Pro Touring Vehicle Value

[austinjjesus]

Hey guys I've been looking around at pro touring cars for sale and I see prices literally all over the place. So I was wondering what really determines the value of a pro touring car? Is there a guide or something along those lines that people go off of or is the value whatever people are willing to pay? Just curious about this topic. Thanks

[Schwartz Performance]

-Who built it? (Reputable shop vs Joe's backyard mechanic shop)
-What kind of hardware? (LS9 with 700hp and a 6 speed with paddle shifters is worth a lot more than a 1990 Chevy suburban 350 with a turbo 350 trans)
-Suspension? (Full Schwartz Performance chassis vs a backyard lowering kit, aka cutting the front springs)
-Build level? (Was it completely redone with new quarters? Has everything been documented? Or did a quick n dirty bodyshop slap bondo over rust? Does it have a $800 Maaco paint job or a $20,000 job?)
-What kind of car is it, and does anyone want it? Chances are a 1977 Camaro is worth less than a 1970 Cuda given the same build level. Don't quote me on that but just an example!!

That's all I've got for now...

-Dale

[austinjjesus]

Appreciate your input. I'm just curious. I was looking at barrett Jackson results and the cheapest pro touring car i saw was a 90 Chevy 1500 with an ls1 that sold for 25k. Thought that was a little high but who knows. Builder wasn't reputable (anyone I've ever heard of). Anyways thanks

[Scott Parkhurst]

It's accomplishments are important too. Has it participated in big events? How did it do? Accomplishments matter.

[carbuff]

Barrett Jackson is probably not a good resource for determining real-world pricing...

[seekins]

I think allot depends on how much someone is willing to pay too. I know when mines done i wouldnt take 100k for it, but im also not willing to pay that for any car either..

[Schwartz Performance]

It's accomplishments are important too. Has it participated in big events? How did it do? Accomplishments matter.

Yes very much so.

-Dale

[mc84_zz4]

You can tell the quality level often by the parts and modifications done.

I have seen too many auction cars labeled as 'pro-touring' even though they only had some newer wheels/tires (under $1,500 all-in) others had 'corvette' suspension, which was only a front caliper conversion..
Then you see a real high-end build fetch $70-90k and reach that price quickly.

[Barrrf]

I will say that some of this only matters to the people that know what it means. Some of the people on here know who Schwartz is, know who Art Morrison is, know all the good builders.

Other people just want a "pro-touring" car. I see it on ebay all the time. "Pro-touring" ebay style is a set of Boss 332s and decent paint job.

Having said that - if you know what to look for then you know about how much the car is worth.

[BMR Sales]

-Who built it? (Reputable shop vs Joe's backyard mechanic shop)
-What kind of hardware? (LS9 with 700hp and a 6 speed with paddle shifters is worth a lot more than a 1990 Chevy suburban 350 with a turbo 350 trans)
-Suspension? (Full Schwartz Performance chassis vs a backyard lowering kit, aka cutting the front springs)
-Build level? (Was it completely redone with new quarters? Has everything been documented? Or did a quick n dirty bodyshop slap bondo over rust? Does it have a $800 Maaco paint job or a $20,000 job?)
-What kind of car is it, and does anyone want it? Chances are a 1977 Camaro is worth less than a 1970 Cuda given the same build level. Don't quote me on that but just an example!!

That's all I've got for now...

-Dale

I'll add to Dale's Comment

We have seen so-called Reputable Shops do Great Builds 1 day and rip off Customers the Next. But some of the nicest cars that I have ever seen have come out of somebody's Garage ( yes, maybe they had someone else Paint it or build the Motor), so discount someone that knows what they are doing. But there are also Hacks out there.

Yes, The Hardware Counts - right now the Ls Motors are Hot, but trends run hot & cold. Ls1 used to be cool, now Ls3 and better are the Hot Ticket.

To expand on Suspension, you have New Frames, Well-Built Suspension Components and then Chinese Junk

Build Quality - with the advent of good replacement panels, a lot of Quarters are now replaced vs repaired. However there are still good bodymen out there that can do "real" metal work. Paint can vary all over the Place - prep is key. I've seen Great $3,000 Paint Jobs and crappy $10k jobs. Then was the car driven where it might have some road flaws or is it a Trailer Queen.

Yeah, what you start with determines your audience & demand.

eBay & Barrett Jackson are not the Best Barometers but the most popular. eBay can be OK or Very Bad, Barrett Jackson things get crazy with Booze, Money & Excitement.

The last thing to consider is the Buyers - some are well-informed, others don't have a Clue. The amount of money they have determines things as well. I have a Billionaire Friend who I find cars for every once in a while - I found him a GT40 that was 1 of 6 Made that was $1.3 Mil and he wasn't excited saying it was Too Rich for his Wallet. A month later he found a Porsche RSK that he paid $2.75 Mil that has some issues. I have seen him buy a particular car model sight unseen that was in really good condition, but then never drove it and it ended up with other car parts sitting on top of it - he gave it to one of his employees!. Then he bought another one that was not as good. then he sold that one and bought another that was really nice. He told me that he found one even nicer and would be getting rid of another.

