Heavy Classic cars... what am i missing?

[scott_fx]

Admittedly i'm very new to classic cars. my current project car (1966 Chevelle Malibu) is in the body shop right now and i've been researching and reading about suspension upgrades. I always was under the impression that all the old cars were really heavy, and since weight has a direct correlation on how a car performs, i wanted to compare it to something i was familiar driving. So i looked up the curb weight of the chevelle and a 99 c5 vert (used to own one) and they were 1 lb apart.....


1966 2dr chevelle malibu coupe:
http://chevellestuff.net/1966/misc/dimensions.htm
front 1750 lbs
rear 1780 lbs
total weight 3230 lbs



1999 C5 convertible
http://www.thevettenet.com/corvette_specs.php?year=1999
total weight 3231 lbs




Of course suspension in a c5 is far more advanced then the straight axle chevelle... but the weight is pretty surprising. How close could you actually get a modded chevelle to handle like a stock c5? I am leaning toward sc&c stage II+ with koni 3 way adjustables, or umi stage 2 with adjustable shock upgrade (or possibly stage 3.5). I have c5 brakes with kore 3 brackets, bonspeed 18x10 and 18x8 wheels and the jgc steering box. also will be dropping in a lq9 (had a 396 in it)

I'm primarily going to use this as a driver... (hopefully i'll get some auto-x'ing under my belt but with a baby just around the corner, it may be a pipe dream.) would the Chevelle get close handling wise? would the c5 be a better handling car while being more comfortable to drive? Am i asking very dumb questions?

[alocker]

They seem big because they handle like old cars. Cars that were designed for skinny bias ply tires. In reality they don't have all the safety and NVH reducing technology weighing them down. I just scaled my 68 Impala fastback and it came in at 3826. It's over 19 feet long and looks like a barge. That's less weight than a 2014 1LE Camaro.

[nekkidhillbilly]

i think a skylark with power everything and ac still didnt weigh as much as bone stock new challenger. crazy but all the plastic junk really does weigh alot.

[TheJDMan]

You ask how a modified classic would compare to a c5, I can tell you that with the right mods they can handle and brake as well or better than a c5.

[Thephranc]

Sound deadening, airbags, miles of wire and crumple zones add a lot of weight.

[pro68chevelle]

68 chevelle, ls3, t56, roll bar, all steel with all glass windows. 3,200 lbs

[Bonehead]

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised when you get your Chevelle on the road. Will it handle like a stock C5? Not exactly. Its got its own characteristics, but they can be very nimble and easy to handle on the street and on the auto-x course. I'm still a few months out on starting on suspension on this current build, and I'm still a little undecided on which way to go. Spent an hour bombing around in a 62 Impala last weekend with Air Lift Performance suspension and I was blown away at how well it handled and rode. So now in reconsideration of what I want to do and if I'm ready for a lot of fabrication or back to the trusty coil over route. Hard to say at this moment. Lots of really good options out there for you.

[DarkBuddha]

1966 2dr chevelle malibu coupe:
http://chevellestuff.net/1966/misc/dimensions.htm
front 1750 lbs
rear 1780 lbs
total weight 3230 lbs

Lol... Well, one thing you're missing are some basic math skills: 1750 + 1780 = 3530, not 3230. Well, whoever made that chart is lacking in the math skills department anyways. 3530 certainly sounds more accurate to me for a v8 car.

[Schwartz Performance]

Our 65 Tempest weighs 3200 full of gas with a fiberglass & aluminum front end. Not much of an interior. Weight balance is 48 front 52 rear. LS engine, T56, and our chassis. Our chassis system weighs over 100lb less than the factory setup.

The Corvette has a lot of electronics and sound deadening which adds to the front weight. Also the engine is further back than a muscle car. You can easily shave over 100lb out of a Vette by stripping the interior parts unnecessary.
Center of gravity. A Chevelle will likely never have the low center of gravity like a Vette unless it's modified heavily. Obviously the Vette is mostly fiberglass too, which helps.
Wheelbase. A Chevelle has almost a foot longer wheelbase than a Vette I think. Small wheelbase cars are more agile typically.

Can you get an old car to handle like a Corvette? Of course! Swap our chassis into it and spank all the stock and lightly modified Vettes around. Of course you need to be able to drive too :)
With the components you have in mind, you'll likely be able to achieve a lot of Corvette capabilities, however. I would recommend strengthening the chassis itself with bracing though.. (Which will add weight but have a tighter feel).
Add Dynamat and other things into your Chevelle and you'll increase the weight too, but it'll sound nicer when the doors close and won't rattle quite as much.

