View Full Version : 67-69 LSx header spy shot...... ???
chicane67
09-26-2005, 08:23 PM
With SEMA just around the corner..... I know some of the guys are not going to make it this year....... so I though I would throw ya a little development/fitment teaser of our new LSx header:
https://www.pro-touring.com/~tylerb/P9140011.JPG
68LSS1
09-26-2005, 08:47 PM
I think I found my Christmas present. I guess I'll have to wait for after SEMA for some more pictures/details?
SatisTraction
09-26-2005, 10:09 PM
they look killer but i have one question. why did you choose that collector design? just curious since all other high HP companies use the 4:1 collector.
chris
that is an excellent collector design. Very impressed! the 4-2-1 collector is a good idea too, but an X pipe or crossover will also do something simliar to what happens with the 4-2-1. Those look killer. Finally a performance header without an oversized stupid collector. However I would hate to hear the price on those, are they equal length also?
TitoJones
09-26-2005, 10:32 PM
No one who knows how to build a high HP header uses a merge 4-1 collector. Look at most any race car, you will see a tri-Y design, of 4-2-1 on most every car. Hooker, Stainless works, Headman, ect build the 4-1 because it is cheap, and usually fits most applications. This is not a product for everyone. This is a product for the guys who know they need high HP in a header that will fit and work like a glove. We worked hand in hand with Burns stainless (http://www.burnsstainless.com/) (THE best in the industry hands down) to construct this header, and it was built for us by the same guys who do 99% of all the Trophy trucks and the C5R LeMans Corvettes. When Katech engines wants a header, they go to our fabricator.
You should see these things out of the car, they are FREAKIN hot!!
Cody- They are as close to equal length as we could get with the space limitations. These are a max effort, direct fit LSX header. The one pictured is for 427+ LSX cars, and should easily make more HP than any other 1st gen header on the market hands down.
Come to booth 52315 to see them in person!!!
Tyler
totally agree with the collector design, are they all going to be stainless with the slip on collector like pictured?
68protouring454
09-26-2005, 10:56 PM
headers look killer, but i would rethink whoever your letting weld the tube adapters and mounting flange gussets on, man those are ugly, and look unsafe
jake
yeah super boogered welds. Tyler have you done any dyno testing with headers? or is it a guessestimate?
TitoJones
09-27-2005, 12:38 AM
I knew someone would mention that. The crossmember is the very first prototype for the direct fit LSX style T56. We had it TIG'd in a hurry so we could get the mock up to the header appointment. Not remotely a production part, and yes, the welds are sloppy. Those of you that have our production X members know what our welds look like.
Tyler
Steve68
09-27-2005, 03:29 AM
So Fellas, when will we see production, and of course the price??? some of you guys don't know but I'm doing the LS swap, I was going with the Stainless works version, but I 'm liking what I was looking at, so times, date, places,prices??? Thanks
after looking at the picture, will they work with the stock crossmember?? it dosen't look like it, so would this be a ATS T-56/LS header swap, and with this crossmember, did you cut the trans tunnel to bring the tranny level with the motor??
andrewb70
09-27-2005, 04:31 AM
Guys,
The headers looks fantastic! I just have one little constructive idea. It could just be the picture, but it looks like the O2 sensor bungs position the sensor with the wire side down slightly. This is not good, since condensation that collects in the header will drip down inside the sensor and shorten its life. Ideally the tip of the O2 sensor should point down slightly at about a 10 degree angle.
Just a suggestion!
Andrew
Nine Ball
09-27-2005, 10:17 AM
Good point Andrew.
Those collectors are the best ones for performance, no doubt about it. The only issue I see is if they remain slip-on style collectors. Slip-ons work great for drag cars running open headers, but on a street car they are prone to leaking and also skewing your O2 sensor readings since they 'suck' air past the slip-on joints, causing our O2 sensors to read inaccurate A/F ratios. We had a hell of a time trying to tune some slip-on style merge collectors on a set of 1-7/8 Dynatech longtubes I had on a previous car. After we welded the slip-ons up, the numbers were steady and easily tuned.
