What's the Longest you've had a Car in a Paint Shop?

[BMR Sales]

I'll start this by saying it's a Bit of a Rant! In all respect to any Painters here, my experience is that all Painters are Paint Huffing Freaks and can't be Trusted!

My current car has been in the Paint Shop for 6 Months - No Body Work needed. The paint had gone bad from a prior Re-Spray (previous owner) where the Primer hadn't cured before Painting. My Painter who I used to work with at a Large Porsche-BMW Dealership does nice work and has done a car for me before that took longer than expected, but not like this. He said this Job would take 7 Weeks at the longest ("that way when it is done earlier, we will both be happy"). At 4 Weeks, it looked close and he told me it would be done in a week. 2 Weeks later, the car hadn't moved an Inch. Then a Month. Then he decided to join a Reality TV Show (kind of a cross between Car Warriors & OverHaulin) and walked away from his shop for a while. He's not very good at returning calls & texts, but when I got a hold of him, he said he would work some nights and Sundays and have in done in 3 Weeks. 6 Weeks go by and shooting on the Reality TV Show stops (he's only making $1,000 a week doing it), I go visit the car and nothing. I knew when the Show was starting back up and I visited the Shop - he told me it would be done before the Show started back up. The show started back up, he's there for the filming ( I know because BMR is supplying Parts for a couple cars they are doing) and my car is not done. I sent him a Text detailing all the Promises he has made & not delivered on - he called me and got all belligerent with me, finally he said it would be Painted last weekend. You guessed it, I'm still waiting!

[Schwartz Performance]

In our experience it's been close to the same as yours, maybe around 8 months maximum, which didn't require any metal / rust repairs, just bodywork & paint.
Small shops are not that great for quick turnaround, because they find it hard to say "no" to the small jobs. It gives them a chance to do walk away from your job for a couple days.
Bigger shops are better for turnaround but sometimes the quality isn't there because of how it's managed. They could have stuck one of their interns on it with little to no supervision.

Only thing you can do is to be persistent and maybe have a contract in the beginning saying "to not exceed ___ days" or something. Usually it's too late for that though ;)

-Dale

[BMR Sales]

Yeah, too late for a Contract or to get my Deposit back without going to Court. He used to be my friend!

[bovey]

I've never had a problem with paint jail - very fortunate to have a great shop when needed. But I have an engine build that is going on 19 months. Grr.

[BMR Sales]

Also as a Note, I have had problems with Painters for years.

1.In College I had some rust through on a Volvo - I replaced the Fender and had it painted. It looked good til I moved to Florida a couple of months later, then the Paint burned off with the Scorching Sun

2. The 2nd 57 Corvette I restored, I took it to a well respected guy (& Son in Law of one of my Customers) - he never finished it and I never got a Cent Back. The next guy was almost as bad!

3. I thought I had finally a good guy 15 Years ago, he did 3 Cars for me On Time & On Budget, but then I took him a 74 Carrera RS (1 of 54 made). He left it outside most of the Time and I got back in Primer, but then it had Rust on the Bottom of the car!

4. I had another Rare Porsche that a Shop told me it would take 6 Months - they finished it in 3 1/2 Years! He did have a Heart Attack & was out for about a Year.

I guess I'm a Magnet for Paint Ass-Hats in addition to Psycho-Women!

[killer69]

HOW MANY times have we heard this story?????
why do people continue to ignore the warning signs, if you walk into a paint shop and there is one guy and 5 cars covered in dust turn around and walk out!!! what makes you think he is going to work on yours any sooner.

[SSLance]

Paint & body shops aren't that much different than home remodeling contractors, some like to do 1 job at a time, do it right then move on. Others like to get as many jobs as they can and when they get too busy, they just spread themselves around doing a little bit on each job...just to make a show and have a hard time ever finishing any of the jobs.

With either, if you can work it out so that you can pay them weekly, for the work they did THAT WEEK...that is the best way for everyone to stay happy. The last one we had in a restoration shop...the guy had the car for over 10 years... Granted, it was all just paint work, but still... TEN YEARS...

[vintageracer]

Paint and bodymen have RUINED the Restoration and Hot Rod building hobby or I should say BUSINESS!

The customer is a "Dollar Waiting on a Dime!"

The "Dollar" being the customer and "Dime" being the Paint/bodyman! A profession with many liars and cheats!

How's that for blunt evaluation of what I really think!


I can name 10 "Big Money" guys right now that I personally know who built have multiple Big Money cars in the past and who have now QUIT spending their money building cars because because of 1 single issue. Lazy and Lying paint and bodymen. Why? Because the body shop is where the work stops and/or creeps to a slow crawl. You would think the paint guys would be motivated by MONEY. They are not! What they are good at is saying "Yes" to all your requests on the front end when they accept the job and and are great giving creative excuses when the work stops and not producing much of anything. I guess they really are good at 2 things!

A good example.

I was recently asked to stop and look at a noted and well known restoration/repair shop while at a vintage race as the shop and track were in the same city to see the quality of their work, their equipment and their overall facility for a friend of mine looking to have repair work completely on his Shelby GT350. The result of that 45 minute stop and what I told my friend is below:

The shop was in an average industrial complex. Big free standing 12,000 square foot shop. 15-20 old junk cars sitting out front of the shop taking up all but 2 parking spots. Walk inside and see a neat and tidy shop. Nice paint booth, metal fabricating equipment, welders and all the stuff you would expect in a good restoration shop. Looked at the work. Excellent fabrication work, paint work and a lot of attention to detail on assembly.