Sounds like you may have never been to a ProTouring event or Goodguys event..? Chevelles spank Corvettes all the time ;)

-Dale

[SSLance]

So do Monte Carlos... :D

A little bit heavier car rides a bit nicer as well.

[mikedc]

Classic cars WERE big overweight behemoths compared to newer cars - from about the late 70s until the mid 1990s. Detroit had rapidly downsized everything in the mid-70s and the older stuff suddenly seemed like battleships in comparison. But in the 1990s-2000s modern cars have gradually regained their old huge weights.


Classic cars were also designed around skinny bias-ply tires. Those things had less grip and called for different alignment settings. A car company only builds a chassis & suspension stiff enough to take advantage of the tires they are using at the time; anything much beyond that is just added weight & worsening the ride quality. So that difference rendered the classic cars very floppy when you slap modern tires onto them. A floppy car seems heavier than it really is.

In fact the need for additional body stiffness with modern tires also accounts for a portion of the growing weights of modern cars. Not nearly all of the weight gained back, but some. Safety is a lot of it too. Not only more steel but also airbags, better brakes, electronic traction controls & ABS, interior padding, etc.


Gas mileage is another area where classics get a bad rap. Same as curb weight. (Yeah, a 426 Hemi with 4.10 gears will get bad mileage, but not something more comparable a modern sedan.) The oldies got a bad rap compared to the 1980s cars that immediately followed, but modern car mileage has crept back towards guzzling gas. Modern cars have an aero advantage and overdrive gears but the actual electronic fuel injection generally does more for emissions than mileage. The computers also keep newer cars running at their peak tune (mileage), whereas old cars need more regular tuning & maintenance to maintain that.

[scott_fx]

Sounds like you may have never been to a ProTouring event or Goodguys event..? Chevelles spank Corvettes all the time ;)

-Dale

nope, haven't yet. i should see if there are any in socal coming up to check out though!


Lol... Well, one thing you're missing are some basic math skills: 1750 + 1780 = 3530, not 3230. Well, whoever made that chart is lacking in the math skills department anyways. 3530 certainly sounds more accurate to me for a v8 car.

heh. didn't even look at that. just saw the weight and cut and pasted it.




Thanks guys, I can't wait to get this thing on the road!

[BangShiftChad]

In 4 hours I can take a good running stock GM A-body and have it pull 1.2 G's with BFG KDW's. Nothing but bolt on parts. That's with one buddy helping. Oh, slide a set of Falken or Rivals on it and that number goes up quickly.

[65_LS1_T56]

My 65 Chevelle weighs in a 3358 with a full tank, LS1, T56, 9" Ford, full interior (no A/C, or radio). Some frame mods for strength and tire clearance and bolt on suspension parts..beats vettes often. It's very satisfying :)

[mikedc]

In case this hasn't been pointed out yet - the "shipping weight" stats for old classic cars is bullsh*t.

That was a really bare-minimum figure that the car companies used to pitch to train & truck companies hauling the new cars from the factories to the dealerships. That's for a hypothetical copy of a given model with absolutely no options, minimal fluids, etc.

If you want an accurate figure then you have to draw a consensus based on a bunch of curb weights measured from individual vehicles with similar model/year/options to yours. The drivetrains are important but don't underestimate how much a difference in options or a change in bodystyle can make too.

[scott_fx]

This is very promising! I can't wait to get the car back from the body shop!



In 4 hours I can take a good running stock GM A-body and have it pull 1.2 G's with BFG KDW's. Nothing but bolt on parts. That's with one buddy helping. Oh, slide a set of Falken or Rivals on it and that number goes up quickly.

since you mentioned tires. i was wondering if you could expand a bit on the Falkens and rivals as well as maybe the kdw's and if you know anything about Potenza RE760 Sports. :) as you can see i'm researching which tires to get now

[Rat Fink]

My old '59 Ford weighs 3516 lbs with a full tank of gas, I had it weighed by Ridtech at Goodguys last year. Most people are surprised that my big ol' behemoth is so light. There's really not much to it except glass and steel and not much else.

[Lowend]

Compared to a 1600# MG they were very heavy

[rustomatic]

Somehow, my 1963 Falcon feels a lot lighter than my 2012 Honda Civic. In reality, I think they weigh about the same, which is kind of sad, given all the disparities between the two. Possibilities are limitless, so long as you add the knowledge--there's at least one mid-'60s Chevelle on here that has a Corvette chassis (C4?). I've said this too much already, but for a super-awesome Chevelle, find the Chevelle Grand Sport; it's Chevelle porn.

[scott_fx]

Ha. Funny you said that. I've had an online article open on one of my browser tabs about that 66 for the past week. It's amazing. I found out today he's a member here and contacted him.