1972 Monte Carlo Front Suspension

[Mully]

First of all I am a new guy to the Pro-Touring forum and a bit confused by all the modern front suspension options for the A-Body cars. I have done a fair amour of reading and searching but I think it is time to ask a few questions.

The car is a 1972 Monte Carlo with an original front end…I mean factory original front suspension..springs, ball joints, tie rod ends, shocks…everything is as it left GM. No joke! Might have 75K total miles on the car since new. I have had the car since 1973 or 1974 and it has been in the garage much more than it has been on the road. That said the bushings and what not are pretty dried out / tired out. To say the least it is time for a rebuild since it has been 40+ years since those factory parts went in there.

If I am going to redo the front suspension it seems to make sense to redo with better geometry parts that are available these days. I want to get better handling / breaking but I don't need to be able to totally defy gravity and the laws of physics with an all out cornering / breaking setup. This is more a budged upgrade that has been kicked off by the need to look at the front end parts that have been in there since 1972. I most likely will retain the original Rally wheels given that the goal is a more or less stock look with subtile internal improvements. I don't need to slam the car down onto the ground..stock ride height could work, I won't put really wide sticky tires on it. It is all about subtile improvements within a budget.

So with that said what are your thoughts…new upper and lower A-arms? New stock heigh spindles? Both spindles and A-arms? Coil overs? Y/N/ ? The issue is that I don't know enough to make decisions on the scope of replacement and make the call about what vendor parts will do what I want AND will play together in a simple bolt in during a weekend of work. I have outlined what I want to do with the car up above. I would appreciate any thoughts you might have or any questions that you have for me to answer so that you guys can help me out.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over.

[raustinss]

Call Marcus at sc&c...Google them....he is a wizard with gm a bodies. He can suggest what will work best for your intended use and budget..also sells product too...good luck
Ryan Austin

[UMI Performance]

Hello Mully, Welcome to the site! You will find a lot of good information here and a lot of people will to help!

Mark over at SC&C is excellent to deal with. I would also encourage you to call our engineer here at UMI and pick his brain, he is happy to help over the phone with out trying to sell you products. Ramey at 814-343-6315.

I will supply a little information here, please feel free to ask any questions. We can change the vehicles geometry by using factory spindles and installing taller ball joints into the a-arms. A taller ball joint in an a-arm will simulate a taller spindle. So by doing this you save money by not purchasing a new spindle since you can use your factory spindle. The a-arms also have positive caster built into them for increase steering response and a tighter steering feel. For springs you can go with a standard coil spring or a coil over kit, based on what you say above I think a coil over kit would be overkill for the car. In most cases a 1" lowering spring won't lower the car the full 1", this is assuming your factory springs are sagging after 42 years of service. But new springs like ours have increased spring rate for firm ride yet comfortable, they are ideal for cruise and autox. For shocks, we sell and recommend Bilstein or Ridetech, the Ridetech is little more expensive but they also have some adjustment built in for rebound.

I posted a few links below, please take a look and see what you think. These links can also help you learn a little about what you want to do with the car.

A-Arms- http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_251_272&products_id=621

Springs- http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_349&products_id=748

I hope this information helps. Please ask and we will be glad to assist you!

Ryan

[BMR Sales]

Mully, I know you said you've had the car for quite a while, but what are your plans with the car? This can change what advise that I can give you.

Feel Free to give me a call.

And Welcome to P-T!

T.C.

[raustinss]

Although I don't have any of the products sold by UMI or BMR, my. 02$ is they're both quite reputable and offer excellent quality products. I can say I've never heard one bad word about either company from products thru to customer service. Good luck with your project
Ryan Austin

[Mully]

Although I don't have any of the products sold by UMI or BMR, my. 02$ is they're both quite reputable and offer excellent quality products. I can say I've never heard one bad word about either company from products thru to customer service. Good luck with your project
Ryan Austin

Thanks for the info, I really hate doing things like this over because of shoddy parts. A suppliers' reputation is very important to me.

For UMI and BMR I had plans to make some calls this week but had a couple of those "life ( in one case death actually) gets in the way" events this last few days.