Tony
Steve68
09-27-2005, 07:08 PM
ATS, so, when I put my engine in the car when would I be able to get a set of the headers, ??? Inquiring mind want to know. thanks
andrewb70
09-28-2005, 04:59 AM
Is there an estimated street price?
Andrew
TitoJones
09-28-2005, 10:43 PM
Guys-
This is a full custom header. This is not an off the shelf part like a Stainless Works, or Hooker header. You call us, we have you (or your preferred LSX engine builder) fill out an engine spec sheet. We then build a set of these stepped headers, in your choice of mild steel with ceramic coating, or in full stainless steel to your exact application. I promise you this- you will not find a better fitting, higher hp LSX header for a direct fit 1st gen application (This applies to you 68-72 Nova guys) anywhere. Price will vary on primary tube diamter, and materials, so it's hard to just give out a cost on these custom items.
Cody- The HP numbers are guestimates, but we'd love it if PHR did an LSX header shootout between Street and Performance, Stainless Works, and ATS. The headers will be offered in mild steel (with ceramic coating) or stainless. We can also do with or with out slip fit collectors.
Steve- They should work with a stock crossmember. Our new LSX T56 crossmember is repositioned to sit in the 'notch' in the floor where the OEM piece sat. No cutting of the trans tunnel or floor. We are all about making the direct fit bolt on parts. The collector is also only 1/16" below the frame. They will be ready for sale after the SEMA show. Feel free to call us regarding pricing on these.
Andrew- Great idea. If I recall, the o2 was placed there because of space limitations. It is hard to see, but the collectors point in toward the trans tunnel at the end to ease install of an X pipe. We can put them most anywhere if there is room. We can even put one in each cylinder for data acquisition!
Nineball- I've heard of that issue as well, but Burns feels confident that their materials will not be subjected to this problem. We will also offer fully welded versions when we can.
Tyler
Steve68
09-29-2005, 04:33 AM
Thanks Tyler, I guess I'll have to call and speak with you about what I want and need, Steve
alstainlessworks
10-04-2005, 05:28 AM
Tyler
I would make sure to dyno these headers before making statements like they make 40 HP more than any other header. No offense and not to hijack your thread, but we have had a local company dyno tri y's, 4:1, with and without merge collectors, etc. From the best to the worst header was 8 RWHP on a Mustang dyno with a Z06 Corvette-the tune was optimized for each header and the tetsing was done independently of our shop-they wanted to see for themselved if the claims that other manufacturers made of one header being different than another was true, and they found out through a ton of testing that it was not.
Trust us, we are in the header business and have been for a long time and if we could make 40 more HP with a tri y header, we would do so. We build Tri Y headers for the 64-66 mustangs, so doing one for an early Camaro would not be a problem. Early Mustang guys are hung up on them because they are the same style as the original Shelby Tri Y headers.
As you know, a Tri Y design is much more expensive to build and we have never really seen the cost vs the benefit as being there. Our LS headers retail for $729, and are all 304 s/s, tig welded, 3/8" flanges. Looking at the pictures, I am guessing that your headers will retail for well over $1,000.
Like anything, header design is a always a trade off-we have a header in our shop from one of the biggest Nascar teams that is a 4:1. They run both Tri Y's and 4:1's depending on the track. And that is on an engine with everything optimized to the nth degree, with basically minimal backpressure. The backpressure of the exhaust system will dramatically change what works and what does not. Good luck in the header business and if PHR will do a shoot out let us know-I would be curious to see the results-if they want a full exhaust to do it through, which is really the only way to do so correctly, we would be happy to supply the exhaust system.
Al
Stainless Works
chicane67
10-04-2005, 11:06 AM
Al,
What you need to consider is that this header isnt just your normal "Tri-Y" either. You also can not just drop a set of these onto a dyno 'mule' engine and have them optimized for the package. Each header is built to the specific engine combination.... so much that you have to fill out a rather revealing datasheet before the data is entered into the "X-program" software. So for you to say 8hp difference, well thats believeable..... that is what I would expect from some off the shelf mass produced header.