I reported all this back to my friend. His response was GREAT! I will take the car to them immediately! Wait a minute there Tonto you asked me what the shop was like NOT if I would take a car there? So now he asks the BIG question?

Would I take a car there?

HELL NO!

Remember that 12K square foot shop I spoke of earlier. The guys running this shop were working out of less than 3K square feet and had the rest of the shop FULL OF CARS! Yep, lot's of customers cars just sitting waiting their turn or most likely waiting for the customer who squeals the most to get his/her car done. These guys were proud of the fact that their shop was FULL of cars just sitting there. These guys spent over half of my visit telling what they were doing to this car and that car. They only became a "little" uncomfortable when I asked how long this car or that car had been there. The shortest time on any one car I inquired about was "A Little Less Than 1 Year"!

These guys are NOT in the car restoration/repair business they are in the STORAGE BUSINESS! The sad part is this shop is no different than many other specialty shops. All I can assume is that the business owner's strategy is to charge the customer a per day storage charge for their work as that method will generate MUCH MO MONEY than pricing the actual job since these cars can sit there for YEARS!

Oh and let's not forget to the 15-20 junk cars sitting out in front of the shop "Welcoming" me upon my arrival!

It's a whole lot cheaper and quicker to buy a cosmetically NICE CAR on front end and "Cut It Up" versus building from scratch. Most guys who fool with cars can do the mechanics BUT have to depend upon friends, relatives or hired help for the paint and body work. That's when most projects go into FAILURE MODE!

I know a lot of body guys will flame me for my observations. When you see this "Over and Over Again" over a period of 25 years it's hard to argue with reality! Yes their are some GREAT shops out there that charge properly for their work AND most importantly complete that work in a timely fashion as AGREED! Unfortunately these quality shops continue to become fewer and fewer. These shops are busy and hard to get hooked up with. Why? Because they do what they say they will do in a timely fashion as agreed and they do not STORE CARS! These shops understand the value of that 200 square feet of inside shop space that a stored car occupies is worth far more than what car storage would pay them.

Next time you visit a shop look around and see what's sitting in and around that shop. That alone is probably the best indicator of a shop you might want to consider. Ya quality of work is also a concern. The phrase "Quality Work Takes Time" is BS!

Starting and finishing quality work in a time frame agreed to at the beginning of the project by the service provider and the customer is all we want!

Sadly that has become VERY HARD to find!

[sccacuda]

Call Dennis and see if he will include it in the show...

[71maroesteban]

Body work takes a long time, the guy teaching me has been doing it for almost 50 years I asked him why it cost like 20 grand to paint a car that has no rust and we'll it's simple. If you want to do a great job you will literally sand the same small spot all day then sand that same spot with leveling puddy before you know it 5 hours have gone by and you have finished one little area. Body work takes time and I for one pride myself on doing good work with no bs like of it'll be don't in this amount of time because it won't sometimes you run into things. Body work like any other trade has been taken over by lazy greedy people who take on way to much and don't even do a good job. Every druggie down here claims to be either a body guy or mechanic I won't trust them touching my car

[Rifleman_Racing]

2 weeks. It needed the front frame cut out and replaced, the rear quarters and floor structure rebuilt, both front fenders and hood fixed, and a complete re-paint as the factory white on fords doesn't last. At 3 weeks on ANY job im calling a tow truck and taking it to another shop. The shop one of my cars it at now was just re-leased for a year for $295,000, so if they dont have a good volume of cars moving through they will be out of business VERY fast.

[BMR Sales]

Call Dennis and see if he will include it in the show...

No, because you wouldn't believe how many corners they cut doing TV Shows! A Dent, we don't have time to pull & fix it, let's cover it with Bondo! The corners they cut on Mechanicals is crazy

[saltfuture]

I've had a 78 Trans Am in the body shop for 1 year and 3 months now. Promised time originally? 6 weeks. I had to go read them the riot act about 5 months ago just to get them working on it again.
Things are moving along now, but they just cost themselves two repeat customers with a lot of expendable income, and a huge interest in cars (my brother and I).
My brother had already had 2 cars repainted there, and will never again. I'm teaching myself to do the bodywork and paint for my 71 because I don't trust those guys anymore, and if you want something done right...

[BMR Sales]

I've had a 78 Trans Am in the body shop for 1 year and 3 months now. Promised time originally? 6 weeks. I had to go read them the riot act about 5 months ago just to get them working on it again.
Things are moving along now, but they just cost themselves two repeat customers with a lot of expendable income, and a huge interest in cars (my brother and I).
My brother had already had 2 cars repainted there, and will never again. I'm teaching myself to do the bodywork and paint for my 71 because I don't trust those guys anymore, and if you want something done right...

Yep, that's what these guys don't realize - they cost themselves future work by dicking around. I told him from the beginning that I was going to Flip the car, but it needed to be nice as it only has 40,000 Original Miles & is otherwise perfect and that I had another car to paint when this one was done.

Being in Sales, I realize it's much easier getting repeat business from a Happy Customer vs. finding a New Customer

[SSLance]

That's the problem apparently, there seems to be a line of customers that are already pissed off at other body shops a mile long beating the doors down, so none of them ever really run out of customers...