A general question for anyone who wants to take a shot. Any answers will feed my "suspension rookie" thought processes while I sort all this personal stuff out. I am going to need front springs and shocks…control arms are in the "do it while it is apart and get better handling as a bonus" category. I can change calipers and sway bars and other things later…my strategy is get the front ctrl arms / bushings shocks springs and spindles (if needed) done first then bolt other parts on later. I like the idea of the adjustability of coil overs (remember I need shocks and springs already). Are there frame mod..welding etc needed to go to coil overs?

[raustinss]

Global west makes a extended travel coilovers kit for the front of all GM A bodies . I'd like to assume that your going to lower the car. Whenever you lower a GM A body the front end geometry goes for a shi* which is why alot of companies produce aftermarket control arms this should be your first move if you can afford it go to a ats AFX spindle. It uses a corvette hub so any modern brakes can bolt on. For the rear same sort of issue when you lower the rear it changes the instant center leading to wheel hop and further geometry problems. Some guys use anti hop bars. Others use adjustable control arms. I'm not a expert by any means and this conversation could continue for quite some time, talk to the pros they all should be able to steer you in the right direction with what's best for a starting point and also budget
Good luck
Ryan Austin

[Mully]

Global west makes a extended travel coilovers kit for the front of all GM A bodies . I'd like to assume that your going to lower the car. Whenever you lower a GM A body the front end geometry goes for a shi* which is why alot of companies produce aftermarket control arms this should be your first move if you can afford it go to a ats AFX spindle. It uses a corvette hub so any modern brakes can bolt on. For the rear same sort of issue when you lower the rear it changes the instant center leading to wheel hop and further geometry problems. Some guys use anti hop bars. Others use adjustable control arms. I'm not a expert by any means and this conversation could continue for quite some time, talk to the pros they all should be able to steer you in the right direction with what's best for a starting point and also budget
Good luck
Ryan Austin

Ryan

On the matter of lowering the car….no I don't want to drop it down. Those Gen I MC cars are a bit lower in front already (due to the long heavy hood and in my case a BBC with A/C). I hope to maintain as much of a stock visual look as possible with the improvements under the skin. Same issue with the rear…I want to leave the ride height as close as possible to original. I like the adj. coil overs because I think I might be able to make minor height adjustments with front coil overs. The thought of swapping springs into and out of the front trying to get the ride height I want is not where I want to be. "One and done" as folks say. If coil overs necessitate welding well that is something else again. I need springs and shocks and given the fact that I want new front ctrl arms for the improved geometry.I might consider taller spindles for this effort but I don't want dropped spindles. Those take me back to a lowered front end!

Ray

[BMR Sales]

Thanks for the info, I really hate doing things like this over because of shoddy parts. A suppliers' reputation is very important to me.

For UMI and BMR I had plans to make some calls this week but had a couple of those "life ( in one case death actually) gets in the way" events this last few days.

A general question for anyone who wants to take a shot. Any answers will feed my "suspension rookie" thought processes while I sort all this personal stuff out. I am going to need front springs and shocks…control arms are in the "do it while it is apart and get better handling as a bonus" category. I can change calipers and sway bars and other things later…my strategy is get the front ctrl arms / bushings shocks springs and spindles (if needed) done first then bolt other parts on later. I like the idea of the adjustability of coil overs (remember I need shocks and springs already). Are there frame mod..welding etc needed to go to coil overs?

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

89308

[Mully]

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

89308

Thanks for the kind words…something very vey unexpected. Hits you hard.

Stuck here in the house in Atlanta in this DISASTER with the roads right now. Doing my research…then going to try to retrieve my car later today…it is not too far from home fortunately!

Interesting picture, might be something I would consider. I think you are talking about 2 separate things…the Viking Kit and something new from BMR. Is that right?

We do need to talk one on one but for now can you elaborate on the differences between the Viking and the new yet to be completed BMR kit. My major issue is securing the upper end of the Coil Over. I am hoping I can accomplish this as a bolt in but of course the "Dependability" / "Reliability" of that bolt in install is very important to me.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Mully-

First off we agree with T.C., sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you and your family can find some comfort in trying times.