Trust me, I have been doing discreet exhaust development and analysis for 15+ years to include the instrumentation and data acquisition there of, to know the difference. There is good reason for our consultation with Jack Burns and Jere Stahl..... and there is good reason why General Motors, Katech and Pratt&Miller also choose to do the same on this engine package for their efforts with the C4 / C5 and C6R platforms.
We too are waiting for the call to do a real header shoot out, but if the engine package was set us correctly for use with the specific headers headers, it really wouldnt be a fair comparison for an off the shelf header. The header has to be compared equally, so that means an ATS header has to be made for the engine mule to make this credible.......
Thank you for your interjection. Tyler sure didnt mean to direct this towards your company specifically, but claims by others seem to make lines in the dirt.
The thing is, we have all chewed the same dirt.
Well too me, this all sounds funny, no one here has any real data on anything, and seems like people are just throwing names out to sound good. On one hand we have stainlessworks, their headers don't look like they had any real design put into them, they look like they were built pretty much just so they could bolt in, which would explain the small HP differnces they saw, Pretty basic headers. On the other hand we have ATS headers which in my opinion are pretty much Jack Burns headers, which "look" like they were well thought out and appear to be a very good design, like all his other headers. But the problem is, ATS is throwing out all these big names and claiming with no testing big HP numbers, which IMO is a mistake. And to cover up, are throwing out big names and all kinds of stuff.
On both sides this is pretty shameful. However I would put my money on the ATS headers to be a much better header then the stainlessworks. and possilby could be much better money spent, as they will work with you to find the optimum design, as opposed to a set which should just fit. HOwever I am still wondering just how much these headers are going to cost!!! I say this because for the right price, anyone can have a custom set of headers like these ATS ones for their car, this is not something new. What the advantage to these headers would be, is if you could get them off the shelf for a better price, then a 1 off header.
SatisTraction
10-04-2005, 01:18 PM
those are some nice looking headers but i am not buying the 40HP at all. as much $$$ as drag racers spend and the HUGE LS1 folowing there would be more of them on the market. not to mention the later model model mustang guys. i wonder what kooks would have to say about this thread?
BTW here is a little header reading from www.ls1tech.com
http://www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139142
TitoJones
10-04-2005, 03:04 PM
Some of you still don't understand the whole header design. Drag racers want peak HP, and a top end to really open up the car. Don't know about you, but I'm building my car for the other track. The one that sees every single gear multiple times, goes through 1500 rpm all the way to 6900 rpm, and everything in between. I want a header that makes power through the entire power band, not just the top.
DISCLAIMER:
The ATS Tri-Y header is not for MOST people. It is for road racers, who take their car to the track, and need to get the most power out of their combo's. The fitment of these headers is second to none. The steering box can be removed with th headers IN THE CAR, and can be installed in under 6 minutes. They are as off the shelf as you can get, with a custom made part.
Pricing-
Yody, go price out a set of custom made stainless headers that will fit like these will, and you'd be floored how much you'd spend.
I call on PHR to to some header tests on a new LS7. We'll throw down a complete exhaust from heads to tips to go head to head with S&P and Stainless Works. It may not be quite 40hp, but it will be significant.
Tyler
SatisTraction
10-04-2005, 04:57 PM
actually i want all the HP under the curve that i can get. peaky HP with a narrow power band equals a slow car. ever heard the term dyno queen? i would love to see a dyno comparison with ANY long tube header. why dont you hit up futral motor sports and see if they would be interested in carring your product? they are very large in the LS1 area.
tell you what. screw the dyno. take a car to the track with some of your headers. make a few rounds. swap them with some "other" headers and let us know the time. this is one case where a drag strip would give you a better representation. a drag car is about pure power and does not give a crap about turning. if you make more power then you will finish with the best time. 40 HP would be good for about .5 seconds in the 1/4 on a stock engine.
oh, and price would not be that big of a deal if you actually make 40 hp over the other headers. people bolt on heads and dont get 40 hp on a ls1
I say this because for the right price, anyone can have a custom set of headers like these ATS ones for their car, this is not something new. What the advantage to these headers would be, is if you could get them off the shelf for a better price, then a 1 off header
Tyler, I said that I know how much custom headers cost. They are really expensive. What I said is that, your headers look really good, but for them to be a deal, they would have to be a little cheaper and an off the shelf item for them to be competitive or worth the money.
