Head is spinning over suspension options.... 71 Firebird

[ChrisYear]

Hey guys new to the board and have a few questions regarding my car. I have a 71 Firebird Formula 400 that is going full frame off resto and its getting close to suspension time. Since everything is rotted out and rusted I need to replace everything (including the old air shocks lol). I had my sights on the Speedtech grand touring kit and planned on upgrading to a 12bolt rear end, but I've also seen BMR's setup with the Watt's link setup. I'd honestly like to stick around 5 or 6k for front and rear so Detroit's hydroformed front end and quadralink is probably out of the question. However I know since I'm going to be replacing brakes and steering as well maybe those "complete" subframes might be worth it? Does anyone have experience with either setup or possibly might recommend something else I may have missed? Thanks!

[Josh@Ridetech]

Depending on what you're looking to do, we have an all bolt on kit set up for your car. There are several different options but you can choose what fits your driving style the best, if you have any questions, feel free to ask!

http://www.ridetech.com/store/1970-1981-chevy-camaro-coilover-system-level-2.html

[ChrisYear]

Thanks for the link, I forgot to mention I looked at your system first but completely forgot about it. I noticed on your site it says the 4link is bolt on? Does the kit matter if its 10 or 12 bolt? The car won't see anything competitive but I would like it to hold up well in the corners on street tires.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Thanks for the link, I forgot to mention I looked at your system first but completely forgot about it. I noticed on your site it says the 4link is bolt on? Does the kit matter if its 10 or 12 bolt? The car won't see anything competitive but I would like it to hold up well in the corners on street tires.

No problem. The kit is designed to work with the stock leaf spring pads in the stock locations (could be welded on different rear end). If you're not wanting to use the stock leaf spring pads, we do have a weld on bracket that can be used instead. The only welding that has to be done is on the four axle tabs for the upper control arms. Competitive driving or street use will be a perfect fit for this kit, you can dial it in for a street or performance type feel with the Fox shocks.

[ChrisYear]

Awesome thank you for the information. I'll definitely take this kit into consideration as it seems a lot less complicated over a torque arm setup.

[Josh@Ridetech]

Awesome thank you for the information. I'll definitely take this kit into consideration as it seems a lot less complicated over a torque arm setup.

You're welcome, give me a call or shoot me an email if you come up with any questions.

[Decline]

If I'm not mistaken don't the second gen Fbodys have the 8.5 inch 10 bolt which is almost the same size/strength as the 12bolt? Either way put a helical diff in the rear.

Secondly 2nd gens don't suffer the same poor front geometry problems as the 1st gens so you can get away with keeping the stock front sub. But here are some reasons to get one anyway

Weight savings
Increased rigidity
More front tire (not sure on a 2nd gen but with 1st gens thats another reason to consider an after market frame)

I've been pricing it out and a good aftermarket front sub assem is at least $5500.(TCI,chassisworks,Speedtech) but come with steering rack and brakes(except speedtech), add those items into your front end over haul and it comes in pretty close in price
maybe 1000ish more..It comes down to if you think its worth the extra coin
Write down how much the parts are from each manufacture on a piece of paper too, it helps me keep track of all the numbers

[ChrisYear]

I've been told to basically trash the 10bolt with the power level I'm looking at so I'd be interested to know more. I'll start putting it all on paper and see where it goes... everything is going to have to be replace (suspension, steering, brakes) so I see what you mean.. might be cost effective to just do one of the larger kits.

Thanks for the help guys

[wendell]

Don't anybody take this the wrong way but...
Folks will line up to take your money. First thing I'd do is study Herb Adams' info on suspension development of the 2gen. You'll learn about the short comings and fixes specific to the 2nd gen. If you still want to buy the "pro-touring", you'll be a more educated consumer.

[ChrisYear]

Thanks for the input!

[bret]

Don't anybody take this the wrong way but...
Folks will line up to take your money. First thing I'd do is study Herb Adams' info on suspension development of the 2gen. You'll learn about the short comings and fixes specific to the 2nd gen. If you still want to buy the "pro-touring", you'll be a more educated consumer.

Agreed. The more informed you can be the better choices you can make. Some people gravitate toward the highest priced systems. Some look for the cheapest. There are merits to both positions. Research and education will allow you to choose wisely.

[ChrisYear]

I think more than anything I'd like to see more people chime in who own a 2nd gen and what system they have purchased and if they were overall happy with the fitment and performance. The more I look around today I think ive found 6 subframe manufacturers now. So the head hasnt stopped spinning haha.

[andrewb70]

I think more than anything I'd like to see more people chime in who own a 2nd gen and what system they have purchased and if they were overall happy with the fitment and performance. The more I look around today I think ive found 6 subframe manufacturers now. So the head hasnt stopped spinning haha.