This post is a bit lengthy, just trying to cover all your questions...

Personally I like the cars that are a little less mainstream. I remember first noticing a first gen Monte when I was young. I always thought it had great body lines and although it's meant to be a little more on the luxury side it looked plenty like a tough muscle car. I also thought those huge fan shrouds looked totally cool, call me weird I guess. Seeing one with a 454 and 12 bolt was even cooler.

I commend you for your self control. In a world where we often think we need to throw a catalog at our cars to keep up with the Jones' it's nice to chat with someone who is looking to make some minor improvements for a little nicer ride as you take the muscle car out for some nice cruising. Hats off to ya. :)

Going to an inexpensive drop spindle isn't what you want. If you're going to invest in spindles, (Thanks for the plug Ryan) our tall ATS AFX spindle can't be beat. However, in your case and based on what you've said, they might be overkill. If you're simply after some mild upgrades while you're in there, changing spindles at all really isn't necessary. They're not a wearing part and they're sufficient enough for a cruiser.

I feel where you're coming from with the springs. When I first started building my coil spring based car I was new to the whole pro touring thing and have gone through the laborious and costly trial of trying to get things dialed in. I've had the springs out now to change things up 5 times and it still isn't exactly what I want. Coilovers are on deck, I'm sick of messing around with it. As has been said a simple spring swap might be a cheap and easy way to do it. But for a better than stock spring, for the most part they'll be a "lowered" spring, and you really roll the dice as to how much the car will drop. Trust me it isn't fun to expect one thing, go through the trouble of swapping parts, and get something else.

With that said, being a big block MC with A/C your car likely came with the 487 lb spring rate heavy duty front springs. If you were to jump up to a 550lb spring on a coilover that would stiffen it up just a bit in the corners but still give a decent ride. From that base point you could use the adjustability of the shock to dial in how soft or stiff you like your ride. For a little extra oomph if you do decide to hit an occasional auto cross, you can simply dial the shock for a little firmer ride to gain a little more corner control. You'd be really surprised how shock dampening will affect handling.

Control arms are an easy way to get headed in the right direction for correcting some factory poor geometry issues. Combine a good arm with built in geometry corrections and a decent performance alignment and you'll find a noticeable improvement in cornering responsiveness without killing how the car rides.

Since you want to keep it at stock ride height and maintain the 15" rally muscle car look, I'm assuming you're not really much interested in a corner carver. With that in mind you may or may not want to keep the factory sway bar(s). Some advantages of swapping sway bars is eliminating some body roll without changing the general ride of the car, and you're already in there so it's just a few extra bolts to swap them out. Chances are you'll enjoy the improvement they make.

So now what? There are so many options and companies to go with it can sometimes be overwhelming. We've considered this very thing and try to base our products on simple packages, based on the budget, needs and wants of the customer, and levels of expected increased performance.

First off I suggest you have a look at our (click the name for a link) Road assault package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=130/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd130.htm). It includes larger diameter tubular upper and lower control arms with Delrin bushings, stainless cross shafts, and heavy duty ball joints. They're super strong, decrease unsprung weight, and change your caster for better handling. They're also easy for the alignment shop and align in the same way a factory arm does. Also included in the kit is a double adjustable hybrid coilover shock. They are just as easy to install as changing a factory shock but has all the advantages of a coilover- adjusting ride height, shock rebound and compression are all fairly simple. Our kit includes an adjusting wrench and thrust bearings so you don't have to buy them separately. The nicest thing is you get to set everything to your personal tastes, not a generic "hope its right for you" setting. It also includes a larger tubular sway bar that will help with the body roll, and new billet adjusting sleeves for less flex and easier alignment adjustment. With this kit you're pretty much done, you simply add the tie rod ends of your choice. If you are ok with your factory sway bar, check out our Pro Touring package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=131/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd131.htm), it's the same kit minus the sway bar.

