Aftermarket first gen subframe - $1800??

[madmax]

Hey everyone,

Thanks for putting up with me. In my midnight wanderings on eBay, I found this: Subframe (http://checkeredracing.com/Camaro.html)

It consists of Mustang II suspension, rack, and QA1 Aluma-Matic Coil Overs... with SFCs and tranny crossmember, and brakes for $2250.

Now subtract the brakes, and add Proma-Stars and you got $1800.

It looks a lot like the Fat Man subframe... does anyone have any idea about how this would handle? I know its no Corvette suspension, but right now I have DS&E's Speed Kit 1. How do you think it would compare to that?

It seems like a pretty decent deal. For those too lazy to visit, I'll copy the description over here:



Upgrade your stock front-end with a direct bolt in frame. This front-end will increase the room in your motor bay, reduced front-end weight and improve your ride down the road or track. Our jig welded frame has stock location body mounts, stock transmission cross-member holes, stock core support mounting holes, stock bumper mounting holes. The frame utilizes tubular control arms, Mustang II Spindles, 11” vented rotors, Mustang II rack, screw in ball joints, QA1 Shocks and Spring, checkout below for a complete list of the standard features:



Direct Bolt In 2" x 3" Front Clip with Body Mounts




Fully Jig Welded




Upper & Lower DOM Control Arms




QA1 EXF Rod Ends with Teflon/Kevlar Races on Upper and Lower Control Arms




Mustang II Rack with Tie Rod Ends




QA1 Aluma-Matic Coil-Over Shocks




QA1 Springs (Your Choice Of Rate)




Screw-in Ball Joints




Mustang II Spindles




11" Vented Ford Brake Rotors




GM Calipers & Brake Pads




Adapter Caliper Brackets




All Bearings, Seals, Dust Caps & Mounting Hardware




Motor Mounts




Steering Joints & Shaft to Hook-Up the Stock Column


Frame Rail Connectors

Options



Drop Spindles - No Extra Cost




Credit for no rotors, calipers and caliper brackets - $525.00




Upgrade to QA1 Proma-Star AL Shocks - $75.00


Upgrade to Wilwood Disc Brakes (not available on drop spindles) - $275.00


Thanks for your imput!

Max

[79T/Aman]

how thick is the frame material?, no anti-dive built in, IMO it's fine for a drag car but not a touring car.

[madmax]

how thick is the frame material?, no anti-dive built in, IMO it's fine for a drag car but not a touring car.

I don't know how thick the frame is. They're not open on Saturdays, and I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with them. I figured the MII suspension would offer better handling than a stock sub, and maybe even the DS&E upper arms.

Plus, everything is new, including the rack. So, at that price, its not bad.

If anyone else has any imput, feel free to correct me :)

Max

[zbugger]

In all honesty, it looks like a drag setup to me, but who knows. I think it would handle ok.

Although..... It makes no mention of any sort of sway bar. Also, the Mustang II is more of a hot rod retrofit than a real performance handling setup. The DS&E stuff on a stock subframe will probably outhandle that one.

[madmax]

In all honesty, it looks like a drag setup to me, but who knows. I think it would handle ok.

Although..... It makes no mention of any sort of sway bar. Also, the Mustang II is more of a hot rod retrofit than a real performance handling setup. The DS&E stuff on a stock subframe will probably outhandle that one.

Yeah, thats what I figured. I thought it was wierd that they didn't say anything about a sway bar.

Oh well, it was a nice thought. I can't cough up enough money for a good C4 or C5 subframe, so I went with the tubular uppers. But $1800 looked mighty appealing, especially with the rack.

Thanks everyone!
Max

[MuscleRodz]

I don't know how thick the frame is. They're not open on Saturdays, and I was just wondering if anyone had any experience with them. I figured the MII suspension would offer better handling than a stock sub, and maybe even the DS&E upper arms.

Plus, everything is new, including the rack. So, at that price, its not bad.

If anyone else has any imput, feel free to correct me :)

Max
You would be much better off with a full DSE conversion. Go out and measure your stock sub rails. 50%-60% larger. MII stuff isn't associated with handling, more for parking lot cruising.