I know a guy with a shop that does great work, but he charges through the roof and doesn't take on any collision work on the side. He's got a bunch of cars in various stages in his shop as well, but he can only do so much work a month on each of them because that's all the customers can afford.

There has to be a happy medium in there somewhere...

[groho]

Mar 18th and counting. . . .as of two weeks ago the car was back on the suspension, bottom and eng comp painted, and exterior primed. I've got a motor that's eager to be mated! Should be done in the next month or so. I was told 90 days, but we're at that point now. The agreement was 1/3 $ at start, 1/3 $ once primed and blocked, 1/3 $at finish. Is it moving as fast as I wanted, no, but it's given me a nice break to address other issues like motor, interior, steering, etc.

[WallaceMFG]

I guess I'm one of the lucky ones, my car went from bare metal to finished paint in 2 weeks and its one of the best paint jobs I've ever seen

[impala65maniac]

When I worked at my father in laws shop our turn around was at times fairly slow. This had nothing to do with the shop, some customers changed their minds mid way through the job. We finished painting a 1971 442 clone and the guy changes his mind about the firewall. He decides he wants it to have a shaved firewall. This required removing the work already done and plenty of metal work. Then he wanted custom painted graphics from some pinstriper he knew. He didn't like them so we had to literally re-paint the whole car. Car took well over a year to complete. Long story short, make sure you aren't the one holding back progress. We had a guy take a year to pick a color! Bodywork was done and the car was sitting in primer and just waiting on him to pick a color. My 1965 impala took 1 month, working after work and on the weekends. Me and my brother in law working on it. She was pretty straight already and choosing the original color was really easy for me considering I grew up with this car. My old car, a supra. That car took 1 week (my vacation time). Stripped to bare metal, dents fixed, primed and sprayed. Show winning quality in one week, that was the hardest week I have ever worked.

[rustomatic]

Some years ago, in like 2002/3 or so, I totaled my motorcycle, or so I thought. All of the bodywork was shot, and the rear subframe (sportbike) was bent, among other problems--I smacked it into the ground and rode the street on my back through three or so lanes...

It took about 2.5 months to get it back. In that time, I'd bought another bike from a junkyard (yes, it was faster). When I got the bike back, I immediately sold it back to the dealer. I couldn't wait. I'd go insane.

I've never actually had a car at a body shop, except for when I parked at one to go to work (1993?--stupid part-time job in college)...

[shmoov69]

People suck......... Too bad in a person too! DOOH!!

Sorry for your woes man, when my 69 was T-boned, they had it for like 13 months or something stupid. And to make it worse, it went thru 3 different managers and 4 different body men!!! Talk about a cluster....!!

[mmosley]

Went to the shop September 17th, 2013.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1019354#post1019354

I was told that it could be a few months to get to the car, and other cars were ahead of mine. Went to media blast shop mid October.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1026371#post1026371

Repair and fabrication was finally started in late November:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1032471#post1032471

Primered in April:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1060742#post1060742

Ready for paint, May 21st:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1070285#post1070285

Paint June 3rd:
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1072488#post1072488

Came home June 14th, 2014.
https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/101635-1968-Barracuda-in-Plano-Texas?p=1074691#post1074691

It took longer than I would have liked. The shop has one guy that does welding and fabrication work, and one guy that does paint. Some weeks my car was only worked on one day, others the full week. The shop owner would take small jobs in to make a few quick bucks and try to keep the guys all busy. He never lied to me. He only charged me for the hours that they worked on the car, no storage fees or other nonsense. I paid a few weeks worth at a time, after work was done usually. Sometimes I paid a little in advance, but, beyond the initial deposit, I was never asked to pay up front. Cost - about 1/3 more than I expected. Some things could have been done faster I suppose, but the shop rate is not that high, so I can not complain too much. Guys did pretty good work. At the end of it all we are still friends. Now the car is waiting for me to work on it. That is a challenge!

[joesbruiser]