For the rear, are you happy with it as is? If you want to upgrade we have a rear suspension kit (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=132/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd132.htm)that includes stronger Articulink trailing arms that help eliminate the suspension bind associated with 4 link rear suspensions, and if you want to get into it you can adjust them for optimum pinion angle. Our kit's sway bar is matched to our front bar and is easily adjustable to get the right front to rear balance on your specific car. It also uses the much more effective frame mount system rather than the less effective factory trailing arm mount configuration. Finally the kit includes a matched set of double adjustable coilover shocks and a bolt-in coilover conversion bracket kit.

The advantages to all the above is it's exactly what you're looking for, doesn't require any mods outside of what you were already anticipating doing, allows ride height and comfort adjustability, yields better handling, eliminates guessing with coil springs and saves $ by maintaining some factory parts you were thinking of replacing. Another real advantage is if later down the road you want to get crazy on the autocross, throwing on some tall spindles, maybe changing the spring rate on the shocks, and using taller wheels/ lower profile tires will just about get you there.

Hope this helps. Feel free to contact us with any further questions at 435.628.4300. We're here to help you get what you want and will give you a good time behind the wheel.

[Mully]

Hey Mully-

First off we agree with T.C., sorry to hear about your loss. Hope you and your family can find some comfort in trying times.

This post is a bit lengthy, just trying to cover all your questions...

Personally I like the cars that are a little less mainstream. I remember first noticing a first gen Monte when I was young. I always thought it had great body lines and although it's meant to be a little more on the luxury side it looked plenty like a tough muscle car. I also thought those huge fan shrouds looked totally cool, call me weird I guess. Seeing one with a 454 and 12 bolt was even cooler.

I commend you for your self control. In a world where we often think we need to throw a catalog at our cars to keep up with the Jones' it's nice to chat with someone who is looking to make some minor improvements for a little nicer ride as you take the muscle car out for some nice cruising. Hats off to ya. :)

Going to an inexpensive drop spindle isn't what you want. If you're going to invest in spindles, (Thanks for the plug Ryan) our tall ATS AFX spindle can't be beat. However, in your case and based on what you've said, they might be overkill. If you're simply after some mild upgrades while you're in there, changing spindles at all really isn't necessary. They're not a wearing part and they're sufficient enough for a cruiser.

I feel where you're coming from with the springs. When I first started building my coil spring based car I was new to the whole pro touring thing and have gone through the laborious and costly trial of trying to get things dialed in. I've had the springs out now to change things up 5 times and it still isn't exactly what I want. Coilovers are on deck, I'm sick of messing around with it. As has been said a simple spring swap might be a cheap and easy way to do it. But for a better than stock spring, for the most part they'll be a "lowered" spring, and you really roll the dice as to how much the car will drop. Trust me it isn't fun to expect one thing, go through the trouble of swapping parts, and get something else.

With that said, being a big block MC with A/C your car likely came with the 487 lb spring rate heavy duty front springs. If you were to jump up to a 550lb spring on a coilover that would stiffen it up just a bit in the corners but still give a decent ride. From that base point you could use the adjustability of the shock to dial in how soft or stiff you like your ride. For a little extra oomph if you do decide to hit an occasional auto cross, you can simply dial the shock for a little firmer ride to gain a little more corner control. You'd be really surprised how shock dampening will affect handling.

Control arms are an easy way to get headed in the right direction for correcting some factory poor geometry issues. Combine a good arm with built in geometry corrections and a decent performance alignment and you'll find a noticeable improvement in cornering responsiveness without killing how the car rides.

Since you want to keep it at stock ride height and maintain the 15" rally muscle car look, I'm assuming you're not really much interested in a corner carver. With that in mind you may or may not want to keep the factory sway bar(s). Some advantages of swapping sway bars is eliminating some body roll without changing the general ride of the car, and you're already in there so it's just a few extra bolts to swap them out. Chances are you'll enjoy the improvement they make.

So now what? There are so many options and companies to go with it can sometimes be overwhelming. We've considered this very thing and try to base our products on simple packages, based on the budget, needs and wants of the customer, and levels of expected increased performance.