Mike

[madmax]

You would be much better off with a full DSE conversion. Go out and measure your stock sub rails. 50%-60% larger. MII stuff isn't associated with handling, more for parking lot cruising.

Mike

Unfortunately, the full coil-over is out of the question as of right now. I just can't cram that into the budget, so I got their tubular uppers, sway bar, and shocks. I was wondering if the MII would offer better handling than that.

-Max

[79T/Aman]

the MII or pinto set ups were addopted for drag racing for their lighter weight and were never designed to be used on heavier cars and take the side loading that a touring car can do, especialy with today's tires

[Steve Chryssos]

Max,
MII suspension is popular on street rods because it's commonly available and cheap. No one ever said it was good--just better than what came stock on a 1939 Ford.
From the pix, it looks like someone took a typical aftermarket street rod MII kit (crossmember and suspension parts) and built some frame rails around it. For your money, you'll probably get a car that handles, well, like a street rod. While the price is right compared to popular performance clips. I wouldn't touch that clip unless:

A: I saw it installed in an actual car or two. It may look okay lying there on the floor, but "bolting it in--headers, drivetrain alignment, wheel backspacing, etc. is a whole different ballgame. Who knows what kind of problems you may run into during the install.
2: You drove a car that has that clip installed, or got a sparkling reference from someone you know who has (i.e. a P-T member).

If that doesn't turn you off, note that the crossmember welded at 90 degrees to the frame rails with no additional triangulation. Again--pure street rod.

But the most important thing to know is that upgraded stock clips work very well. So play it safe and keep upgrading what you have. Upgraded parts are tried and true. And they're about to get even better!!

[MuscleRodz]

Unfortunately, the full coil-over is out of the question as of right now. I just can't cram that into the budget, so I got their tubular uppers, sway bar, and shocks. I was wondering if the MII would offer better handling than that.

-Max
tubluar lower a-arms......$575
coil over kit..................$475
coil over shocks............$560
coil over springs............$110

total..........................$1720
less jig return.............- $50

total..........................$1670

You said you already have the DSE upper arms and sway bar. Unless my math is wrong how is the DSE setup out of you budget if you are looking at an inferior $1800 subframe? DSE parts are $130 less plus the DSE parts will be cheap to ship in comparison to the sub.

Mike

[madmax]

tubluar lower a-arms......$575
coil over kit..................$475
coil over shocks............$560
coil over springs............$110

total..........................$1720
less jig return.............- $50

total..........................$1670

You said you already have the DSE upper arms and sway bar. Unless my math is wrong how is the DSE setup out of you budget if you are looking at an inferior $1800 subframe? DSE parts are $130 less plus the DSE parts will be cheap to ship in comparison to the sub.

Mike

Well, if this sub had worked out I would have sold the DSE stuff I already have. So, the math with DS&E and a rack would be:

Uppers: $650
Lowers: $575
Coil Kit: $475
Coil Shocks: $560
Coil Springs: $110
Jig: -$50
Rack $800
Shipping: About $100
-------------
=$3220

PLUS whatever a shop would charge to modify the frame for the coil overs, since I can't do that kind of thing myself. A couple hundred? I don't know how many hours it would take but It seems like it is pretty involved.

Other frame:

Frame: $1800
Shipping: $150
----------
= $1950 vs. about $3420

That is pretty significant in my book... but it seems that this set-up would not handle well at all.

I know the DS&E parts are vastly superior to the MII stuff, but I thought it was a way to save nearly $1500 - which I can't afford at the moment. So basically this was a breakdown of the parts I have now vs. this rack which is:

Speed Kit 1 (Uppers, sway bar, lower bushings, replacement Koni shock and spring): $1299
Rack: $800
Shipping: $100
-----------
Total: $2199

So... the aftermarket sub was $249 cheaper... with coil overs and tubular uppers and lowers (albiet is MII).

Hopefully that unravels my thought process behind this thinking!


Thanks for listening to my babble :)

-Max

[TitoJones]

With our new AFX spindle you'll get as good, if not better handling than the full DSE coil over system, plus it is a direct bolt on. Check it out on our website, you can get outfitted with brakes for under $1k.

