Front Lower Control Arm Fail *PICS*

[SicMonte]

Disclaimer: This thread is not meant to bash any manufacturer or product. This was just alarming to me and I wanted to bring it to everyone's attention.


The other day while I was under my car I noticed that my front lower control arms didn't look right on both sides. The coilover was bending the lower shock mount and it looked like the ball joint "plate" wasn't straight anymore, again on both sides. Hmmmmmm......






https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/502-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/502.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/503-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/503.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/504-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/504.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/511-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/511.jpg.html)


https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/509-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/509.jpg.html)

[SicMonte]

I found out (the hard way) that SPC makes a spacer for the lower control arms so that this will not happen with the use of coilovers. Wish I knew that when I installed them, oh well.

My big questions is why is that lower ball joint plate bending?? It is much worse on the driver side than the passenger side.

[SicMonte]

This is the lower control arm ball joint "plate" that was straight when I originally installed it.



https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/531-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/531.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/533-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/533.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/534-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/534.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/444-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/444.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/446-1.jpg (http://s212.photobucket.com/user/SicMonte/media/446.jpg.html)

[andrewb70]

The coil over situation seems like a simple fix. However, the ball joint is troubling. The use of a simple plate is not ideal. There is absolutely no support for that plate, so naturally as the force of the lower ball joint is exerted on the plate, it will only handle so much and then start to bend right at the weld. If you look at how other manufacturers make their lower arms, you will see that most use a tubular pocket for the lower ball joint and then weld the control arm tubes to that. Doing it that way is a much more robust design, although more expensive.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/yhst20865666099910_2271_109394885-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

Are you bottoming the shock out?

[65_LS1_T56]

Are you bottoming the shock out?

Yes, what Donny said and are you frequently hitting the bump stops hard? Both of those would put added stress at the balljoint plate.

[nicks67camaro]

I've had the same thing happen with a set of lowers (camaro applications). I was bottoming out the shock before i installed my progressive rate bump stops. For the ball joint it looks like its starting to bend where the sway bar endlink hole is. Is it reinforced?

Whats your plan?

[BMR Sales]

When you start putting Performance Parts on any Car, they put Stress on other close or corresponding Parts, which become the Weak Link. In your case, you've put Big Meats, Big Brakes, Sway Bar & CoilOvers. Obviously GM never engineered the Cars for these Parts & the usage that we put on the cars. I believe you need to move to Tubular A-Arms - Buy from a Reputable Company like ours or others that are Sponsors here, but Please, Please don't put Chinese Crap on your Car!

T.C.

[dhutton]

When you start putting Performance Parts on any Car, they put Stress on other close or corresponding Parts, which become the Weak Link. In your case, you've put Big Meats, Big Brakes, Sway Bar & CoilOvers. Obviously GM never engineered the Cars for these Parts & the usage that we put on the cars. I believe you need to move to Tubular A-Arms - Buy from a Reputable Company like ours or others that are Sponsors here, but Please, Please don't put Chinese Crap on your Car!

T.C.

Those are SPC control arms made in the USA, not the stock arms.

Where is Mark from SC&C? He should have something to say.

[Marcus SC&C]

Doug, what you have is a perfect example of some very good parts that don`t always work that well together. The SPC lower A arms are probably the most versatile arms on the market. Their modular lower spring seat lets us adj. ride height with convention springs or run coil overs or air suspensions and adjust ride height with those as well (independent of preload or pressure). The lower spring plate is bending because (as you mentioned) SPC sells a coil over installation plate and you`re not using it. That`s a no brainer but it`s being compounded by the second problem, which is that the Ridetech coil overs are best run with the Ridetech lower A arms they were designed for. They have a deep dropped mount (see pics above) that allows them to be run at low ride heights without bottoming the shock piston in the shock body or coil binding the springs. Running them at a low ride height with SPC lowers can cause them to bottom out/bind turning them into oil filled slide hammers. Luckily the Ridetech shocks are very beefy. If you were running cheaper shocks they would probably have ruptured by now. This kind of impact is the only way you`re going to bend a massively thick solid steel plate like that. We`ve seen this same type of damage before (usually with brand Q coil overs) with stock and other aftermarket arms. I called and left you a message. Give me a call and I`ll help you tweak your set up to get it working 100%.