First off I suggest you have a look at our (click the name for a link) Road assault package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=130/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd130.htm). It includes larger diameter tubular upper and lower control arms with Delrin bushings, stainless cross shafts, and heavy duty ball joints. They're super strong, decrease unsprung weight, and change your caster for better handling. They're also easy for the alignment shop and align in the same way a factory arm does. Also included in the kit is a double adjustable hybrid coilover shock. They are just as easy to install as changing a factory shock but has all the advantages of a coilover- adjusting ride height, shock rebound and compression are all fairly simple. Our kit includes an adjusting wrench and thrust bearings so you don't have to buy them separately. The nicest thing is you get to set everything to your personal tastes, not a generic "hope its right for you" setting. It also includes a larger tubular sway bar that will help with the body roll, and new billet adjusting sleeves for less flex and easier alignment adjustment. With this kit you're pretty much done, you simply add the tie rod ends of your choice. If you are ok with your factory sway bar, check out our Pro Touring package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=131/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd131.htm), it's the same kit minus the sway bar.

For the rear, are you happy with it as is? If you want to upgrade we have a rear suspension kit (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=132/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd132.htm)that includes stronger Articulink trailing arms that help eliminate the suspension bind associated with 4 link rear suspensions, and if you want to get into it you can adjust them for optimum pinion angle. Our kit's sway bar is matched to our front bar and is easily adjustable to get the right front to rear balance on your specific car. It also uses the much more effective frame mount system rather than the less effective factory trailing arm mount configuration. Finally the kit includes a matched set of double adjustable coilover shocks and a bolt-in coilover conversion bracket kit.

The advantages to all the above is it's exactly what you're looking for, doesn't require any mods outside of what you were already anticipating doing, allows ride height and comfort adjustability, yields better handling, eliminates guessing with coil springs and saves $ by maintaining some factory parts you were thinking of replacing. Another real advantage is if later down the road you want to get crazy on the autocross, throwing on some tall spindles, maybe changing the spring rate on the shocks, and using taller wheels/ lower profile tires will just about get you there.

Hope this helps. Feel free to contact us with any further questions at 435.628.4300. We're here to help you get what you want and will give you a good time behind the wheel.


Lot of reading there!!!! For now the front suspension is my area of interest. The rear is Phase II You responded on a prior "New to the Board" thread of mine but in case you don't connect this thread and the "New Guy" thread…here are pics of the car as it sits now.

LS6 454 Crate Motor (Gen IV)
67 Vette 3x2
5 Speed
3.31 12 Bolt

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Yeah OK, how could I forget the 6 pack. That really is a wicked cool setup!

[raustinss]

Hey Ben do I get a set of spindles for giving my vote to use them....because I need a set....and would love love them lol
Ryan Austin

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Sure Ryan, you can have a set, as long you pay for them first. :razz: lol!

[Mully]

Mully, Sorry to hear about the Death of a Family Member or Friend - Deal with that and we can handle your car later.

As far as the Coil-Overs, we will have our Coil-Over Conversion Kit done very soon. This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over. We also have Viking and QA1 Pro-Coil Kits available. These kits attach at the bottom with a T-Bar and use a Stud attachment at the Top like a Normal Shock - the Spring uses an Threaded adjustable collar at the bottom and sits in the Frame Spring seat at the Top.

T.C.

Pic of the Coil-Over Conversion Kit w/ a Rod Eye Bearing on the top

89308



From the message above "This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over."

Ahhh???? A true coil over versus a "false" coil over? They say the only dumb question is the unasked question so I must ask. What is the difference between a true coil over and another style coil over? Are we talking about the mounting method at the top side of the coil over as pictured immediately above? Can you give me any info on your new product for coil over conversions? Perhaps pics of the mounting points / mounting hardware?

[Mully]

For Ben at Speedtech


Not sure the 3x2 is the fastest setup / most efficient setup a 4 BBL might be just as good however there is no denying the eye candy factor of the carbs. FWIW those carbs were done by a Corvette carb refirb. specialist in St. Louis. Before he got 'em they looked like they had been laying in THE DIRT at a JUNKYARD for YEARS. Out of the box..onto the engine and the car just started right up. Even the idle was almost dead on right out of the box because he runs the carbs on a mule engine before he ships them back. The center carb is essentially the same as the front of a Holley 4 BBL and outboard carbs come in as smooth as silk. Not EFI for sure but I like em.