Being in this part of the industry I would like to share my thoughts. Does it take longer to get a paint job than it should ,yes in most cases i do believe it does. Let me say I do not consider myself a body or paint guy i'm a wrench but I can do it with the best of them when I need too.
I run a small 5000 sqft restoration shop that has shown at meadowbrook, amelia island, world of wheels, detroit autorama etc..... We do very nice work and keep a giant backlog without any advertisement. Since we do more than just paint I keep 2 guys that do the mechanic work, one full time body and paint guy, a young person usually a highschool kid to sweep,cleanup,blast parts and then I fill in wherever it is needed because I can do any part of a restoration.This usually keeps things moving very well. We also do a lot of maintenance on our customers cars, this slows things down the worst.Schedule in 3 cars for small stuff and then get into the job and see you have to make a part or wait 2 weeks on a part for a 1918 essex,or a Cord or packard or a apollo gt. Because of this you will never see more than 2 paint and body jobs in my shop at a time. Only 2 of us there can do the paint and body work and you can not get a good product jumping around on 10 cars.
The rotation I do to keep the body guy from getting completely worn out rubbing on the same car for 6 months is we get all the metalwork finished and start the body work once the car goes in prime we will start taking apart the second job,once it is off to the blaster we will get the car blocked and back in primer.The day the second car is back from the blaster we clean it and get all the parts in epoxy and it sits until we finish the first paint job and it starts all over.This seems to work well and we get a good finished product. A complete restoration in or shop on the average car takes about 12-16 months and then its off to the interior shop.
Now I do not usually do "just a paint job" but there is one in the shop now. We are on our 4th week and the car should go in paint by the end of the 5th and be fully assembled by the end of the 7th week.This is more of a experiment for us than anything to see just how long it takes and what the cost will be. Just paint and body is something the owner of the shop has never done before and in my eyes its a part of the market that we need to be in. I may be wrong but time will tell.
When a customer comes into the shop to talk about a paint job I always let them know it will be atleast 4-6 months before I can start,usually I will get them in sooner but I do not want to rush what we are working on to start another job and we do not need to get them in there just to get the first draw to fund something else.I hate shops that do business that way.
Now we are talking money.I will quote the paint job upfront after the color has been picked.This price is just for the body work,paint,wet sanding and buffing.I do not quote metal work and I never will.
I also will not quote dissasembly, there is no way to know what is going to brake or fall apart in your hand on a old car. All of this is done by the hour at a said price for how ever long it takes. Once the car is apart I take it to the blaster and I will give the owner a price for that. After the body and paint is finished it goes back to the hourly rate to put it back together.
This usually ends up in the 20,000-30,000 dollar range to get the body apart,reparied,bodyworked,painted and back together.Then if we are doing drivetrain,frame,etc is all hourly plus parts.Average complete stock restoration out of our shop is in the 70,000-90,000 dollar range.
Our current "just a paint job" I quated at 10,000 I will let everone know how that goes.
I know This was a little off topic but it give my inside view on how long it usually takes.

[joejaze]

My car was in the body shop for 21 months and it still needs to go back for final touches once the interior is complete. Granted, we did some body mods and took the car down to bare metal but I still think the time frame was ridiculous. The bottom line is the shop was getting the quick hit insurance claims in and out while my car sat on the sidelines. I think my mistake was I paid as the car progressed. I should have given a small down payment and paid in full at the end.

[killer69]

This car.

98389

Was in our paint shop from Dec 20 till April 15.
The metal work was done (inhouse) prior, but it still needed window openings finished, minor alignment for the panels, you know but that is how long it took. including wet sand and polish.

One guy one car one job, oh we did do a couple other small jobs in between as well painted a couple engine bays and some touch ups on a 69 Camaro.

if there are 3 guys in a shop there really shouldn't be more than 3 cars. one guy one car.
at least that is how we do it here.

[1965gp]

Paint body is tricky- you get frustrated and want to go off on the shop. Then when you aren't happy with the work they blame you for rushing them.

Also- if you negotiate down on the price and aren't happy with the work they tell you that is why they quoted the higher price.

I am extremely fortunate- I have a close friend that owns a production style body shop. They do a lot of dealership work and quick repairs. But- the owner is a car guy at heart and loves building hot rods and muscle cars. He has done several cars for me (about 10?) and while they are budget nice driver quality cars I have always been very happy with their work. Does it take a long time? Yup- anywhere from 3 months up to over a year to strip the car to metal (after I disassemble), replace any metal needed, seal, block and paint base/clear.

It takes a while and I know it. I also know that I get a great deal and that he couldn't stay in business if all he did was resto / refurbish work at these prices. He makes his money on the dealership work and insurance work. He does restoration work because he enjoys it. I have referred guys to him and they always argue the price down and then get mad when they don't have time to work on the car straight through.

If you are charging 20k for paint and body then yea you should be able to tackle that job as priority #1- if it is a fraction of that 20k then you need to understand that your car is going to be low priority.

I usually try to get my cars to him in the fall when things slow down. If they get slow (which doesn't ever happen anymore) I would bring them a project car so they can keep their guys working through the off season. Once tax time and summer comes around they are pretty booked.

[DubyaS6]

^^I agree with the above.

Body Shops realistically can't charge enough to work on a huge project like that non-stop in order to finish it in 3-4 months. Most people won't pay that kind of money. That means the shop is forced to take in other work at the same time in order to make the money they need to stay afloat. This means less time for them to be able to work on your car; therefore it takes longer.

Just my $0.02

[jlcustomz]

There are plenty of shops that get good work done in a reasonable amount of time, even if it's longer than originally stated. too bad they are hard to find.

Do most of my own paintwork. Got with a lower level person at an autocrafters back in 98' to be my helper & get me in their shop on a couple of Saturdays for spraying. Did bodywork & colorsanding at home. In march 2011 I got tired of not having paint on my Camaro nose conversion & sprayed my entire front end disassembled under my carport at night the week before Daytona spring show. Being in control, I made the show the next week.

Another option for some may be if you have a large independently operated chain store in your area that can do quality work. They are in the business of getting work in & out & may be able to do high end work in an appropriate amount of time when paid correctly. This all varies according to shop. WE have a Maaco in jax that at least used to do some nicer jobs, as long as they weren't pearl or something. Just a thought.

[dhutton]

9 months and it took a lot of pushing to get it done. Then he finally rushed it out the door. I now do my own paint and body work. It may not be SEMA quality but they are damn nice drivers. And I get to drive them which is more than I could say when I used to farm out this part of the build...

Don

[bret]

We have 2 guys that build cars. One car at a time, with maybe a couple of quicky repairs thown in during the way.