T.C.

[austinjjesus]

Thanks for all of the input guys. I guess it's all just a mixture of everything that goes Into the vehicle along with it's capabilities. The only reason I used barrett Jackson is because the cars are actually being sold at that price rather than listed then dealt for lower than asking. Once again, all input appreciated. Thanks

[srh3trinity]

Take whatever it costs to build and subtract 25-40% and that is what most of them seem to bring unless you keep with common colors or find somebody that just absolutely loves everything about the car. There have been more than a few cars that probably went for the price of parts alone or less.

[BMR Sales]

Thanks for all of the input guys. I guess it's all just a mixture of everything that goes Into the vehicle along with it's capabilities. The only reason I used barrett Jackson is because the cars are actually being sold at that price rather than listed then dealt for lower than asking. Once again, all input appreciated. Thanks

Don't forget the the B-J Prices don't include the Commission for for Barrett Jackson which is probably about 10%

[BMR Sales]

Take whatever it costs to build and subtract 25-40% and that is what most of them seem to bring unless you keep with common colors or find somebody that just absolutely loves everything about the car. There have been more than a few cars that probably went for the price of parts alone or less.

This where it gets tricky. If you have a Shop do the Whole Car then the Labor is a Big Factor and it's documented. If you do the Build, you probably keep track of the Hours (and Beers) involved, so the Asking Price is whatever the Person thinks their car is worth.

When I do a Project, I'm the Project Manager and do most of the work myself. I will have my Engine Builder Friend do his deal (even though I'm capable) and let another guy Paint. I do the rest, but I don't factor in the Time Buying the Car, going to pick it up, Cost Factoring in my Garage, Tools & Lift. But my priority is not profit, it's knowing I did it. One of my 2 current Projects will make money and the other will not.

I guess what I find interesting is the Top End Expensive Cars - I know what Motors, Trannies, Suspension, Body & Paint Costs. But then the Asking Prices are way above those Costs. I just have a hard time swallowing the Cost of the Labor that some shops charge. To charge 6 Figures for mostly labor seems nuts, as I just can't fathom it.

[Roger Poirier]

A lot of pro-touring cars are actually resto-mods. After being on this site for many years there is a hugh difference between the two. Are you looking to take it the track to race the car or is it to be street driven? I put my car in the class of a high end resto-mod. Yet it still cost me big bucks to complete the car.

Know what your looking for, just remember you get what you pay for.

[Schwartz Performance]

A lot of pro-touring cars are actually resto-mods. After being on this site for many years there is a hugh difference between the two. Are you looking to take it the track to race the car or is it to be street driven? I put my car in the class of a high end resto-mod. Yet it still cost me big bucks to complete the car.

Know what your looking for, just remember you get what you pay for.

The Pro Touring name has kind of become a replacement for RestoMod for a lot of people, unfortunately. I think we can all agree that they are different on this board :)

[BMR Sales]

The Pro Touring name has kind of become a replacement for RestoMod for a lot of people, unfortunately. I think we can all agree that they are different on this board :)

I Agree, Resto-Mod I've always associated with Barrett-Jackson, cuz that's all they talk about

[groho]

I am by no means an expert in pro-touring, but I am building my own, meant to enjoy, for both driving and track. Can I afford the top end products and materials, absolutely not, but a well thought out project, that can hit the track one day, and drive across country the next, is in my eye a pro-touring car. It doesn't have to be $100K. I can afford TCP, Wilwood, Maier Racing, AFR, Recaro, and five years of busted knuckles building it. Sorry if I might offend here, yes, I'm stereotyping, much of these high end cars are either owned by ones who don't know what a box-end wrench is, but have the money to buy what ever they want, or, its businesses that build the cars in-house, or use sponsorship to finance it. FACT - What they build for min cost in-house, still cost you and me thousands. I have great admiration for companies like DSE and Maier Racing, and the shops that build these cars, because I know the hard work and sweat needed to do it. You have to look at these cars and admire the perfect welding, or fitment, and the thought out package that makes them an absolute joy to drive. Been to B/J auction, and not impressed. In fact know several people who bought there, including one who just spent thousands getting his out of state prize registered in CA. Allot of money, and overpriced cars, to say I've got 1 of 600. To that I say, "I've got 1 of 1, one that I built." Build it (right), drive it (like you stole it), enjoy (the hell out of) it. Coming down off my soapbox now.....thank you for letting me vent.

[groho]

BTW, love this forum, I've learned much, and collected ideas and perspectives. Please keep it coming.

[Schwartz Performance]

Groho, what you haven't thought about for our (or any other shop's) in-house builds is the fact that an employee who would normally be working on a billable job at the shop rate, is now working on a non-billable job. Not only does this cost US the shop rate from not working on a customers car, it costs us their wages as well.
Just a different way of looking at it. It still costs us a lot of money even if some of the products are donated.. And not every company has the marketing budget to give stuff away. :)

-Dale

[vintageracer]

What's a PT Car Worth????

Determine a price for the car YOU would like as a PT car that you would buy in "Needs Restored" condition.