[csouth]

From the message above "This will allow you to run a True Coil-Over."

Ahhh???? A true coil over versus a "false" coil over? They say the only dumb question is the unasked question so I must ask. What is the difference between a true coil over and another style coil over? Are we talking about the mounting method at the top side of the coil over as pictured immediately above? Can you give me any info on your new product for coil over conversions? Perhaps pics of the mounting points / mounting hardware?

What BMR is trying to state is a true coilover vs a hybrid coilover. A true coilover mounts as you stated like the one in the picture. With a hybrid front coilover for and A body the upper spring sits in the perch of the frame just like a conventional shock/spring setup.

[Mully]

What BMR is trying to state is a true coilover vs a hybrid coilover. A true coilover mounts as you stated like the one in the picture. With a hybrid front coilover for and A body the upper spring sits in the perch of the frame just like a conventional shock/spring setup.

OK that is what I thought. Now the question…how does one attach the top of a true coil over to the A-Body as in the picture. Are there bracket(s) that weld onto the A-body frame? Is surgery required to what would be the upper spring seat area for the true coil over to fit the A-Body frame?

Last point I guess. Hybrid coil over versus true coil over…..plus and minus of each would be what?

[csouth]

OK that is what I thought. Now the question…how does one attach the top of a true coil over to the A-Body as in the picture. Are there bracket(s) that weld onto the A-body frame? Is surgery required to what would be the upper spring seat area for the true coil over to fit the A-Body frame?

Last point I guess. Hybrid coil over versus true coil over…..plus and minus of each would be what?

I know that these are currently available. I believe UMI is working on one and it appears BMR has one in the works too.
Speedtech sells the Chicane kit

http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=272/category_id=76/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd272.htm

Global West sells an extended travel kit

http://www.globalwest.net/cof-42-chevellefrontcoilover.html

The hybrid coilover setup can place sideload on the coilover and can also have coil bind because the spring is short.

You might want to invest in this book

http://scandc.com/new/node/4

Marc is here on the forum from time to time and is also available by phone for suspension advice. Be prepared to listen and learn as he knows more than you would ever need to know about suspension tuning.

[marolf101x]

If you desire a true coil over set up that does not require cutting and fabrication of the stock frame we have the solution:
http://www.ridetech.com/store/musclecars/?subcats=Y&features_hash=V282

We interface the coil over at the OE upper shock mount. We use our lower control arm to not only put the coil over in a double shear mount, but also drop the shock a bit so the stroke is correct.
Remember, the front suspension will move roughly 5" at the wheel. With a 2:1 motion ratio the shock only moves half that, or 2.5". So you can put a 2.5" stroke shock or a 10" stroke shock in there and it will still only move the wheel 5".

[Mully]

If you desire a true coil over set up that does not require cutting and fabrication of the stock frame we have the solution:
http://www.ridetech.com/store/musclecars/?subcats=Y&features_hash=V282

We interface the coil over at the OE upper shock mount. We use our lower control arm to not only put the coil over in a double shear mount, but also drop the shock a bit so the stroke is correct.
Remember, the front suspension will move roughly 5" at the wheel. With a 2:1 motion ratio the shock only moves half that, or 2.5". So you can put a 2.5" stroke shock or a 10" stroke shock in there and it will still only move the wheel 5".

I am starting to feel like I am in mech. design class back in engineering school !!! That was a LONG time ago…a LONG LONG time ago. There certainly is no shortage of options for redoing these suspensions. Ok! More reading is on my list for today.

I almost hate to ask another question, I think I have a good deal of the basic coil over installation option data rounded up now. I guess I know enough to be dangerous as they say!!! Since I seem to be lucky enough to have an audience composed of some the top suppliers in this area here goes. As already stated this is not going to be a hard core competition Autocross car, I just need some rebuilding and figure whey not make some improvements while I am at it. IF I said I want to use original spindles (as opposed to drop spindles) then I am looking at tall ball joints in whatever arms I go for Y/N? Without the taller ball joints or a taller spindle the geometry improvements that the arms deliver are minimized / negated. So what are the opinions of the experts on taller ball joints? Remember this is not going to be a car that will be driven to the ragged edge of the handling envelope. Are there issues with taller joints I need to be aware of or are they a good, relatively painless solution to save some money on new spindles?