TitoJones
10-04-2005, 06:44 PM
Tyler, I said that I know how much custom headers cost. They are really expensive. What I said is that, your headers look really good, but for them to be a deal, they would have to be a little cheaper and an off the shelf item for them to be competitive or worth the money.
Ah, I misunderstood.
Yes, they will be cheaper than going to a fabricator and having a 1 off set made, as we have a jig to remake these all day long. But, we don't keep them on the shelf, like I said earlier, we need to get lots of info on your engine package to build a set for you, and have the client spec out the material they are fab'ed in.
Tyler
sounds like a good deal, can't wait to see them at sema, if if they aren't 40HP more(which i kinda doubt) they look like a quality set of headers with excellent ground clearance. gonna make them for a 454 in a firebired??? :)
68protouring454
10-04-2005, 06:48 PM
if you have jig, then how come someone else is making them for you??
jake
You say they fit really good and such but with what primary tube size? even with a 1 7/8"?
TitoJones
10-04-2005, 07:19 PM
if you have jig, then how come someone else is making them for you??
jake
Mostly because we haven't hired a fabricator yet, and I can't TIG weld. We have the guy who fab'ed them up make the headers for us, because they will be exactly like the first set, and that boy can lay out some insane welds.
You say they fit really good and such but with what primary tube size? even with a 1 7/8"?
Cody- The headers in the pic are 1-7/8" tunes, stepped to a 2", then stepped to a 2-1/8" and finally to a 3-1/2" collector.
We do it that way so that if you stuff the biggest tube into the car and it fits perfect, all the other ones you build that are smaller than these will have even more clearance.
Will this shut you up for a while until SEMA?
https://www.pro-touring.com/~tylerb/P9140016.JPG
Tyler
hey! what about that ............................ hmmmm.................................okay good enough :)
EFI69Cam
10-06-2005, 06:18 AM
How well do the seals on the collector pipe junctions work? I thought injected cars needed the headers welded to keep air out so the O2S could work right.
If the tab and bolt junctions work, maybe I can put a merge collector on my headers.
TitoJones
10-06-2005, 10:03 AM
The Burns pieces we buy are hand sanded to fit very tight. The fabricator has not had any leaking issues with the mateials used.
Tyler
Blown353
10-06-2005, 11:19 AM
The Burns pieces we buy are hand sanded to fit very tight. The fabricator has not had any leaking issues with the mateials used.
Tyler
I can also vouch for Burn's work on the merge slip joints. I've dealt with a lot of their headers and the fit is top notch. Never experienced one that leaked. However these were on open Pro-Stock headers on the dyno.
Steve's observation that if they do leak upstream of your O2 sensor which will skew A/F readings is a valid point. I'll agree that if they did leak that would cause problems; the Burns slip-togethers that I have played with all had individual wideband sensors about 6" from the exhaust ports, so there wasn't a worry about leaks in the joints affecting A/F ratios.
Tyler, the headers look good. Glad to see someone doing it RIGHT.
Troy
TitoJones
10-06-2005, 05:40 PM
Tyler, the headers look good. Glad to see someone doing it RIGHT.
Troy-
Thank you. The stigma behind everything we do here at ATS is to make it like it was going on our own cars. (Most of the stuff we make, comes from our own cars.) We don't cut corners, and we are trying to stick to making every single part we make a bolt in, with no welding or extra fab work required.
Tyler
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