Cageless 5pt harness?

[Nicks67GTO]

Does anyone make a nice cageless harness for auto x? Im not caging my GTO but i would like to be able to stick a 5 point harness in there for track days. I think I saw Project Olds from PHR had something like that but I cannot recall who made them....

[killer69]

THERE IS NO WAY to do it and make the car safe. either use the stock belts or do it right. you cant run the shoulder harnesses to anything but the cross bar and still be safe. even then placement of the mount is critical. I was just reading something the other day think about this. if your 150lb and hit something going 30mph your body will hit the steering wheel, dash or what ever with a fore of 4500 lbs. 30MPH !!!!
MIGHT want to make sure your seat belts are mounted correctly

[Barrrf]

I thought I saw some that were mounted to a reinforced package tray? Obviously the standard package tray wont do.

Regardless, mounting the harness to your seat bolts is not acceptable.

[GrabberGT]

I went ahead welded in a removable harness bar in mine. No cage, just the bar. But still... its said that you should not use a shoulder harness without a cage as you will have no protection in a rollover scenario.

[Scott Parkhurst]

I also went the harness bar route...I won't cage my 4-door wagon, so it's the next best option.

[NOT A TA]

A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

[Nicks67GTO]

THERE IS NO WAY to do it and make the car safe. either use the stock belts or do it right. you cant run the shoulder harnesses to anything but the cross bar and still be safe. even then placement of the mount is critical. I was just reading something the other day think about this. if your 150lb and hit something going 30mph your body will hit the steering wheel, dash or what ever with a fore of 4500 lbs. 30MPH !!!!
MIGHT want to make sure your seat belts are mounted correctly

Im confused. 47 year old stock Pontiac lap belts are safer than brand new 4 or 5 pt belts that are anchored to the stock locations, across the lap, then adding 1 spot to anchor yourself back?? I would be putting these in to keep me in place for auto X days. I understand that they arent ideal in a rollover or a front end collision. A roll cage is great with a helmet on but sticking one in my GTO isnt an option and IMO makes the car less safe for daily street use without a helmet.

[Nicks67GTO]

A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

Those look like the hot ticket....and they are DOT approved.

[Nicks67GTO]

I went ahead welded in a removable harness bar in mine. No cage, just the bar. But still... its said that you should not use a shoulder harness without a cage as you will have no protection in a rollover scenario.

How are they any worse than 47 y/o lap belts?

[SSLance]

How high are your shoulders above the tops of your seat backs? That is what kept be from getting the Schroth ASM Rally harness. My shoulders are 5-6" above the seat back and that is not the ideal situation for shoulder harnesses pointed back down at the back seat bottom.

Also, do some reading on submarining under lap belts in a collision. With just a lap belt, your torso folds forward, lap belt keeps your butt in place. If you have a shoulder harness but no submarine belts, the shoulder harness pulls the lap belt up, the shoulder harness keeps your torso back and your butt slides under the lap belt and internal injuries are worse from the lap belt.

There are better ways to describe it, but I hope that helps paint the picture. I'm in the same boat, I won't track day my car anymore until I fix it...but I am not convinced to do to my car what it takes to fix it correctly.

[rickpaw]

How high are your shoulders above the tops of your seat backs? That is what kept be from getting the Schroth ASM Rally harness. My shoulders are 5-6" above the seat back and that is not the ideal situation for shoulder harnesses pointed back down at the back seat bottom.

Also, do some reading on submarining under lap belts in a collision. With just a lap belt, your torso folds forward, lap belt keeps your butt in place. If you have a shoulder harness but no submarine belts, the shoulder harness pulls the lap belt up, the shoulder harness keeps your torso back and your butt slides under the lap belt and internal injuries are worse from the lap belt.

There are better ways to describe it, but I hope that helps paint the picture. I'm in the same boat, I won't track day my car anymore until I fix it...but I am not convinced to do to my car what it takes to fix it correctly.

^^ same thought. I read somewhere that if the back strap is mounted too low (ie rear seat belt mounting location), the straps potential can compress your spine in a collision, even in a low speed setting such as auto-x.

[jerome]

A Schroth 4 point with ASM might be a better alternative than a 5 point traditional that requires a harness bar. http://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-4

Just because it doesn't require a bar to mount doesn't mean it is a good idea to use without rollover protection. Still have the same issue of being held upright in the event of a rollover.

I am personally installing a Schroth 4 point with ASM along with sub belts to make it a 6 point. However, it is still important to have a roll bar if you are using any sort of solution that involves not being able to lean forward.

[killer69]

Im confused. 47 year old stock Pontiac lap belts are safer than brand new 4 or 5 pt belts that are anchored to the stock locations, across the lap, then adding 1 spot to anchor yourself back?? I would be putting these in to keep me in place for auto X days. I understand that they arent ideal in a rollover or a front end collision. A roll cage is great with a helmet on but sticking one in my GTO isnt an option and IMO makes the car less safe for daily street use without a helmet.

Sorry I am not saying that the "Belts" are not better just the fact that with out a roll bar with a cross bar to correctly mount the shoulder harnesses is not the way to go. as for the lap belts remember also that they are NOT DOT approved either

[killer69]

Those look like the hot ticket....and they are DOT approved.

