OH NO a newbie with questions lol

[Motorbreath]

I'm currently trying to source a mid 70's c10 to go the Pro Touring route. As the title says I'm a newbie but I think I have a decent idea of what I want to do to start. It will be a fairly low buck/low tech build to start. I'd like to do it in stages and eventually have something along the lines of the ridetech trucks that run autocross.

My thoughts to start are:
1 Box the frame front to rear
2 Box the stock control arms up front to stiffen them
3 Upgrade to urethane bushings everywhere
4 Sway bar from a 1 ton
5 Axle flip
6 Frame notch for the flip
6 drop spindles and springs
7 appropriately shorter shocks or relocated mounts.
8 WIDE rubber on all 4 corners.

Stage 2? Can I call it stage 2? lol
1 Air ride front and rear
1.5 tubular A-arms.
2 2x2 tubing as a "ladder bar" type link for the rear air. ( should also eliminate needing a rear sway when coupled with #3)
3 ah the long awaited 3, axle truss to keep the rather solid rear setup from damaging the axle.
4 watts link with the pivot at the center line of the rear axle.
5 Nicer shocks
6 WIDER RUBBER/wheel tubs (Eventually I'd like to be in the 305-355 range on tire width.


Yes I know I've not mentioned jack about the driveline/engine. I know how to make power I just need some help with this new applying power in the turns concept. I'm used to the ole straight line stuff.


I've considered a 3rd stage being a vette front suspension swap. But I think I can probably get what I want from the 2nd stage.

I currently have a frankland quick change rear with wide 5 hubs that I was considering using in this project. Would give me a strong rear, disc brakes, AGGRESSIVE locker and the ability to run a high gearing on the street for daily driver use then switch to a lower gear for digging out of the corners.

Thoughts? Suggestions? Winning Lottery numbers?

[RobNoLimit]

ok, FIRST, go over to the www.67-72chevytrucks.com site and check out a thread in the suspension section called "Make it handle". really, do it.
then, set a target for the finish, not the first steps. This will help with decisions on what to do. If 'I' was going to do this, and I had the ability to box the frame and A-arms, I might take a different path instead.
1. Raise the OE front crossmember 1 1/2", move it forward 1/2", tip it back 2*.
2. Raise the rear frame rails 4" (I'll post up 'how-to' drawings if you want) over the complete rear suspension area, then back down for the rear bed and bumper mount.
3. Now box the frame from the IFS to the panhard rod mount crossmember. use 1/8". Also, 'X' in the mid crossmembers. - you did read the "Make it handle" thread right?
4 Modify the lower control arm. Use parts from Howe oe Speedway, move the lower ball joint forward 3/4". Measure, mark, clamp the arm in a drill press, use a holesaw to bore the new location, weld in a new cup.
5. Urethane bushings - EXCEPT in the trailing arms. urethane bushings stop the from rotating, good for drag racing, bad for cornering
6. Save your money up, and buy a swaybar with links. The 1t bar binds, just like the 1/2T and 3/4T bar.
7. axle flip - this will most likely be a trailing arm /coil spring truck, It will be 4" drop with the frame rail raised, add a 2" block and keep the stock length spring. - notch is no longer needed.
8. Drop spindles. 3" drop spindles, with the 1 1/2" raised crossmember will net a 4 1/2" drop. (6" rear at this point), keep stock length springs for now.
9. OE length front shocks, use No Limit or other rear relocating mounts for long stroke shocks
10. Steering on a raised crossmember can be a headache. spend a few $$s here. use one of our C10 Rack and Pinion kits to replace the OE box, pitman arm and linkage. 2 1/2 turns lock to lock, saves 40 lbs. (makes up for boxing plates)
11. focus on 18 x 10 wheels and 295 rubber all around. it will fit, use the same backspace ft & rr and you can rotate the tires to save the tread life.

[bovey]

Motorbreath, heed Rob's advice. The man builds seriously fast stuff. You will find there are many on this forum who build great trucks and cars for that matter. Think long term. Try to avoid decisions that limit you in the long term. Learning to drive has more benefit that 14" brakes, etc, etc.


11. focus on 18 x 10 wheels and 295 rubber all around. it will fit, use the same backspace ft & rr and you can rotate the tires to save the tread life.