I started my own body shop about 12 years ago after going through the scenarios described above. That is when I was educated to the number of hours and amount of money truly required to build a car properly. The simplest build we've done is the 69 Z28 restoration tha we are doing right now. We currently have been working on that car nearly non stop since Jan 2014 and still have at least a couple months to go. Were at approx 1500 hours and counting. If this were a retail customer [we don't do outside builds anymore] the labor on this car would already be over $100,000. This particular car was quite nice to start with...nearly no rust and original GM sheetmetal. After all this time [and many top notch cars] I still can't figure out how to build a car that you don't paint on-site. The fabrication/assembly/paint process is so intertwined that I would consider it nearly impossible.
I understand that not every car needs to be built at this level [although my guys don't :)] Obviously most people do not have the financial or logistical resources to do EVERYTHING themsleves...BUT, it is very helpful for the customer to be miserably aware of the time it takes to do custom work. It is absolutely unrealistic to expect anyone to "paint" a hotrod for $10,000. The materials will cost at least a third of that. That leaves $7000 for labor. at a minumum labor rate of $35.00/hour [most shops are at least double that] your expecting the shop to paint that car in 200 hours. Can't be done.

Conversely, the shop owner must sac up and give the customer a realistic estimate. Many won't because they are simply afraid to...or they don't know...because they don't keep accurate track of the hours. Not a sustainable business model.
Another un-sustainable business model is the conept of doing a job for nearly nothing for someone who is going to make them famous. When all you have to sell is the same 24 hours in a day that every other human does, there is no way to recover from "spending" 1000 hours painting a car for someone. I've seen too many shops put under by that concept.
It is also helpful for the shop owner to over-communicate on a weekly or even daily basis about the progress of the project. We take at least 5 pictures a day, even if nothing is being visibly accomplished. Digital image storage is cheap and it always seems to come in handy. Lack of communucation has killed more relationships than anything else.

In a perfect world it should be a law that anyone who wants a car built or even painted by someone else should have to build or paint one themselves first. Then they could have some realistic expectation of what it takes to accomplish this. For those who can't/won't...buy one and bolt on a new set of wheels. That may sound harsh or facitious, but some of my favorite cars were "built" this way...including the 48 Hour Camaro. That car was a really nicely restored 327/glide Camaro that I found at a local car show. I paid under $20k for that car and have done no paint work to it [except for repairs :)] That car won't win any car shows but I don't think anyone will deny its a nice car and a metric ton of fun to drive and race. The point is there is more than one way to acheive your dreams. Keep plugging!

[DubyaS6]

AMEN! In my experience painting is the easy part. It's all the prep work before you get to that point that makes or breaks the job.

Sure, a lot of people out there can paint a car and have it look "ok", but they aren't putting the time and money into it to prepare it to look AMAZING once it's painted. That takes lots of time.

I agree that most companies (paint or not) don't communicate well enough with their customers. If the customer knows what to expect at the beginning, then there isn't as much risk of them being extremely upset when months have gone by and their car isn't done.

If they want to have a car with an amazing paint job, they need to be prepared to wait for that as well as pay for it. I feel like if a lot of people were told up front about the realistic time and cost it takes, they would choose a different route. And that needs to be their choice.

[1965gp]

Interesting that Maaco is mentioned above. The shop my friend owns is a Maaco franchise. People are always shocked that my cars are painted there- but if I disassemble and take it to them I get a high end driver quality paint job for a reasonable price.

I am not in the position to build a car like Brett describes above (too many cars!) so this process works well for me. I have done body work and have prepped my shard of cars- it is an amazing amount of work and unfortunately that cost $$.

[dhutton]

AMEN! In my experience painting is the easy part. It's all the prep work before you get to that point that makes or breaks the job.

Sure, a lot of people out there can paint a car and have it look "ok", but they aren't putting the time and money into it to prepare it to look AMAZING once it's painted. That takes lots of time.

I agree that most companies (paint or not) don't communicate well enough with their customers. If the customer knows what to expect at the beginning, then there isn't as much risk of them being extremely upset when months have gone by and their car isn't done.

If they want to have a car with an amazing paint job, they need to be prepared to wait for that as well as pay for it. I feel like if a lot of people were told up front about the realistic time and cost it takes, they would choose a different route. And that needs to be their choice.

AMAZING is very subjective. Most people who see my home brew paint jobs are very impressed and I get a lot of folks asking me to paint their cars. On the other hand Ring Brothers would not be AMAZED... I am not bragging here, I am just saying that folks need to explore alternatives to getting chapped when their cars are stuck in paint prison...

I am also not arguing that good results don't take time. They do. I think issues arise when cars sit for weeks and months without any progress or they work on it one or two days a month etc....

Too many folks putting SEMA quality paint jobs on cars that don't warrant it in my mind. Especially if they are going to drive them...

Don

[BMR Sales]

Communication is the Key - I'm still waiting on my car and now it is over 7 Months. He told me he would send me pictures along the way - I've gotten one! If he would Call or Text on a Weekly Basis and tell me what was going on (even if nothing got accomplished), I wouldn't be so frustrated. I heard (Text) from the Painter last week and we are back to being on better terms, but I still don't know when I'm getting it back.

In the Past, when I've had a Bad Experience with someone working on my car, I've sold it because I don't even want to be reminded of the hassle I went through. I think I have someone lined up to buy this one - I will breaking even on it.

