home and quit. Hit off ramps and local burger joints.
Maybe even someone like MSD (or others) could build said limit module, base it off a random cyl kill feature and let event controllers set it.
A bigger $500 event would be a once a year for me. sub $250 Might be able to hit couple of those, maybe. $100 venues are pretty easy to hit.
Saturday night cruise in/autocross, Sunday event could have small (non denominational) service for the church types, get a mid morning brunch, run off if small competition is ran night before and awards. Keep that weekend simple and fun. It could even be set up on holiday 3 day weekends, maybe near kids venue.
I remember one Power Tour event was near Kentucky kingdom, several dads dropped cars off, shook hands went and had few hours with kids. Great idea.
Just thoughts, ideas. Opinions.

[TheJDMan]

To be honest, we had drivers launch karts all the time climbing open wheels. I personally had one driver climb my rear wheel and his kart ended up on top of me. And just for the record, that B&S powered kart will run 100+ mph on a big track like Summit Point.

I don't have a good answer to the high speed safety issues our cars are now forcing us to address, other than reiterating that each driver has to be responsible for his/her own safety. To paraphrase, "A driver has to know their limitations". If a driver is not comfortable running their car over 100mph, then DON'T. I don't feel putting more rules in place such as "tires cannot be more than two years old" is the solution. My three year old DOT tires are perfectly legal for sustained 70mph hiway use but apparently not for a 20 minute HPDE track session? Such rules only serve to increase the cost to participants while having little real effect on safety.

[DTM Racing]

When it comes to litigation, it's generally not the deceased you have to worry about; it's the surviving family. The litigious nature of this country makes this type of stuff a ticking time bomb.

[gmbdabest]

Bill, will run through the hills be back in pigeon forge in 2015?

[67cougnut]

First off,

Thank you Bill for organizing an event up at Hot August Nights this year!!

It was a small turn out but you'd be surprised how many people had Zero Idea what was happening and where. More publicity would have probably helped. In the future if you decide to do it again, I have no problem hitting the streets local shows etc. with flyers and doing what I can, to get the word out.

I would agree that lack of safety equipment and Talent are of huge concern, Hell that's what attracts me to Auto X:
-I don't have Talent
-Speeds are low enough for the most part to keep it safe with no cage and the lay out is usually big enough to leave room for error
-cheaper then full track days
-last but not least: hitting someones car or someone hitting yours is PROBABLY not going to happen.

With the increasing amount of events being added every year including the addition of all the optima events now, the market is Just flooded with not enough cars to attend and when you really look at the caliber of car it takes to truly compete in these big events the pool of competitors gets even smaller, and for small timers like me who are still in the build process it gets very easy to get caught up in wanting to be competitive but then never completing your rig due to trying to get the latest and greatest and changing this and that, rather then put it together and get some seat time already.


So personally Bill I say setup some fun Events, it should be cheaper to setup, easier to get attendance and promote more of "everyone run what you brung" theme.

If you want to add some competition to it to live'n it up a little, offering an invite to Scottsdale or some sort of tire prize may help.

Just my .02

[GeoffP]

Can't believe I missed this thread before now. Glad to see all the input and my only .02 cents is a echo of what's already been said. More RTTH type events, lower cost, more emphasis on the fun aspect and keep it family oriented. While I have a car that I believe can hold it's own at an Optima event, the driver (me) can't because I just don't have the time or money to gain the necessary experience to do well. I just want to be able to go out to a few well organized events like RTTH, have fun and be safe at the same time. I'll definitely be looking to go to Bill's new venture in Pigeon Forge, the Autorama and CHP's event in 2015 and I'm hoping for another RTTH if nothing else. That would certainly make for a dream event season for me.

Thanks for all you guys do!

[BMR Sales]

With the increasing amount of events being added every year including the addition of all the optima events now, the market is Just flooded with not enough cars to attend and when you really look at the caliber of car it takes to truly compete in these big events the pool of competitors gets even smaller, and for small timers like me who are still in the build process it gets very easy to get caught up in wanting to be competitive but then never completing your rig due to trying to get the latest and greatest and changing this and that, rather then put it together and get some seat time already.