Rob - question - I was looking at max wheel and tire combos yesterday with a stock-ish front a-arms 2" drop spindle/2 inch spring on my '71 GMC. Do you feel it is possible (or smart) to modify the lower control arm to fit 18x11/315s or is it more work than it's worth considering you can fit 295s on 10s. The same back spacing with the 10/295 combo is a bonus of this route too. Just curious.

Thanks,
bovey

[Motorbreath]

Thank you Rob!!!! The Hellboy C10 was/is my inspiration for my build although I'm wanting to go with a newer bodystyle, 73-88 or 89 when they went with the really squared body.

A couple questions for you before I get into the recommended reading.
1. On the 73 and up it is a leaf spring rear. Would changing to the trailing arm setup of the earlier model be worth sourcing the parts/doing the mods? (if needed, not sure but the crossmember for the arms may still bolt in the later years.) Or would going with a quality 4 link be the better route?

2. I'm not opposed to relocating the stock K member. That said would it be a better time investment changing to something like a jegster g machine K member (http://www.jegs.com/i/Jegster/550/42000/10002/-1), so that I could source Mustang II components?

3. Air vs. Springs? Probably wont be any serious competition with the truck, I'd run autocross more for the thrill of pushing the truck without threat of being ticketed/impounded. I like the idea of air for the ride quality adjustments but I wouldn't want to completely defeat the previously mentioned work that was put into it just for a little bit more comfort. After all a good suspension seat is much cheaper than air ride anyways lol

Again I want to thank you man. So many forums out there are just so hard to get help like you've offered.

[Motorbreath]

I'm 6 pages into the "Make it handle" thread. Tons of good stuff!

[Smittys]

You can turn corners on air just fine TRUST ME! Rob is a very smart man listen to him!

[PCHRODS]

You can turn corners on air just fine TRUST ME! Rob is a very smart man listen to him!

Man you guys gotta be careful.....you're going to build rob's ego up too much he won't fit in hellboy anymore!! haha Just kidding....He does now a thing or two about suspension. He is currently running the fastest truck out there.

[RobNoLimit]

Oops, I missed the "mid-70's" as in Square Body part. See, I make mistakes. So, re-visiting the OP, I'll stick with my plan for the front, the raised rails, and the boxing. But for the rear, you need to make a choice. Air or Leaf. Lets start with leaf springs. The good: simplicity, inexpensive, and can work very well. The bad, difficult to tune, appx 450 hp limit. (spring wrap). So, what to do. First, the OE 1/2 ton spring is too stiff, and there isn't much you can do about it, and the shackle design is for a 'load bearing' suspension (not good for ride and handling). The solution here is softer springs and a 'car like' shackle assembly. Try some mid 90's S-10 leafs, fitted into the OE 1/2T front mount, then fab in the S-10 shackle. For an upgrade, install spherical bearings in the front spring eyes (Speedway or Howe), and use a "spring slider" instead of a shackle. The rear axle will mount on top 'flipped'. Changing the height of the shackle or slider can be done to set the ride height. Upgrade with a sway bar - some custom fitting will be needed - you can use an S-10 bar, or 2nd gen camaro rear bar (best bet), and some good shocks. If you add a Watts link or Panhard to this, you will need the roll center to be 3" to 4" below the axle C.L. (no urethane bushings in the leafs)
Air. #1, don't mix leafs and air. A leaf spring acts as an axle locating devise and a spring. An Air bag is just a spring. mix a bag and a leaf and you have two springs, to soften up the ride you pull some leafs out, and loose some of the 'axle locating' ability (more spring wrap). So, if you want air, go to a 4-bar. .... wait, don't shoot. What about the trailing arm? in a 63-72, the frame is made wider for the coils, and yes, the trailing arm is better than a leaf. But, the Square Body frame is a little narrower at 34" O.D. So, IMHO, I would skip the trailing arm idea and go to a well designed 4-bar. Of coarse, I will recommend our No Limit 4-bar, but, do your homework, there are some other good units out there. Next question, Bag & Shock or Shockwave. Shockwaves offer a cleaner install, and force you to use a better quality shock, thats what they're built on, so performance is 'forced' on you. They tend to be a bit firmer than a Bag & Shock set up. Cost is a bit higher. A bag and shock set up is more budget friendly, but requires more fab time to install. Also, there is the shock issue. For a street driver/weekender, I would eventually want a good shock, Ridetech or Bilstien or Viking, but be honest about the total budget, four good shock can run $600 in a hurry.
If I was on a "step" plan, (for an air build) I would consider doing the basic chassis mods, and starting out with a spring and drop spindle in front, and spend the coin in the rear, 4-bar and a Bag & Shock, this is softer and will help the truck stay hooked. Use a shrader valve to fill the bags until you can afford a good 4-way control - RideTech 4100 E3 - . Later, consider the RideTech A-arm & Shockwave upgrade in front as an alternative to a standard Bag & Shock set up. It's cleaner, better geometry. Next, step up to a good rear shock. (if you hang a big enough stocking for Christmas, the shocks will fit in it)
I hope that's a little closer to what your after.
Now, you guys can take it easy on me. All I have to do is have a suspension discussion with Mike Maier or Ron Sutton and I'm lost and humbled. Besides, I want to make sure my hat still fits. :)