ADD to the above number the cost of 500 hours to 1,500+ hours of BILLABLE labor at $50.00/hour or more that will be needed to build the car into a REAL PT car. By "Real PT Car" I mean just that! A real built to the hilt PT car and not some "Resto-Mod" the seller is pimping as a "PT Car".

ADD to those numbers the RETAIL COST of ALL the parts needed to build the car. This includes restoration parts, body parts, paint, interior, PT Parts, Suspension, Brakes, Engine, Transmission, Rear-End and On and On! I think you get the picture. Remember you like the rest of us are a nobody so you PT parts will not be "Free To Good Home" or heavily discounted.

Once you have determined ALL the above COSTS add all three numbers together and then DIVIDE that total Dollar Number by 2.

That should give you a real good idea of a good Market Value of most REAL PT cars for sale today.

The market changes just as trends in the hobby changes. Most folks don't look for "Yesterdays Big Thing" in PT cars which means cars built a couple of years ago are "old school", not current in technology and their market value reflects that.

Don't believe me?

Look at arguably ONE OF IF NOT THE BEST PT Type Cars ever built that being Bob Johnsons G Force Cuda. It won EVERYTHING there was to win and countless magazine articles and TV spots. $1MM to build and after winning EVERYTHING a year and half later the car SELLS for $500,000. Time, trends and people move on when it concerns a top notch and well promoted car and when that happens the price DROPS QUICKLY!

In most cases that price drop is FAR WORSE for a "No Name" Nice PT Car that most of us here will own.

Hope this confuses you even more!

By the way "I" still think the "G Force Cuda" is still the BEST PT TYPE car ever built!

Simply Magnificent!

[groho]

I'll vouch for the 1500 hours of labor!

[BMR Sales]

I'll vouch for the 1500 hours of labor!

I guess that is what is hard for many to swallow - 1500 is 37.5 Weeks of 40 Hour Work Weeks - you better not be taking Bathroom breaks while you are on my Clock!

[1989GTA]

I don't know. The TV Show "Overhaulin" does all that in a week. :)

[go-fish]

I would say the G-Force 'cuda is up there but a little too much street rod meets SCCA for me to say it's the quintessential P-T car. A work of art but so much so that it's almost in a class outside (and above) Pro-Touring. Amazing automobile.

Lastly, and to the meat and potatoes to the subject. When looking at garage builds or shop builds, you have to do your research on them both. Best of Show will pop up on searches as will other reputable shops. Also, don't just look at the shops website. No need in even looking that up. Anyone can create a web page and put anything on it. Example, look at the shop associated with Galpin Ford (the Pimp My Ride place). Look at their website and look at the difference between what they have on it vs. what is being said about them on other sites. It makes researching cars built by companies as easily as your Google-Fu is refined. Source the crowd for your info!

When it comes to individuals it gets a little tougher but who in this day and age hasn't documented, on the web, their over the top home build. If a car is for sale out there and it has no internet history then you need to get a parts list and inspect the car yourself. You also need to know where those parts stack up against their competition. You will need to know the visual difference between good and bad welds. Receipts, receipts, receipts.

If a Garage built car has been built with a build thread to accompany it the internet (the crowd) will tell you the quality. That's the point I'm trying to make on the garage build cars. Are reputable, well known, people chiming in and saying things like, "Nice build!"? Are there not any posts other that the OP? It makes it exponentially more difficult if there is no internet history. That's when, to go with what I said above, you need to become knowledgeable about the overall aftemarket that especially pertains to the model you're looking at. You also need to get the specific intel on the builder through looking at their journey with building that car.

How do you guys feel you should go about buying a home built car that just pops up for sale with now internet documentation? No reciepts? Doesn't it seem odd in this day and age that nobody would document the build, keep receipts, .... ? I know they pop up on ebay all the time. I'm not in the market for a P-T car but if I was I wouldn't have ebay as my primary source for a finished car. I would be looking at "For Sale" sections on websites such as this. I feel you would get a lot more historical data on a car posted here.

[vintageracer]

I would say the G-Force 'cuda is up there but a little too much street rod meets SCCA for me to say it's the quintessential P-T car. A work of art but so much so that it's almost in a class outside (and above) Pro-Touring. Amazing automobile.


Remember the G Force Cuda was built 6-7 years ago.

The definition of the quintessential PT car in today's world has certainly changed from 6-8 years ago!

[vintageracer]

I don't know. The TV Show "Overhaulin" does all that in a week. :)

Thats true!

Overhaulin does it with 30-40+ people working on the car for a solid 8 days!

There are 168 hours in a 7 day week. If the workers each only put in 12 hour shifts building the car so instead of 168 hours in a full work week let's just say 84 hours to account for the 12 hours shifts the builders work and use the low number of 30 people. That gives us 84 work hours x 30 people = 2,520 hours worth of collective work! Remember there are LOT'S of people working on an Overhaulin car. Paint, body, interior, assembly, fabrication, exhaust, wheels and on and on.

I guess I was low I was low at my 500 hours to 1,500 hour estimate to build a PT car!