[SicMonte]

When you start putting Performance Parts on any Car, they put Stress on other close or corresponding Parts, which become the Weak Link. In your case, you've put Big Meats, Big Brakes, Sway Bar & CoilOvers. Obviously GM never engineered the Cars for these Parts & the usage that we put on the cars. I believe you need to move to Tubular A-Arms - Buy from a Reputable Company like ours or others that are Sponsors here, but Please, Please don't put Chinese Crap on your Car!

T.C.

Have you seen my build thread? I do have tubular control arms....they are the ones that bent!

[BMR Sales]

Have you seen my build thread? I do have tubular control arms....they are the ones that bent!

Sorry Doug I have not. Marcus's explanation makes sense now that I know. Didn't mean to add confusion.

T.C.

[SicMonte]

Doug, what you have is a perfect example of some very good parts that don`t always work that well together. The SPC lower A arms are probably the most versatile arms on the market. Their modular lower spring seat lets us adj. ride height with convention springs or run coil overs or air suspensions and adjust ride height with those as well (independent of preload or pressure). The lower spring plate is bending because (as you mentioned) SPC sells a coil over installation plate and you`re not using it. That`s a no brainer but it`s being compounded by the second problem, which is that the Ridetech coil overs are best run with the Ridetech lower A arms they were designed for. They have a deep dropped mount (see pics above) that allows them to be run at low ride heights without bottoming the shock piston in the shock body or coil binding the springs. Running them at a low ride height with SPC lowers can cause them to bottom out/bind turning them into oil filled slide hammers. Luckily the Ridetech shocks are very beefy. If you were running cheaper shocks they would probably have ruptured by now. This kind of impact is the only way you`re going to bend a massively thick solid steel plate like that. We`ve seen this same type of damage before (usually with brand Q coil overs) with stock and other aftermarket arms. I called and left you a message. Give me a call and I`ll help you tweak your set up to get it working 100%.

What would you suggest?

[Marcus SC&C]

What would you suggest?

Like I said, give a call. We need details to refine the setup. Spring rate, spring compressed length, preload setting, dampening settings etc. just for starters. We can send you a set of coil over mounting plates, that`s no biggie but we have to ascertain the exact reason that it`s bottoming the travel out. There are a few simple tests to see if it`s coil binding, if it is then it may be as simple as adding more spring rate and removing some preload. If it`s the piston bottoming in the shock body then adding spring rate and dampening will mask the issue but it would be nice to get you some more bump travel by modifying the arms or upper shock mount. Naturally we should inspect the arms closely and see if they can be repaired and used or if they should be replaced. I`m sure between you, me, and the guys at SPC and Ridetech we can get you dialed in nicely.

[marolf101x]

Doug,

We would like to know the distance between the shock mounts.
The best way to do this is measure when the car is at ride height.
Then remove the spring so you can cycle the suspension and measure fully compressed and fully extended.
Then remove the shock and fully compress the suspension and measure again. Typically you will reach ball joint bind or the tire will hit the inner fender.
You typically will not coil bind a Hyperco spring, so it's more likely that the shock is bottoming out on itself.

What we are trying to figure out is when the shock bottoms out. We can compare that to what our arms provide and go from there.

[SicMonte]

Brit,

I will get all those measurements next week. My shop is full of mini vans, yes mini vans, that need service right now. Once my lift is free I will dive into this bad boy and see what's going on. Btw I was working with Darren/Jason when I originally ordered these Coilovers so they might have some info for you.

[rentedmule]

I pushed out the lower mount area on my Spohn LCAs in a similar way. Mine was definitely due to the coils bottoming out on themselves and not allowing the shock to move. I had some trouble finding the proper spring rate when I first put it together and the arms took some pretty hard hits in the process (you can actually see the turns of the coils almost laying against one another in the pic). They've been fine since I upped the spring rate and the 'bulge' hasn't gotten any worse.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/S6302508-1.jpg (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/rentedmule/media/S6302508.jpg.html)

[SicMonte]

I pushed out the lower mount area on my Spohn LCAs in a similar way. Mine was definitely due to the coils bottoming out on themselves and not allowing the shock to move. I had some trouble finding the proper spring rate when I first put it together and the arms took some pretty hard hits in the process (you can actually see the turns of the coils almost laying against one another in the pic). They've been fine since I upped the spring rate and the 'bulge' hasn't gotten any worse.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/04/S6302508-1.jpg (http://s78.photobucket.com/user/rentedmule/media/S6302508.jpg.html)

yours don't look too bad. Are you running the "coil over spacer/plate" thingy?

and WOW....your coils are pretty much touching...that's pretty much a solid mount then.