Tyler

[4RS FED]

With our new AFX spindle you'll get as good, if not better handling than the full DSE coil over system, plus it is a direct bolt on. Check it out on our website, you can get outfitted with brakes for under $1k.

Tyler

great another company JUST making stuff for the stupid 67-69 camaro.

There are other year camaros out there

Poor second gen guys :nopity:

[MarkM66]

great another company JUST making stuff for the stupid 67-69 camaro.

There are other year camaros out there

Poor second gen guys :nopity:

You already have a tall spindle. What exactly do you want?

[TitoJones]

We are making provisions to make our AFX spindle work with the 2nd gens. No more crying about it. :)
Tyler

[Damn True]

great another company JUST making stuff for the stupid 67-69 camaro.

There are other year camaros out there

Poor second gen guys :nopity:



Hey, you have a much better platform to start with. Be glad you aren't one of us masochists trying to cram our square pegs into round holes.

[jeffandre]

We are making provisions to make our AFX spindle work with the 2nd gens. No more crying about it. :)
Tyler
How much will the 2nd Gen spindle and hub assembly cost? I 'upgraded' to a B-body spindle already but haven't got the hub part ironed out yet. If I cannot use the 3rd Gen hubs I have (still have to machine them) I will be looking to find something different.

[4RS FED]

We are making provisions to make our AFX spindle work with the 2nd gens. No more crying about it. :)
Tyler


when you figure it out, please let me know so i can buy a set :git:

[Travis B]

You already have a tall spindle. What exactly do you want?


:lol:

[MarkM66]

How much will the 2nd Gen spindle and hub assembly cost? I 'upgraded' to a B-body spindle already but haven't got the hub part ironed out yet. If I cannot use the 3rd Gen hubs I have (still have to machine them) I will be looking to find something different.

What is the benefit from putting a B-body spindle on a Second Gen?

[MarkM66]

What advantage does the AFX spindle have over the stock 2nd gen spindle?

How much taller is it?

[Steve1968LS2]

Max,
MII suspension is popular on street rods because it's commonly available and cheap. No one ever said it was good--just better than what came stock on a 1939 Ford.
From the pix, it looks like someone took a typical aftermarket street rod MII kit (crossmember and suspension parts) and built some frame rails around it. For your money, you'll probably get a car that handles, well, like a street rod. While the price is right compared to popular performance clips. I wouldn't touch that clip unless:

A: I saw it installed in an actual car or two. It may look okay lying there on the floor, but "bolting it in--headers, drivetrain alignment, wheel backspacing, etc. is a whole different ballgame. Who knows what kind of problems you may run into during the install.
2: You drove a car that has that clip installed, or got a sparkling reference from someone you know who has (i.e. a P-T member).

If that doesn't turn you off, note that the crossmember welded at 90 degrees to the frame rails with no additional triangulation. Again--pure street rod.

But the most important thing to know is that upgraded stock clips work very well. So play it safe and keep upgrading what you have. Upgraded parts are tried and true. And they're about to get even better!!

I have to be politically correct about saying anything bad about advertisers..

But, I will have a front sub for-sale soon.. sounds a lot like the one described. I am replacing it with a C5 deal and my second choice was a modified stock subframe. Whats that tell ya?

The MII stuff is good for what it is. looks nice and is sturdy. Might even out handle a stock subframe with stock components but it was never designed for high performance handling.

I vote stock sub with either GW or DSE A-arms and coil-overs with the ATS spindles. 600 steering box with a beefy sway and call it a day.

[jeffandre]

What is the benefit from putting a B-body spindle on a Second Gen?

Mark,
The positive is that the B-body spindle uses a larger outer bearing, which should help bearing life some. The negatives are the extra cost for the spindle (about $90/pair, from a 96 Caprice), the new bearings/races/seals, and the 3rd Gen rotors I bought to use as hubs (another $70).

Is the larger outer bearing needed? Probably not for my street car, but I will be glad to have better bearings when I finally start spending time at Thunder Hill.

Looks like I will shelf my B-body spindle setup and go with the AFX 2nd Gen spindle when it becomes available as I will save many dozens of hours of time by not having to buld my own custom front brake brackets (I will just buy a system for the front of a C5/C6 Vette, will bolt right on).

[madmax]

I have to be politically correct about saying anything bad about advertisers..