So you want to gauge the systems by popularity? I think that you will find that whichever system people own they will generally say is the best. This is what's called confirmation bias. People are inclined to put themselves in the "XYZ" company tribe and they will defend it to the bitter end. This behavior is ingrained in humans because we have survived through millennia through tribal affiliation. In other words, good luck getting any sort of clarity by asking people which system they own...LOL

Andrew

[ChrisYear]

Sure they will be a little biased but it will give me the opportunity to know what's out there.. what people have installed... and possibly some pros or cons about their experience with that system. I'm not that gullible lol... I just want some real world opinions to help me get some ideas.

[thor70]

Chris-
First nice choice of platform to start from. I to have a 71 Formula and went through this same decision about 1.5 years ago. I went with the BMR torque arm and Ridetech shocks. For me it came down to BMR and Ridetech, but I have a thing for a watts link so BMR won out. For me it offers everything I wanted.
If you are anywhere close to central Iowa let me know and you can take the car for a drive and see what you think.
By the way here is a link to my car:
http://v8tvshow.com/content/blogcategory/111/346/

[ChrisYear]

Thanks exactly what I was looking for... I really do like that design over the pan hard? type system. I'm in Kansas city so a bit of drive but I do appreciate the offer! What did you do for the front end components and steering?

[thor70]

I have Global West upper and lower control arms with QA1 coil over shocks. For steering it is a 12.7:1 670 steering box.
For brakes I have Baer 13" 6 piston brakes. And for an engine and transmission I have a 474 using E85 with an estimated 600hp and a TKO 600. Rear end is a 10 bolt with 3.73 gears.

[ChrisYear]

Surprised that 10bolt is holding up! Thanks for the info!

[j-c-c]

So you want to gauge the systems by popularity? I think that you will find that whichever system people own they will generally say is the best. This is what's called confirmation bias. People are inclined to put themselves in the "XYZ" company tribe and they will defend it to the bitter end. This behavior is ingrained in humans because we have survived through millennia through tribal affiliation. In other words, good luck getting any sort of clarity by asking people which system they own...LOL

Andrew

Yes, this.

[a67]

Surprised that 10bolt is holding up! Thanks for the info!

The corporate 8.5" 10-bolt is a stout piece. The ring gear on a 12-bolt is only 3/8 of an inch larger in diameter (at 8.875"). With the 8.5" in my 1st gen, upgraded with an Eaton posi and 30-spline Superior axles, I don't worry about it breaking. IIRC, stock is a 28 spline axle. If both are being replaced, makes sense to up the spline count for greater strength.

Bob.

[srh3trinity]

If it makes your choice any easier, very few people's driving abilities will ever eclipse any of these suspension systems. That being said, there was a certain second gen that was on leafs and was giving up some power to her competition and still ruling the roost.

[BMR Sales]

Hey guys new to the board and have a few questions regarding my car. I have a 71 Firebird Formula 400 that is going full frame off resto and its getting close to suspension time. Since everything is rotted out and rusted I need to replace everything (including the old air shocks lol). I had my sights on the Speedtech grand touring kit and planned on upgrading to a 12bolt rear end, but I've also seen BMR's setup with the Watt's link setup. I'd honestly like to stick around 5 or 6k for front and rear so Detroit's hydroformed front end and quadralink is probably out of the question. However I know since I'm going to be replacing brakes and steering as well maybe those "complete" subframes might be worth it? Does anyone have experience with either setup or possibly might recommend something else I may have missed? Thanks!


Thanks for Considering our Torque Arm with the Watts-Link. You will be below your Budget for both the Front & Rear with our pieces. Give me a Call when you get a chance, I'm here 9:30am to 6:00 pm EST

T.C.

[wendell]

If you're just looking to buy a "pro-touring" then it's only fair that you get the ridetech because they posted first.

[ChrisYear]

Lol this is probably true

[Nothingface5384]

If I'm not mistaken don't the second gen Fbodys have the 8.5 inch 10 bolt which is almost the same size/strength as the 12bolt?
not sure if there were any 3in axle tubed c clip 8.5 10 bolts..so im going to say just your run of the mill 2 5/8 C-Clip rear.. but I can measure my uncles tmrw for axle tube size

now 71-72 Buick skylark/GS and 71-72 cutlass/442 would be the 12bolt like strength 10 bolt
due to 3in diameter axle tubes
same pinion support as 12 bolt
same pinion shaft diameter as 12bolt
BOLT IN Axles

can be rebuilt with 30 spline axles, 3/16in thick retaining plates and 1/2 in wheel studs

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Chris-

Nice ride to start with. When I was in high school a good friend had a 71 with the ram air hood like yours. I was always a bit jealous, his car looked way more aggressive than my Nova, lol!

