Control arm clarity, 64-72 A body. lets here from the pro's

[SD455]

Hey guys,

I'm working on a new project, and not going crazy with the suspension. Its a 65 GTO, and at best I will be running a Bias ply tire in the form of a good year blue streak, or a polyglass. With that in mind I am at a crossroads with my front suspension. I blew the motor up, and while it was out I decided to pull the control arms and replace the horrible energy suspension bindings….I mean bushings.

Anyways, turns out the car has two different lower control arms on it, so I have started looking at aftermarket A arms because I figure by the time I replace the bushings,ball joints, and one control arm we are spending enough that its worth considering total replacement. I won't be asking the car to autocross, or do track days and I really want to keep an old school feeling to the build. Brakes will be limited to 12" rotors as I insist on staying with a 15" wheel, again to keep the look more vintage. I just started a build thread here-https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/107809-65-GTO-new-project-not-sure-if-it-fits-here

I have Bilstein HD's, front and rear sway bars and a good idea of what I would like for spring rate and ride height(just slightly lower than stock).

There are so many options these days that its become really difficult to make a decision on what arms to use. I like the ride tech stuff, but I'm not feeling the coil overs. Global west uses the right bushings but the pricing seems optimistic for slightly better geometry. I'm not interested in anything that uses a Poly bushing, they don't work. I just last night came across what seems like good value with the Jegs-http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/64556/10002/-1

Anyways, there seem to be a lot of really great sponsors here and a wealth of knowledge so I am hoping to get educated and hopefully moving in the right direction. The car has been of the road for two weeks now at the wrong time of the year, so I need help!!

Thanks!

[BMR Sales]

Wondering why you would Consider Chinese-Made Arms just because they have Delrin (maybe) Bushings.

IMO, a well-greased Poly Bushing works for your application. Not forcing it on you, just sayin!

[Bonehead]

Poly bushing don't work? Wow......

[SD455]

Wondering why you would Consider Chinese-Made Arms just because they have Delrin (maybe) Bushings.

IMO, a well-greased Poly Bushing works for your application. Not forcing it on you, just sayin!


Had no idea they were Chinese- I thought Jegs was USA, won't be putting any chinese parts on my American Muscle car. I have never seen an energy suspension greasable control arm bushing. From a design standpoint, rubber bushings work as intended. Replacing the rubber with Poly, at least in my mind, and in every application I have used them in, creates a lot of bind in the suspension. On the rear control arms, the entire bushing was actually turning in the control arm. I have used a poly sway bar bushing with success, so I should clarify that they don't work in control arms, at least the energy suspension ones don't.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in!


Poly bushing don't work? Wow...…

Yes, Wow!!

[raustinss]

Poly bushings can will and do work....done correctly BMR does know their stuff... "roto" joints or johnny joints are great. IMO contact SC&C.... Markus he is a guru with gm A body suspension and will right you wheels for you

[SD455]

Poly bushings can will and do work....done correctly BMR does know their stuff... "roto" joints or johnny joints are great. IMO contact SC&C.... Markus he is a guru with gm A body suspension and will right you wheels for you

I would be interested in seeing an application where a Poly joint works in a front control arm as I just can't see how they would in that application. Keep in mind I'm basing this on the Energy Suspension style poly bushings where they are designed like the rubber factory pieces, just replacing rubber with Poly.

[Nicks67GTO]

Well...For my 67' GTO, the suspension was a snowball effect. Where do you stop?? I dont know??? Theres so many things wrong with the factory first gen A body setup that its hard to stop without fixing all of it. So I did an SC&C stage II with some upgrades and a junkyard swap Jeep grand cherokee 12.7:1 steering box. For the time being I have 15" wheels on my car with 11" 4 wheel discs from TRSD. The car handles fantastic even with the big old 60 series tires and stops great. I dont regret it a bit.

[BMR Sales]

Had no idea they were Chinese- I thought Jegs was USA, won't be putting any chinese parts on my American Muscle car. I have never seen an energy suspension greasable control arm bushing. From a design standpoint, rubber bushings work as intended. Replacing the rubber with Poly, at least in my mind, and in every application I have used them in, creates a lot of bind in the suspension. On the rear control arms, the entire bushing was actually turning in the control arm. I have used a poly sway bar bushing with success, so I should clarify that they don't work in control arms, at least the energy suspension ones don't.

Thanks for taking the time to chime in!


Poly bushing don't work? Wow...…

Yes, Wow!!

I based my Chinese Comment on the fact that they are Private Labeled for Jegs and the Price. Everybody in the Industry that makes a similar product in the USA with Poly Bushings is Hundreds of Dollars more and obviously Jegs is making a good profit selling them. Also Delrin Bushings are about $25 a Pop and you would have 4 in a Pair of Lower Arms. So the Math doesn't Add Up.

Poly's do work or we wouldn't sell any or I would have people bitching at me all day long which is not the case. I haven't had a Call about our Bushings Binding or Failing since I've been at BMR. I have sold replacement Bushings to Customers that have had our Arms for 4-5 Years. Heck our 5th Gen Camaro Super-Pro Poly Bushings have a Lifetime Warranty.

Granted on my Race Car I have Spherical Bearings & Bronze Bushings for Performance, but for your Application, You would never live with the Noise or the Direction Vibration that a Hard Metal to Metal piece would deliver.

Again, not trying to force anything on you, but I also don't want false information out there for someone new coming along that might read this!

T.C.

[UMI Tech]

If you're against poly, we have a nice Delrin bushing lower.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_251_270&products_id=537

The travel is super smooth. They feel like they're on bearings.