I am running 900lb front springs with my Ridetech coilovers and the ride/handling is awesome.

[rentedmule]

They're not too bad but the bow is definitely quite noticeable in person. I'm not running the spacer but the Spohn arms are supposed to be built specifically for the QA1 setup. Those were 350lb springs in that pic and I'm up to 550lb now. I don't think the QA1s are in the same league as the Ridetechs, the ride is decent but definitely nothing to brag about!

[Rod]

Like I said, give a call. We need details to refine the setup. Spring rate, spring compressed length, preload setting, dampening settings etc. just for starters. We can send you a set of coil over mounting plates, that`s no biggie but we have to ascertain the exact reason that it`s bottoming the travel out. There are a few simple tests to see if it`s coil binding, if it is then it may be as simple as adding more spring rate and removing some preload. If it`s the piston bottoming in the shock body then adding spring rate and dampening will mask the issue but it would be nice to get you some more bump travel by modifying the arms or upper shock mount. Naturally we should inspect the arms closely and see if they can be repaired and used or if they should be replaced. I`m sure between you, me, and the guys at SPC and Ridetech we can get you dialed in nicely.



What would you suggest?



They're not too bad but the bow is definitely quite noticeable in person. I'm not running the spacer but the Spohn arms are supposed to be built specifically for the QA1 setup. Those were 350lb springs in that pic and I'm up to 550lb now. I don't think the QA1s are in the same league as the Ridetechs, the ride is decent but definitely nothing to brag about!

:smoke: ummm

[SicMonte]

I will get this front end apart and inspect/measure everything once I get the car to the trans shop and back again. I have to get my automatic fixed correctly in order to sell it to help finance my t56 swap.

[MCB Matt]

This is a great example of why Ridetech Coilovers and Arms together are a great way to go, too often parts are mixed together and don't work!

I always try to shy away from selling T-Bar lower Coilover mount systems.....It puts an insane amount of force on two small bolts and the arm pockets...Just imagine what that would have done to a China arm!!

[killer69]

This is a great example of why Ridetech Coilovers and Arms together are a great way to go, too often parts are mixed together and don't work!

I always try to shy away from selling T-Bar lower Coilover mount systems.....It puts an insane amount of force on two small bolts and the arm pockets...Just imagine what that would have done to a China arm!!

Matt our system uses the T Bar mount on the lower and no mater HOW much AIR my nova gets there has never been an issue, Speedtech has NEVER had a call from a customer with a bent T Bar, just so people don't jet the wrong idea about your statement.

[MCB Matt]

Right Blake, for us its mainly the guys that want to run a bolt-in Coilover with stock or China lower arms...That, IMO, is NOT GOOD! I have sold a lot of your arms with T-Bar coilovers without issue.

I just feel arms that are Coil over specific offer the best alignment of the coilover in the stroke, we all know about the QA1 bolt-in coilover issues many first Gen Camaro guys have seen!

Matt

[chevelletiger]

Matt our system uses the T Bar mount on the lower and no mater HOW much AIR my nova gets there has never been an issue, Speedtech has NEVER had a call from a customer with a bent T Bar, just so people don't jet the wrong idea about your statement.
Blake,what thickness of plate do you guys use for your lower control arms?yes that nova has got some air between the tires at el torro before!

[chevelletiger]

I hope you can get everything sorted out doug.as long as you didnt get hurt,parts can be changed.good luck with the car.
Phil

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Blake,what thickness of plate do you guys use for your lower control arms?yes that nova has got some air between the tires at el torro before!

The spring cups are 3/16ths laser cut plate.

[heavybreather]

Wouldn't call myself an expert, but have built quite a few tubular arms myself and had the exact same issue. If the tubes welded to the plate are cut straight across and in line with one another (which appears to be the case judging from the photo) it creates a bend. Had to cut the tubes diagonally to eliminate the issue. I guess welded in gussets would work too but that adds more steps to the assembly process.

[SicMonte]

I hope you can get everything sorted out doug.as long as you didnt get hurt,parts can be changed.good luck with the car.
Phil

Thanks!! When I took the front suspension apart the damage was much more apparent. The lower arms are all bent up....I will never use that style arm again with a coilover. I guess that's what I get for mixing up parts!