First off, you're in luck, the Speedtech GT package is on sale this month for $3999, click here (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=367/category_id=-1/mode=prod/prd367.htm). When comparing everything you get it's also about $800 cheaper than similar packages if you're concerned about price. It converts your front factory subframe to true coilovers and it drops the leaf springs and rusty shocks since you want to start out fresh. It does really well on the race track and is comfortable to drive down the road. Don't wanna turn this into a huge sales pitch so I'll leave it at that.There are lots of systems out there to choose from and we appreciate you considering our package.

The best way to get you quality advice is to dig a little deeper into your thoughts.

You mentioned you were headed towards the Speedtech GT system, what may have changed your mind?

What are your reserves with a panhard system and why do you feel the watts link will work better?

I see a lot of "bolt in" mentioned, do you have reserves with a little bit of welding?

What are your plans outside of suspension? Drivetrain? How often will it see track time or is it mostly street driving? Wheels and tires? Etc.

What are the main things you're looking for while shopping for a suspension? "Because everyone else has it" doesn't count. ;)

[srh3trinity]

Hey Chris-

Nice ride to start with. When I was in high school a good friend had a 71 with the ram air hood like yours. I was always a bit jealous, his car looked way more aggressive than my Nova, lol!

First off, you're in luck, the Speedtech GT package is on sale this month for $3999, click here (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=367/category_id=-1/mode=prod/prd367.htm). When comparing everything you get it's also about $800 cheaper than similar packages if you're concerned about price. It converts your front factory subframe to true coilovers and it drops the leaf springs and rusty shocks since you want to start out fresh. It does really well on the race track and is comfortable to drive down the road. Don't wanna turn this into a huge sales pitch so I'll leave it at that.There are lots of systems out there to choose from and we appreciate you considering our package.

The best way to get you quality advice is to dig a little deeper into your thoughts.

You mentioned you were headed towards the Speedtech GT system, what may have changed your mind?

What are your reserves with a panhard system and why do you feel the watts link will work better?

I see a lot of "bolt in" mentioned, do you have reserves with a little bit of welding?

What are your plans outside of suspension? Drivetrain? How often will it see track time or is it mostly street driving? Wheels and tires? Etc.

What are the main things you're looking for while shopping for a suspension? "Because everyone else has it" doesn't count. ;)
This is a great setup. I may be mistaken, but I think Speedtech's prices have come down since I bought my stuff. I dont remember a deal like that when I was shopping.

[dutch55]

Josh,
How does the rear suspension anti-squat percentage of the RideTech rear suspension kit you mentioned compare with the stock leaf spring setup?

[Josh@Ridetech]

Josh,
How does the rear suspension anti-squat percentage of the RideTech rear suspension kit you mentioned compare with the stock leaf spring setup?

The suspension will squat a bit under power (coilovers or shockwaves) but not near as much as a leaf spring would. The setup makes the rear end alot more stable while still having a good amount of suspension travel to give you the good ride. Depending on what your goal is, the spring rates can be adjusted to better fit the driving styles.



Edit: I was thinking rear squat, let me check with engineering on the anti squat comparisons! We'll post up the answer as soon as we come up with it.

[Later-A-body]

I thought I would reply only in regard to the 10 bolt question, and because I owned three '70-'73 Formula's and love them. The 10 bolt as stated is plenty strong. I have an 8.5" 10 bolt in my 4000 pound 5-speed Grand Am. I had it rebuilt with Superior forged axles, Eaton posi and 3.73 gears. With the previous Pontiac 455 making 530 HP and 580 lbs./foot of torque, it holds up well. Unless your planning on dry hooking your car on slicks all the time, I don't see any reason to spend extra cash on a 12 bolt.

[ChrisYear]

Thanks everyone for the feedback.. especially the rear end info.

Ben the only reason I think I was going away from your kit was the 12bolt only application. I found out the car has a posi and supposedly aftermarket gears from the body shop so to keep cost down right now I'd like to stick with the 10bolt.

Later A body, that helps a lot. According the the engine builder we should be around 540hp to the crank with the new heads and roller cam (if we can find a grind!). Behind the the Neal Chance auto tranny and radials I'm thinking I'll be ok for awhile.

[Later-A-body]

Glad to help. In regards to the cam selection, I would definitely call SD Performance in BC Canada. 604-490-2211. They are in my opinion the best Pontiac engine builders. They have a line of cams that have been proven many times over to work extremely well. I would look at the "Old Faithful" grind. It works fantastic in a big stroke 455. Don't make the same mistake I made once with a cam ground on a 110 LSA. Pontiacs love a 112 LSA and the powerband is less brutal on the bottom, and spreads the power out better. They are also some of the best head porters in the Pontiac circle.

[ChrisYear]

Looks like I'll will give "Old Faithful" a shot when we get that far in the build! Thank you. Regarding the rear end I did the math and it just makes more sense to buy a new disc brake 12bolt from Moser to complete the setup rather than clean up the old stock 10 bolt.

[Later-A-body]

Two good choices. Cant go wrong either way. SD Performance also ports Pontiac cyllinder heads, and you can buy them already done.