You brought up some good points! With too many events, the Turnouts get lower as people can't afford to go to all of them. When you have small turnouts, the Price goes up if there is a 2nd Event. Then the Price affects what events you choose. We need to have bigger turnouts to encourage people on the edge to come out.

A couple of things about the Optima events - some people seem to fear going thinking they can't compete with some of the established people & companies. It's about competition, but there is also the Social factor. Not everyone is going to Win, but everyone should have a Good time. The other thing about Optima Events, as more Imports & Modern Cars take part in these Events, will the Pro-Touring Guys get discouraged & look elsewhere?

[Red67Mustang]

The other thing about Optima Events, as more Imports & Modern Cars take part in these Events, will the Pro-Touring Guys get discouraged & look elsewhere?

Yes. IMHO if it's not classic American, it's not Pro-Touring.

[SSLance]

I don't know about that, I have fun beating the imports and modern cars at the SCCA events I go to regularly, that's part of the fun.

[nokones]

It is definitely fun to beat up on the foreign cars but, that may not last long if the hot shoe foreign car drivers show up, and they more than likely will show up. Back in the 90's there was a huge Corvette turn-out at the SCCA Solo events. When they merged the Mazda RX7 Twin Turbo cars into the same class all the Corvette drivers left. That also happened when the EVO's were merged in the Street Prepared classes with the Camaro (ESP) and Corvettes (BSP).

[Rat Fink]

I'll add my .02 in here, the cost is the major limiting factor. Right now, my car is not up to the safety standards needed to enjoy one of these events, I autocross, but a race course is out of the question. I definitely don't want to be out there with someone "racing to win" with no experience and my big old Ford, that could spell disaster for me. If the costs was lower, more emphasis on autocross, cruising, speed stop, and some novice class track time, I would love to participate. Driving 10/10ths in my old Ford is a scary idea for all involved, even with the planned upgrades to brakes and suspension. I want it to be on par with a modern car like a Mustang or Camaro, not a 'Vette and certainly not a race car. I like the touring part of pro touring too much to do too much to it.

[BMR Sales]

I don't know about that, I have fun beating the imports and modern cars at the SCCA events I go to regularly, that's part of the fun.

Lance, it is Fun when you are doing the Beating, but when you start getting spanked by Twin Turbo Porsches with Huge Brakes, the fun starts to fade.

For example, years ago I had a Porsche 914 2.0 4 Cylinder Car - it out handled just about anything and was powerful enough to be competitive. Yes I would get passed on the Straights, but I carved them up in the Corners. Then came the Computerized Big HP, Big Brake Cars and I was running around by myself at the back of the field. So I put in a Twin-Plug 911S motor for double the HP, but I also had to upgrade the Brakes etc. After a year of working on it, the other cars had gotten faster too! It got depressing and I sold it (it's in England now).

[nokones]

I think SCCA is trying to bring back the old Solo I events. They are calling these events Solo Trials which is nothing more than a faster autocross course and they are not held on road race courses. I think these events would be a lot of fun and definitely a lot safer.

[BMR Sales]

I'll add my .02 in here, the cost is the major limiting factor. Right now, my car is not up to the safety standards needed to enjoy one of these events, I autocross, but a race course is out of the question. I definitely don't want to be out there with someone "racing to win" with no experience and my big old Ford, that could spell disaster for me. If the costs was lower, more emphasis on autocross, cruising, speed stop, and some novice class track time, I would love to participate. Driving 10/10ths in my old Ford is a scary idea for all involved, even with the planned upgrades to brakes and suspension. I want it to be on par with a modern car like a Mustang or Camaro, not a 'Vette and certainly not a race car. I like the touring part of pro touring too much to do too much to it.

Disaster happens when people drive over their heads!