[Merlin]

Three f-ing long years.

Cliff

[mikedc]

IMO we all just have expectations too high anymore.


What is "acceptable" fit & finish? These 45yo cars were never built with decent quality to start with. They were never even DESIGNED with it! The pieces don't even have the tolerances in the first place! And the factory finishes on these cars . . . they would rate as "semigloss" by modern standards. These cars were built with runs in the paint, mis-aligned panels, pieces that rubbed against each other and started coming apart almost immediately, etc.


Materials do cost a lot. We demand 150,000-mile-durable paintjobs on cars that rarely ever get driven another 15,000 miles again when they are finished. The environmental issues are another matter I won't go into, but IMO most of the restored cars in this hobby could have used far less durable materials without issues.


People don't show up to a body/paint shop wanting a car "resprayed" so much as reinvented. They show up with a 3500-lb pile of parts (about 1200 pounds of which are re-usable) with 1/2" tolerances. They want something back that looks like their old car but was built like a 21st-century product.


If a huge corporation was asked to restore 500,000 copies of an old muscle car to please the current resto market, they would quickly decide that it's cheaper to retool the cars from scratch and start over on most of the major pieces. What people want on the finished product is too far removed from what the original raw materials provide to start with.

[theastronaut]

The shop I work at restored this truck in about 14 months but we weren't on it full time. We did everything here, not just the body/paint work. They drove it in and drove it out. All we do is restoration work though- no small jobs or insurance work so we can stay on just a couple jobs steadily. We've heard plenty of paint job horror stories and I have my own from a few years back before I learned the trade.

It's a huge problem everywhere though. We just had a guy drive from Connecticut to our shop in SC to check us out; he couldn't find a shop he could trust locally to restore his '40 Packard.


Build thread:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/1234150-1966-f100-shortbed-styleside-full-stock-resto-build-thread.html



From this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/602674_347783085340516_1793903330_n-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/602830_347785295340295_979707584_n-1.jpg



To this:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10456004_592203994231756_574597845407706-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10464387_592203987565090_597956539118342-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10357196_592203997565089_281860444146947-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10426338_592203990898423_665555148424688-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10478111_592204000898422_681828233943768-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/07/10424353_582634961855326_862236321531190-1.jpg

[Boatmark]

I think Brett has a valid point - much of the general public (at least from my experience in the boat / yacht business) do not have a realistic understanding of the relationship between time, money, and the different levels of quality available. It is up to the shop to educate them through the decision process, and as much as possible head off future problems and arguments.

The flip side of the coin is that much of the issue with paint shops is poor management skills on the part of those running them - poor time management, poor cash management, and poor customer management. When you break down the efficiency numbers in many of these types of businesses, the owners are astounded at what has been happening in their own businesses.

I have another type of issue - I can't afford the quality I want, and am not happy with the quality I can afford - so I have to do it myself.

[fitzmotor]

My truck took a year, it was supposed to be quick job, not a perfect paint job, just a paint job.

[killer69]

^^I agree with the above.

Body Shops realistically can't charge enough to work on a huge project like that non-stop in order to finish it in 3-4 months. Most people won't pay that kind of money. That means the shop is forced to take in other work at the same time in order to make the money they need to stay afloat. This means less time for them to be able to work on your car; therefore it takes longer.

Just my $0.02
Not specifically directed at you comment
WHY can a shop not charge for the time it takes to do the work? I don't understand this thinking. when I go to work for 8 hours I want to get paid for 8 hours of work, not 4 or 6 or even 7. if the customers can't afford the work then they need to find another hobby. When the plumber comes to my house to fix the leak in the sink he even charges me to drive to my house, then charges me for the time he worked on the leak, if he doesn't have the correct parts he charges me to drive to home depot to get the part? if he takes 4 hours to fix the leak then what? why cant the body shop charge for all the time it takes to do a job??? why do customers think this industry is not a legitimate business that has to pay bills and make money. why do they think they can negotiate AFTER the fact on the price. I bet thy don't work for free? Rant over I am not saying it is an open check book but it takes along time to do a high end paint job.and thousands of dollars in materials!! it still blows me away how much the materials cost.

[1965gp]

Big difference there. Plumber fixes a leak- it either leaks or it doesn't. Most people are not going to analyze the product or installation. It works or it doesn't.

Guy paints a car- one person thinks it has orange peel and one person thinks it looks great. One person see's a wave in black paint and one person see's a shiny car.

Btw- I completely agree with the shop getting paid for the work they do. I always offer to pay my guy upfront or in stages. Wife's car is there now after hail damage and I am paying more than quoted cause I know he gives me a deal. I do not negotiate on paint- it almost always guarantees a bad job.

One more thing- the turn around on the truck above sounds good- but that is a restoration. No custom fabrication, no calculating, no pioneering designs, etc. that cost A LOT more because you are not only paying the labor- you are paying for and taking the time to figure it out.

I haven't built a true pro- touring car yet because quite honestly it's out of my price range. I have a few cars that have 17's and disc brakes but in my opinion that isn't pro-touring. It's the pro- touring look.

[TheJDMan]

This entire discussion is the very reason why I'm considering taking some paint and body classes at the local Community College so I can do my own paint. I am not particularly excited about going back to school at 60 years of age, but I honestly don't see a better alternative. It seems that, here locally anyway, the shops I can trust I can't afford and the ones I can afford I can't trust.