[RobNoLimit]

You can turn corners on air just fine TRUST ME! Rob is a very smart man listen to him!

You have a great group here to help. Don't let Smitty fool you. This isn't just the fastest Truck out there on air, it's the fastest 'anything' out there on air!

[RobNoLimit]

Man you guys gotta be careful.....you're going to build rob's ego up too much he won't fit in hellboy anymore!! haha Just kidding....He does now a thing or two about suspension. He is currently running the fastest truck out there.

Here's another one. Drag Trucks, Auto-x'ers., and now the C-10R. Yeah, he knows a thing or two.

[Motorbreath]

Thanks again Rob you have more than answered my questions. I looked at a 73 today that might be mine if he follows through with trading for my ratrodded 40 chevy that never got finished.

[Motorbreath]

My understanding of a watts link in relation to roll center is the watts link should be installed with the pivot at the roll center or am I confused with the roll center ends up where the watts is centered.... or am I totally off lol

[Motorbreath]

I have a Frankland QC with wide 5 hubs currently in my 40 pickup. Wonder if it's worth tossing it in. It has a rather aggressive locker in it right now. I like the idea of putting some cambered tubes on it as well as the idea of being able to ride around on taller gears for trips/around town stuff then be able to flip them for more dig out of a corner.

[Motorbreath]

Would a Porterbuild Touring dropmember accomplish the same thing as the K-member mods you mentioned Rob? I've seen it mentioned a lot in various places. It says it moves the wheels forward but I didn't see how much.

[Motorbreath]

Not that the Dropmember is any where near in the budget, It's just more of a curiosity thing.

[RobNoLimit]

Well, this is where being honest about your goals/abilities/budget comes into play. Here's a total look at the raised OE front budget.
Raise X member, material/hardware 150.00
Parts to modify LCA/Ball joint sockets 100.00
Drop Spindles 300.00
Front springs 100.00
Rack and Pinion kit 850.00
Front sway bar 200.00
Front shocks and upper mounts 200.00
Front disk kit for drop spindles 280.00
So, at this point, you have $2180.00 in parts and material, and this will require appx 30 hrs of fab time and labor. you will have mostly stock geometry, with more caster, and better steering. You will have 1 1/2" more ground clearance (compared to a truck with dropped spindles and springs, OE X-member) The truck will drive and handle much better than stock. And if your smart, you'll STOP here. - with the OE parts that is.
Now, I don't work at Porterbuilt, Not sure of the pricing. But, you seam to be bouncing around here. Here is what I can tell you. Our No Limit WideRide IFS is a bolt-in. Moves the wheel forward into the center, drops 5" to 6" with billit RideTech coil-overs, cuts 180 lbs (also has a drastic reduction in unsprung weight, due to the ZG spindle and brake assy), Includes the sway bar, and p/S rack. Truss plate motor mounts are also included. Complete IFS kit list $3295. This includes 12" drilled and slotted brakes. You can compare and shop with others. Again, not sure of Porterbuilt's geometry, but if you use 'truck' spindles, you are forced somewhat to follow that geometry path. Also, please look into the full turn steering angle. Many IFS kits, and steering rack upgrade have LESS of a turn angle that the OE truck - that's not what we're looking for.
Now, on to the Wide-5. Yep, it's cool, and incredibly strong. But, how to fit them on the front? Your best bet is to have Howe make a set of spindles for you that are a direct replacement of the spindle you are going to use. This will cost appx $600. Then, what will you do about wheels? Intro will make you custom wide-5 wheels for about $1800.
Last. Yes, for the most part, the roll center on a Watts link is at the pivit point of the rocker. So, if you want the roll center lower than the axle, where do you mount the lower link? And, how close to the ground will it get? You can custom build an underslung chassis, and mount the Watts link horizontally under the QC housing, as I did on the HellBoy, And it works good. Honestly, the truck is not noticably faster or smother this way, but it did shave a few lbs. But, again, we're now way outside the realm of a 'Budget' build or something achievable with medium fab skills.