Hey guys,

I'm working on a new project, and not going crazy with the suspension. Its a 65 GTO, and at best I will be running a Bias ply tire in the form of a good year blue streak, or a polyglass. With that in mind I am at a crossroads with my front suspension. I blew the motor up, and while it was out I decided to pull the control arms and replace the horrible energy suspension bindings….I mean bushings.

Anyways, turns out the car has two different lower control arms on it, so I have started looking at aftermarket A arms because I figure by the time I replace the bushings,ball joints, and one control arm we are spending enough that its worth considering total replacement. I won't be asking the car to autocross, or do track days and I really want to keep an old school feeling to the build. Brakes will be limited to 12" rotors as I insist on staying with a 15" wheel, again to keep the look more vintage. I just started a build thread here-https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/107809-65-GTO-new-project-not-sure-if-it-fits-here

I have Bilstein HD's, front and rear sway bars and a good idea of what I would like for spring rate and ride height(just slightly lower than stock).

There are so many options these days that its become really difficult to make a decision on what arms to use. I like the ride tech stuff, but I'm not feeling the coil overs. Global west uses the right bushings but the pricing seems optimistic for slightly better geometry. I'm not interested in anything that uses a Poly bushing, they don't work. I just last night came across what seems like good value with the Jegs-http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS+Performance+Products/555/64556/10002/-1

Anyways, there seem to be a lot of really great sponsors here and a wealth of knowledge so I am hoping to get educated and hopefully moving in the right direction. The car has been of the road for two weeks now at the wrong time of the year, so I need help!!

Thanks!

[SD455]

I based my Chinese Comment on the fact that they are Private Labeled for Jegs and the Price. Everybody in the Industry that makes a similar product in the USA with Poly Bushings is Hundreds of Dollars more and obviously Jegs is making a good profit selling them. Also Delrin Bushings are about $25 a Pop and you would have 4 in a Pair of Lower Arms. So the Math doesn't Add Up.

Poly's do work or we wouldn't sell any or I would have people bitching at me all day long which is not the case. I haven't had a Call about our Bushings Binding or Failing since I've been at BMR. I have sold replacement Bushings to Customers that have had our Arms for 4-5 Years. Heck our 5th Gen Camaro Super-Pro Poly Bushings have a Lifetime Warranty.

Granted on my Race Car I have Spherical Bearings & Bronze Bushings for Performance, but for your Application, You would never live with the Noise or the Direction Vibration that a Hard Metal to Metal piece would deliver.

Again, not trying to force anything on you, but I also don't want false information out there for someone new coming along that might read this!

T.C.

Thanks again for your input. I'm not suggesting that Poly bushings fail, but from a performance standpoint I still feel your better off with rubber, or stepping up to a spherical bearing, or delrin lined steel or aluminum bushing. On my Firebird I ran a combination of both with excellent results. That in combination with sub frame connectors, and solid sub frame mounts gave excellent street manners and a comfortable quiet ride on 480 tread wear street tires. On race tires it was definitely noisy and uncomfortable.

I understand that there are tonnes of guys out there running poly bushings with reportedly excellent results.

[SD455]

If you're against poly, we have a nice Delrin bushing lower.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_251_270&products_id=537

The travel is super smooth. They feel like they're on bearings.

Thanks Ramey, I will have a look.

[raustinss]

From what I've heard is that poly bushings were almost rushed to the market so to say. The first style never had or were greased properly. That is the key to making poly work some people will grease them but with the wrong grease, use the recommended stuff and your fine

[SD455]

I don't believe there is any such thing as a greasable poly control arm bushing. Poly control arm bushings are vulcanized like rubber bushings, so there really isn't anything to grease.

I think we should start a new thread focused on bushings…..

[BMR Sales]

Yes, Poly Bushing can be and need to be Greased. We put a Zerk Fitting on every part that has a Poly or Delrin Bushing. Poly needs to be greased with a Fully Synthetic Grease (Mobil1, Green, Superlube) - a petroleum based grease will soften Poly and cause further problems

97685

[67gtonut]

I know I am going against the grain here.... but I will post anyway.....

Taking into account that he plans on staying with an old school BiasPly tire and 15" wheel combo, I think just finding an OEM matched set of control arms and installing nice set of OEM rubber bushings will be just fine for the car.

[raustinss]

I know I am going against the grain here.... but I will post anyway.....

Taking into account that he plans on staying with an old school BiasPly tire and 15" wheel combo, I think just finding an OEM matched set of control arms and installing nice set of OEM rubber bushings will be just fine for the car.


Troy
You are probably more then correct I believe, .Most of the posts for the poly bushings were to educate people because there are alot of people who aren't aware of the ways to make poly work..eg proper grease
Cheers Ryan

[SD455]

Troy
You are probably more then correct I believe, .Most of the posts for the poly bushings were to educate people because there are alot of people who aren't aware of the ways to make poly work..eg proper grease
Cheers Ryan

I think for now, rubber bushings and factory control arms will have to suffice. With regards to the poly bushings, in the pic that BMR posted, yes that appears to be a design where either poly, or delrin would work. I'm wondering if you are designing from scratch like that what the advantage of poly over delrin is and why use it?

When I say Poly doesn't work, I mean specifically that if you replace your factory vulcanized rubber bushings with Energy suspension pieces your going backward. I also mean specifically in an A or F body front lower control arm application,if you study the design of the originals, and look at the way they are supposed to work.

[SD455]

Taking into account that he plans on staying with an old school BiasPly tire and 15" wheel combo, I think just finding an OEM matched set of control arms and installing nice set of OEM rubber bushings will be just fine for the car.[/QUOTE]

You are probably correct! These are the tires I will be using.

With this in mind, is there an advantage to using a tall ball joint? Can it be used safely with a stock control arm, and if so is 1/2" the maximum?

97713