Aftermarket Front Subframe worth it?

[Decline]

I have been researching suspension upgrade for my first gen Camaro and have been flipping and flopping on the idea.
Usually the argument for has been aftermarket subframes are stiffer, you can run larger front tires, and its a complete setup with rack and pinion steering.

With the advent of Tru-turn and hotchkis handle bars that naroows the gap, and only leaves rack and pinion as the advantage?

After I run the numbers a full front subframe from heidts is only around $1000-1500 more than a ridetech level 2 after the addition of brakes.

I just wonder if there are other advantages I'm missing such as under hood clearance or something.

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

Whether it's worth it is debatable until the car rusts into the ground. Whether it's worth it to you is the true question. Some of the advantages of an aftermarket front sub, or some front subs at least, is improved suspension geometry, lighter weight, and increased rigidity. Yes, they're more money than redoing the stock front end and you can make a stock sub work fairly well. But you're still stuck with geometry that is rooted firmly in the 1960s. This is why Chassisworks started with a completely clean sheet when designing our front clip.

It's easier, and a lot more fun, to drive a slow car fast than it is to drive a fast car slow. Channeling a slightly larger part of any given build budget away from the engine and towards suspension can reap huge rewards.

You can learn more about the Chassisworks suspension systems that are available for your Camaro by clicking the Camaro Buyers Guide cover below. Or, just give me a call and I'll be happy to answer any of your questions. Also, you can learn more about our design process by clicking HERE (http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/DataSheets/7701_DS_WEB.pdf).

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/03/BG_201_277x360-1.jpg (http://www.cachassisworks.com/Attachments/Catalogs/BG_201.pdf)

[bret]

I would invite you to attend a Goodguys event [or any other event where we are at] and take a ride in the 48 Hour Camaro as well as other cars with other suspensions. Seeing/feeling is beleiving.

[Decline]

Thanks for the responses.
I had not read/noticed before that the ChassisWorks parts where CAD engineered. I work in the design dept of a Major OEM so I appreciate/understand the importance precisely designed components and FEA analysis in making parts that work and fit correctly.
I will have to more closely read the brochure stating all benfits of your front subframe.

I will be attending the Del Mar nationals(sunday) in 3 weeks before I make any decisions. I am very interested in seeing this stuff in person and doing some ride alongs.
I may even attempt to autocross it in its current(mostly stock) form to see how bad it is and form a baseline, if I can get the oil to stop leaking, and install a radiator overflo

[silver69camaro]

Thanks for the responses.
I had not read/noticed before that the ChassisWorks parts where CAD engineered. I work in the design dept of a Major OEM so I appreciate/understand the importance precisely designed components and FEA analysis in making parts that work and fit correctly.


I think you'll find that the major manufacturers of subframes all CAD design their products. That kind of technology is too cheap not to use these days.

I also like a clean sheet design. Granted you are still limited by packaging, but other than that, you are free to do what you wish. Even then, I can keep lateral RC migration to less than 1.5" while still keeping good camber gain values.

While a rack and pinion is superior in stiffness, don't forget about weight. An aftermarket sub will drop lots of weight from the already heavy front end of a first gen. My own Camaro is 50.7% on the front, which is pretty darn good. The use of aluminum suspension components help as well, and also deliver a better ride quality.

I don't know how big of a tire you can fit under a stock subframe first gen, but one thing to think about is scrub radius. Stock subs have a fairly narrow track width, and fitting the car with 10" wide rims with a narrow track can produce some very high scrub numbers. Typically, with our subframe, scrub radius will be about .450" when using a 10" rim. If you look at modern high performance (and rear drive) designs, this is a common figure for a good reason. It provides just enough leverage for good feedback, but not high enough to cause instability issues or excessive steering system and bearing stress. If you go too much less, you risk having a oscillation between pos/neg (depending on your KPI angle), which is also a bad thing.

Like everybody has said before, it comes down cost. Aftermarket subs aren't for everybody, but they do have lots to offer.

[Decline]

Thanks Matt.. I had to go back to lateral G and re-read the Ron Sutton front suspension post to even kind of understand those tech details, but I like the fact that the engineers responsible for designing it know!

Your personal car with the IRS is my current ultimate "aspirational camaro" with, in my opinion, the most advance suspension available today. I have watched the video of the super chevy handling test a bunch of times.
I think the biggest compliment was that Mary Pozzi was so impressed with your car that she will be installing the AMS IRS on her own Camaro. That really says a lot when such an accomplished driver in a dialed car sees such an advantage that they have to have it for themselves. She summed it up best at the end when she said that this is the next level of suspension.
Excellent work sir.

My other "blue print" build is Rod Proutys 1sickT8. Decidedly at the other end of the spectrum being mostly bolt ons and garage built, but with great results.
Ultimate vs. Sufficient..
I continually re-evaluate my goals vs. cost equation, and the other X factor...patience!

[Carl @ Chassisworks]

I think you'll find that the major manufacturers of subframes all CAD design their products.

Definitely some key words in that sentence. :)


Thanks for the responses.
I had not read/noticed before that the ChassisWorks parts where CAD engineered. I work in the design dept of a Major OEM so I appreciate/understand the importance precisely designed components and FEA analysis in making parts that work and fit correctly.
I will have to more closely read the brochure stating all benfits of your front subframe.

Yep, we sure do! From day one Chris has made a huge investment in the technology side of our company; not just in manufacturing, but also the engineering side. All our suspension systems are designed using Pro-E. We also have our own FARO system. Back in the 90s we had the ball style but now we have the laser.

If you're into reading about tech, check out the product Data Sheets for the Chassisworks System Guides section of our site here: http://www.cachassisworks.com/cac_library.html

We're currently working on our next generation of Mustang components; here's a couple images of that process.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Decline]

After taking into consideration the above comments I am now heavily favoring going with a full front clip. In the end I feel the extra cost is justified for the benefits. After you throw in the additional items to a stock subframe build(handlebars,brakes,steering box) its almost a wash price wise with not as good geometry and no weight savings. There was a part of me that was concerned with originality(or the ability to easily reverse) but my car isn't a SS or Z28..If anything this only increases the value.

I have been looking at the TCI front/rear as they have a rear torque arm rear suspension, use ridetech coilovers, and are local(about an hour) if I ever need anything. Luckily they will be doing ride a longs at the Muscle car national this weekend so I can see it/feel it in action
The chassisworks stuff looks like a really nice piece of kit also, I like the engineering behind it, and they are semi-localish up in NorCal.
Both are similary priced.
AMS and DSE are still a tad out of my budget unfortunately(which I've already doubled my "max" twice now)

[bret]

You won't be disappointed with the TCI system. Sal and Evan are great to work with and build nice parts. Their Camaro is a great runner!

Now your decision is single adjustable or triple adjustable shocks...
Unless you are going to truly chase the Autocross/road course/track day scene, I'd stick with the single adjustable units. Triples are great tools but you can get lost with the tuning unless you are diligent with the note taking.

James Crosby should be there as well this weekend with our black Camaro. He can give you the show/tell on everything.

Have fun this weekend!

[srh3trinity]

For me, the cost difference was less than 1000 to go with a full aftermarket setup but mine use c6 Corvette control arms and uprights that I bought used. I wanted a rack and pinion and already had vette brakes. Of course I have some awesome Ridetech coilovers for it too.