But, I will have a front sub for-sale soon.. sounds a lot like the one described. I am replacing it with a C5 deal and my second choice was a modified stock subframe. Whats that tell ya?

The MII stuff is good for what it is. looks nice and is sturdy. Might even out handle a stock subframe with stock components but it was never designed for high performance handling.

I vote stock sub with either GW or DSE A-arms and coil-overs with the ATS spindles. 600 steering box with a beefy sway and call it a day.

Steve, when you posted about your MII setup it piqued my interest. I know your car, in its original form, was more of a streetfighter/pro-street kind of car, which is the direction that I am heading in. Mine won't be autoXed (I know you have heard this already, but I'm saying it again for the benefit of everyone else) and it would have been nice to fit some fatter tires up front, because it would have a bigger contact patch, plus they look damn cool :).

Right now this is where I am:
DS&E Upper Arms
QA1 Coil-overs
Stock LCAs (w/ Delrin bushings)
DS&E 1 1/8" swaybar
A rack of some sort (which one would anyone recommend? There are a few to choose from)

I think it will be plenty for what I am looking to do, but I was also looking into aftermarket clips for resale value.

Thanks everyone!

--Max

[MuscleRodz]

Put a set of ATS AFX spindles and C5 front brakes on it and be done with it. Should be less than $1k total. An added plus, you don't have to completely tear the front end off the car to do it and should be as good or better than any aftermarket frame.

Mike

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Steve, when you posted about your MII setup it piqued my interest. I know your car, in its original form, was more of a streetfighter/pro-street kind of car, which is the direction that I am heading in. Mine won't be autoXed (I know you have heard this already, but I'm saying it again for the benefit of everyone else) and it would have been nice to fit some fatter tires up front, because it would have a bigger contact patch, plus they look damn cool :).

--Max

For drag racing, the skinnier tires up front will actually be much better than a wider tire. 275s up front look damn cool, though. :3gears:

[madmax]

For drag racing, the skinnier tires up front will actually be much better than a wider tire. 275s up front look damn cool, though. :3gears:

Definitely, Ralph. Weight transfer! Those fat tires up front do look mean, though. I guess the car I'm building is a hybrid. Pro-show-street-ing?

On another note, how much are the AFX spindles going to be by themselves? And, can they be used with anything other than corvette brakes? I've got a set of Wilwoods sitting in my living room curtesy of Precision Brakes, who by the way has been AWESOME with their service.

--Max

[Mean 69]

great another company JUST making stuff for the stupid 67-69 camaro.

Don't worry, there ARE folks out there engineering stuff for second gen's. Stay tuned, coming to a second gen near you very soon.

Oh, and by the way, as far as the second gen suspension in the front being light years ahead of the first gen, don't believe it. It is incrementally better, at best. The front steer makes things better, but it doesn't make it "good." Both platforms need help in many areas.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread, we apologize for the interruption.

Mark

[Q ship]

Don't worry, there ARE folks out there engineering stuff for second gen's. Stay tuned, coming to a second gen near you very soon.
Mark
AAAARRRRGGGGHHHHHHH!!!! You friggin TEASE! :wedgie:

Ahem. I mean, I'm waiting patiently, sir.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve, when you posted about your MII setup it piqued my interest. I know your car, in its original form, was more of a streetfighter/pro-street kind of car, which is the direction that I am heading in. Mine won't be autoXed (I know you have heard this already, but I'm saying it again for the benefit of everyone else) and it would have been nice to fit some fatter tires up front, because it would have a bigger contact patch, plus they look damn cool :).

Right now this is where I am:
DS&E Upper Arms
QA1 Coil-overs
Stock LCAs (w/ Delrin bushings)
DS&E 1 1/8" swaybar
A rack of some sort (which one would anyone recommend? There are a few to choose from)

I think it will be plenty for what I am looking to do, but I was also looking into aftermarket clips for resale value.

Thanks everyone!

--Max

The set-up on Penny now (the MII deal) is great for drag racing and "SOME" handling.. a good choice for a "streetfighter" car.. cheap and it gets the job done.

For high-end handling there are much better options though.. I am a big fan of stock subframes even though Penny will have aftermarket..