[MonzaRacer]

Well guys, as a Master Level diag tech, I see lots of hurry up and get it done. Just like car today, tech threw in new lock cyl/switch,,in a 03 Honda Accord, gotta have Honda scanner to reload keys or take too dealer for $55.
Did find tool less lap top that only costs $119 plus $33 shipping. If it works, and does stock diag, when I buy one, then Im good too go, if not, Ebay it and let next fella own it.
BUT as my uncle was paint/body/collision guy and could make a car look stock or like a perfect diamond.
He painted my old pediatricians Caddy, looks as good today as day it rolled out of two bay paint shop. Single stage Acrylic Enamel, BUT I think he added a clear top coat as it has some amazing depth.
90% of painters today with ANY OEM paint job matching time cant switch up and paint glass smooth custom work. At least thats my take as I have seen way too many "custom jobs" that half were flawless and other half was nearly factory orange peel.
I damaged my cars, fixed stuff so it was ready for local show and cruise. Same uncle showed me how to lay paint down flat how to judge how its gonna flow out while mixing.
I AM GLORIFIED AMATEUR. BUT I can paint my own cars given I have cash for materials.
Painted buddies car for him after retrieving it from paint jail of 4 yrs.

Monday before car cruise, after work I got him to buy 3 gallons of primer, gallon of sealer, small container of finish putty and some fine coat body filler. We sanded car that night allllll over. Washed it down and sat it in 2 car garage,small fan and couple electric heater to raise temps. Visqueen on ceiling and we had washed it out well and let it dry with salamander running to dry it some.
Next night I laid out 2 gallons of primer, using some heat, faster solvents, etc (all in lacquer primer so it does dry faster.) then we started MORE sanding and by 12:30 we had it READY for the sealer. fueled up salamander(sitting in some home made heat chamber from furnace duct metal as he had hvac company) fans kept THAT from getting too hot and circulated the heat. It would run 5 hours on full tank of k1.
Tuesday:Next morning I drove by, mixed, shot and walked away from sealed car.
Tuesday night:Came back, worked on little issues and loaded color gun(car was going back to original color and all visual areas were masked so as to have no over spray.)
I laid on full gallon of color that day and fired up heat(got about 100deg in shop) lt it sit about 4 hrs after shooting. Went out and looked it over , nibbed few spots, recleaned everything, guns, hoses, etc.
Wednesday morning early we hit it with ultrafine paper, soap and water, took it out and washed it completely, blew it off/out. back in shop, fire up salamander. Warmed it up, tacked it down.
Wednesday evening warmed up again, loaded gun with high solids clear, little flex agent, little hardener (the brand/type paint took this mix well) and I started laying on thin coats, built it up, made sure appropriate wear areas got some extra love. Laid on full gallon of clear, cooked it till salamander ran out, guy goes to buy more K1, runs it again that night.
Thursday morning, we strip masking, clean up and pull it out.
Smooth as babies behind.
He is about too orgasm I swear, I told him to wait.
Thursday night we had his daughters out (all college girls) in their bikinis with soap, water and ultra fine paper and by 10 pm we had her all slicked up. Washed it good, pushed it inside and started salamander to dry it out. And he is going over areas where over spray got through. basically he had spray cans with original color to do touch up, also he was doing black out and undercoating.
Friday night I borrowed buffing set up from old friend and started buffing it out.
We had ONE sag and honestly UNLESS YOU KNEW IT WAS THERE IT WAS NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE AT BODY LINE.
Well about 3 am Saturday(lucky me took off that day) I get too sleep, up at 8 am, (o more of THOSE days anymore) out cleaning up/out my car for cruise.
Noon we are actually rebuffing couple spots, and actually hand waxing it, girls had done good job on jams, trunk and underhood.
About 3:30-4:00 we head for Washington car cruise.
Getting gas guy offers him cash for car right there, no sale. Cruise in to park, two guys start questioning who painted it, whats the color, etc.
In line we go get out free chilli, dig through entry goodie bag.
Come back he has 5 offers to purchase AND the car club hosting wanted to buy the car too.
We cruise him in front of me and my buddies behind me in their cars.
Get back and local photog wants to shoot both cars, like nose too nose, etc. My old POS Monte and my friends 66 Impalla.
We leave about midnight.
Sunday we are back for show, he got best paint and since it had so little else changed he got best unrestored.
Same body style got best original paint and was parked between us. The difference was incredible, same color but with time and adding some clear.
Honestly we were both beat and had great time and that car still shines today,,,need too dig up pics.
Is it perfect, NOOOOOO. IS it an awesome looking car, yep and he has since started pro touring it some, now has 17/18 wheels, soon too get air ride, and fresh BBC as he picked up all aluminum 540 race engine. Heads went off for rework and head guy offered to buy/swap for more street oriented set. So he gets good alu heads for $500, Has set of new pistons that take more street oriented rings and fit his rods.
Also has new smaller Comp roller set up to go in and the other parts.
Total cost in materials etc. $600-$700, actual labor to primer from paint jail $6500, before we started. That paint job I am proud of and for setup and time involved I told him no charge till it sells if he ever sells I want $2500 CASH.
Till then enjoy.
SO I have seen driver/show quality cars painted and owners paid $20k and look like A$$.
I have seen actual show cars painted in driveway and not have $1000 in materials or paying painter and they all held up pretty much same no bubbles, paint still looking good, etc.
Pride in work is priority over anything else. Watching Overhauling and other quickie builds, tell me that decent work doesnt take 2 yrs. Admittedly a lot of those cars are NOT perfect, nearly perfect, some corners cut but still 90% of people would buy them all day long.
IF you are so picky that you HAVE to have your car in $100k paint suit, and have cash to do it.
BUT I have seen and done 1 foot, small show quality jobs and they were NOT $20k paint jobs.
Seen too many $20k $h1t wagons that I could spray bomb better, in fact I DID spray bomb one that has better paint than several "famous painter" cars.
Class mate had decent car, wanted it dark Ford engine blue, like Ford emblem.
So I told him to buy 6- 12 can cases and request all from same lot. We painted his 67 Mustang ,after spray bomb primer and and used one of those clip on can spray handles. Made a belt driven can shaker too keep them shook.
We painted that car on Saturday afternoon, well started about 11 am, by 6 we were done and car looked awesome.
We pulled masking tape and newspaper off. Went inside to clean up. By 8 we were in town driving around in his new car, and he picked up girl he liked but she wouldnt go out cause his old car was crappy looking.
I saw that car about 10 yrs ago, blown engine sitting in his barn, Still shining and barely can see any sand scratches on 30 yr old spray bomb paint job.
Just depends on how picky and how much money you guys want too spend.
I mean I see project cars with $100k+ in them, much like 48hr Camaro, and others.
But honestly I dont intend to bad mouth ANYONES car but I would rather have a paint job that looks good from 10 ft, minor imperfections up close and cool car/ideas and performance and being driven a lot.
Unless you want to sell it for bazillion dollars, you might just be able to do it fairly reasonable and still look good.
Seen several shot at Maaco/Earl Shieb and they look as good as any show car.
But the decision is up too the owner.
It sure wont make it any faster either.