But even those you need a roll bar with a cross bar to mount correctly.

[MrQuick]

Does anyone make a nice cageless harness for auto x? Im not caging my GTO but i would like to be able to stick a 5 point harness in there for track days. I think I saw Project Olds from PHR had something like that but I cannot recall who made them....


Be safe, get yourself a removable harness bar made.

[SS PUNISHER]

Bolt in 6 point bar...
Or a welded in 6 point... Banging your dome off a well padded bar surely can't be any worse than banging it on a non padded pillar. Just my .02...

[GEARBOXGARAGE]

Be safe, get yourself a removable harness bar made.

I'm looking to do something very similar to this in my C10 for AutoX purposes, how well has it worked out for you?

[WallaceMFG]

The Schroth ASM 4 point harness is designed to work without a sub belt. They say on the site that one of the shoulder straps is designed to stretch which lets your torso move like if you had a stock 3 point system.

[HandOverFist]

Leaning towards the Corbeau 3-point atm... http://soloracer.com/corbeau3ptret.html I really don't care it's not DOT approved...has to be better than the current lap belt only in my '67 El Camino. I like the feature where you may "lock" the retracting mechanism for the times you really want to be snugged in the seat. Rear anchor position/method yet to be determined.

[TheJDMan]

Leaning towards the Corbeau 3-point atm... http://soloracer.com/corbeau3ptret.html I really don't care it's not DOT approved...has to be better than the current lap belt only in my '67 El Camino. I like the feature where you may "lock" the retracting mechanism for the times you really want to be snugged in the seat. Rear anchor position/method yet to be determined.

What's the advantage of the Corbeau belt? The Schroth Rallye-3 is a similar configuration and is DOT legal.

https://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-3

[HandOverFist]

What's the advantage of the Corbeau belt? The Schroth Rallye-3 is a similar configuration and is DOT legal.

https://www.schrothracing.com/tuning/rallye/rallye-3

That one has no inertia retractor...can't lean forward in the seat once fastened. It would feel like I was strapped in one of my race cars...aggravating for street use.

[Peter Mc Mahon]

Wouldn't not leaning forward lead to submarining? I thought that is what is 'good' about stock 3 point?

[Twentyover]

Be careful saying a belt is DOT approved- there are 4 FMVSS standards associated with belts and occupoant protection, some stating such important things as the dye must remain colorfast in UV light, or not smear onto clothing- that have little to do with passenger saftey

[HandOverFist]

No doubt Schoth spent the money (and it was probably considerable) to obtain the DOT stamp of approval. My guess is other manufacturers looked into it and weighed the cost vs liability issues and decided it did not fit into their niche market model.

[MonzaRacer]

I saw a frame that bolted to the car, came up to approx shoulder height, and owner also made reinforcingbbar that connected on the B pillar.
It was removable and owner made a padded cover for the mounts so as to protect anyone who might hit it . Made it look like part of car.
I'll look for pictures.

[Chris_67SS]

I just saw this post today. I made a removable harness bar for my 67 Impala SS. The hoop is dom 1.25 in, 0.120 wall. the hoop stands are dom 1.75 in, 0.120 wall with an 8 in overlap. Struts are cormo 4130 1.55 in, 0.120 wall tube.126079126080

[Zanie]

Ugh! I saw this post and thought I would get an idea for the direction I want to take, now after reading I think I have less of an idea.
In my 73 Vega Wagon, I want it to appear stock, when I'm daily driving it and hitting the local cruise nights.
I have frame rails tucked up underneath so there are no clues that its modified (with the hood closed).
I want a removable bar like the impala above with a 5 point for autocross and a couple road coarse outings.
The removable bar will be tied to my frame rails
When I remove the bar I would like to use my factory 3 point.
The factory three point is actually a lap belt with an add on shoulder belt.
.....perhaps I could use the lap belt from the 5 point and the stock shoulder belt for around town driving.
Just typing that makes me nervous.
Ugh!

[JohnUlaszek]

I've posted this article a couple of times, but I'll do it again because I feel this subject can't get too much attention . This represents the compromise I was willing to live with for a street/track car.
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/additional-tech/1009gmhtp-sparco-seats-s-w-rollbar-install/

I consulted with Joe Marko at HMS Motorsports for the article. Joe is the North American rep for Schroth. I met Joe when I was designing restraint systems for military vehicles.

Do your own research for your specific application and talk to subject matter experts, most of what you read in forums or a magazine is bull**** -- don't gamble with your life.

[ponchoblue]

now thats a cool setup now i want one

[jlwdvm]

The agrument is always"you shouldn't use a shoulder harness without a roll bar". I have a 8-point cage in my 69 Firebird project with Simpson 5-point belts. I wanted to start to use a HANS device for track days with my '16 GT350 (until the Firebird is done)...so I consulted Ron Sutton. We went with a Schroth 4-point ASM belt that attaches to factory belt locations. I don't have a roll bar in the 350. The odds are way better to have a frontal impact at a HPDE than a roll over. With the HANS, factory air bags, and 4-point (along with Ron's advice) I feel safer. To each his/her own though.