[Motorbreath]

Yeah I'm not trying to bounce around it's just the more I read about doing this the more "interesting" options I see here and there. I checked on the specs of that touring drop member and it seems the only thing it does other than modding the factory stuff is get the lower control arms up a little higher (3"drop") so it can lay frame without the arms being in the dirt. It might offer more engine clearance but that is achievable by modding the stock k member. For the budget builder (ME) that drop member looks like it will eat up way too much funds.

After all the help you have given me on this I think I have a good idea of how I want to stage it. I think modding the stock setup up front and doing the rear frame mods with s10 springs is how I will start. (Question: When doing the s10 springs with the rear slider shackle is it best to mount the slider level with the front eye?) Then I'll bag it/4 link the rear. I'm not trying to have some super competitive truck, I just live in the mountains of WV and think a truck that turns half decent and looks good doing it would be fun and VERY different than all the other trucks around. The mini truck scene is big and the lifted 4x4 and diesel truck scene is big here but a truck that handles would stand out like a sore thumb here. I like the low buck (in comparison) approach to modding the factory parts to work better. The whole idea I was tossing around about the Quick change and wide 5 was just because I happen to have a quick change right now in my rat rodded 40 chevy pickup. I saw the wide 5 setup on Hellboy and thought it was pretty cool but I'll never need that much. Well I say that now but we all know how that goes sometimes. Thanks again for the help man.

As far as power goes I don't want to go stupid on it. I came across an article recently on a low buck 400hp LS1 package. It hinges on finding an engine with wiring and comp in the $600-700 range but I do see them here and there. Knowing a good t56 setup is probably out of the budget for a while any suggestions on a trans for the mean time? The truck will probably start out with a standard 350 in the 300hp range before any type of LS swap happens. I'm used to straight line stuff but I'd think something with fewer on track shifts would be best if I was going to hit the occasional autocross with it. That said would a powerglide with a full manual kit be good for something like that? Or? Ok so I've drifted far away from the best turny stuff... lol

[bovey]

I understand completely. I researched for months, asked a lot of questions and made a lot of phone calls. I started with doing a bolt-on IFS, then added a 4 link. I was trying to decide between doing it myself, or hiring it out as my skills are there(ish), but my work shop is not. Once I looked at the numbers and it made more sense to buy a chassis...

But then I researched all of the chassis available and decided that wasn't right either - FOR MY USE. The stuff out there is awesome, but I had some odd needs. So, I finally settled on some custom components mixed with a new chassis. This took months and will take many months more, but I'm building a truck that will be a driver and a racer in harsh conditions.

As Rob says, just be really honest with yourself about the end use. All builds are custom in the end, and purpose built - we each just have a different purpose.

Watch out for upgrading later and investing too much time and money is stuff you don't really want.

Give'r.

[Guyt699]

As Rob says, just be really honest with yourself about the end use. All builds are custom in the end, and purpose built - we each just have a different purpose.

Watch out for upgrading later and investing too much time and money is stuff you don't really want.

Give'r.

Words well spoken. I have bought more crap that I didn't need or could have made better than focusing on what I really wanted.... A truck I could drive to shows, cruise around in and autox. I know I'm not going to win shows or races but it is still fun doing both and now that my kid is into it makes it even better.

[bdiamond]

What is the benefit of tipping the crossmember back 2*?

[Motorbreath]

Increased caster.

[Motorbreath]

When doing the s10 leaf springs in the rear is it best to have the eyes parallel to the ground? Or one higher than the other, say the rear eye lower than the front or?