[Smittys]

"In all respect to any Painters here, my experience is that all Painters are Paint Huffing Freaks and can't be Trusted!"

Wow!!! Not even sure what to say about that.

1500-2000 hr car build which is typical of a nice car is a years time to one guy working none stop on it.

The term paint jail is bad enough of a term to start with. Really good body paint guys are some of the most talented people there are.

Truly straight cars, perfectly painted are works of art.

Then again I beat if you take your car to Rad Rides, Brizio, Johnson's, Foose, Smittys, Roadster Shop, Goolsby, Greening, Ring Brothers, Dutch Boys.... so on ( Sorry I missed some good ones )

I beat your car is done in 3 days and we are all Paint Huffing Freaks

[BMR Sales]

I guess you missed the part of "with Respect to Painters here"

It's just that in the last 15 Years, I've had Painters never finish cars, leave a Collector Car in the Weeds behind his shop, had a car in a Shop for 3 1/2 Years when I was Quoted 6 Months, this car in the Shop for 8 Months on 7 Week Quote, had a Guy chase me out of his Shop with a Gun, heard that a Guy that was Shooting my car got Arrested - later found out he was shooting Heroin into a Vein in his Dick. I've had some of these same guys get jobs done on time. So I don't know if there is a Common Theme or not. Most Car Guys I know will Not give a Recommendation of a Painter.

[bonesfab]

Being that I have been doing this for a while and actually bought a body shop that was in trouble, I will chime in here.. Yes we call it paint jail.. Most body shops rob peter to pay paul.. The guy I bought my body shop off wanted to run his own business and work 30 hrs a week.. Didn't work out. The other problem is they take big deposits, they spend the money on other things and there is no incentive to finish the car. That happens in the restoration shops also.. I have been trying to break the "paint jail" moniker for a while.. We just did a 1967 impala for a guy. He wanted it black from the factory teal. We got the car in and painted in 3-weeks.. Not to bad. We have also done complete cars in as little as 6-months.. My biggest problem is cash flow from the customer.

[Rick Dorion]

This entire discussion is the very reason why I'm considering taking some paint and body classes at the local Community College so I can do my own paint. I am not particularly excited about going back to school at 60 years of age, but I honestly don't see a better alternative. It seems that, here locally anyway, the shops I can trust I can't afford and the ones I can afford I can't trust.

How true. I tell folks my goal is to get my car one color and I'll probably do it myself, warts and all.

[groho]

Hey, JDMan, I went back to community college at 50, and loved every minute. Took several welding classes on top working on a degree. It was very enjoyable, energetic and thought provoking. I hated HS, but our experience and age puts a completely different perspective on the experience. Go for it! Wanted to provide another prospective regarding paint jail. I dropped by the shop to get an update and look at my '66 mustang, its moving, about 3/4 done, and should be completely primed and blocked any day. We were shooting the bull, when he mentioned how he's finally getting caught up and getting cars out the last week or two. His frustration was evident talking about guys who bring in cars, drop a deposit, and then half way through the job there's suddenly no money to finish the work. He has two owners, a total of four cars, in this situation. In my opinion, it goes both ways. You have to have the money before you go into such an effort, and do your homework before you select a shop, or do the work yourself. I would love to paint my own car, but don't have the proper equipment, and space, to do it.

[BMR Sales]

My car is finished & came out very nice. The Painter & I have cleared the Air & everything is cool with us. He realizes the Communication thing is a Bad Spot for him. I wish the car had been done quicker, but it is what it is