Thanks to everyone!!!!

[UMI Tech]

We've been using tall ball joints successfully for a few years now. In almost every case we add spindle height to an A-body whether it be with tall ball joints or a dedicated spindle. On some drag cars we don't bother...

Adding 1/2" ball joints height helps a bit, adding 1/2" lower and 1/2" upper helps even more. Our current tallest solution is 1.4" (0.5" lower, 0.9" upper). The 1.4" additional helps the system gain around 0.9 deg/inch which seems to work well.

These are relatively painless but do tend to require shortened upper a-arms to achieve the proper alignment without stacking a ton of shims in there. We designed our 4056-3 for that situation.

http://umiperformance.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1_250_267&products_id=761

Thanks for looking.

ramey

[SSLance]

Hey Mully,

We used tall lower ball joints on my car with the stock spindles. Ron Sutton helped me pick out the parts based on the suspension mapping I had done, the parts I already had on hand, and the most economical way to get to where we wanted to be geometry wise. From what I understand, there is no set menu of parts that works for every setup...you can tailor each build to fit all of the particular needs.

That said, having used the howe tall ball joints on two separate sets of lower control arms now, I'm a believer in them. The quality is good, and they perform as expected. No issues with them in that regard at all. Whether they fit with your particular geometry needs is up to you (and those helping you design your upgrades) but I would not be afraid to use them for any reason.

In designing what you want to end up with, these are all considerations to think about in no particular order:

Final static ride height
Full suspension travel up and down from that ride height
Spring rate to hold the car at that height plus allow full travel up and down
Shock valving to control how fast the suspension travels over different terrain
Geometry settings to establish the static caster and camber at that final ride height and the caster \ camber gain under suspension compression

There may be several different ways to skin those cats, and to each their own...but the basics remain the same for all. You can't slam a car to the ground and expect to get the suspension performance that you will get with a similar car that has substantially more suspension travel. Tall lower ball joints and stock height spindles allow some ride height drop without compromising full suspension travel or camber gain. The upper control arm configuration and ball joints seem to have a larger effect on total camber gain under compression and static caster settings.

Not unlike my car, the factory geometry on your car is horrible for cornering. Anything you do to correct that geometry will help, each thing you do to correct it and make it better will add onto the rest of the changes...it is up to you if you do it all at once or piece mail your way into it. I've piece mailed my way into my upgrades and it just keeps getting better and better all of the time. The very first change I made for the positive when I replaced my factory upper control arms, swapped in 2" drop springs, and switched the stock spindles back in for the drop spindles made a huge improvement in the cornering traction. Then when Ron started helping me and we went with more of a high travel \ low roll 'tweener setup, it got that much and more better again by adding suspension travel and setting the geometry for maximum camber gain with that extra travel. This last time around I've changed up the spring\shock setup by adding the Ridetech Triple Adjustable TQ coilovers and once again made a huge step in performance gains. It is ultimately up to you how many changes you want to make and how or when you make them, just use all of the help you have available to you in making those decisions and getrdone... You will love them once finished, I guarantee it.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Hey Chris, thanks for the plug and the link.

Mully-

On the 6 pack. Isn't it interesting, in a lot of cases a single carb will outperform dual carbs or a 6 pack. But, don't think a single carb will ever earn as many points for the bling bling factor. :)

The advantages of a coilover- The housing is threaded so that you can easily adjust ride height, you get approximately 2 1/2" of adjustment range. In your case where you want to maintain factory height, if later you want to drop it .5" or 1" or... the ability is already built in. Should you decide to race a little later on you can also swap out springs for a higher spring rate or different dynamic super easy, or have different springs for different tracks/ driving conditions. On the Viking shock, which is a little newer company but their products are proving themselves and becoming more and more popular, you get a double adjustable set up. This means that you can control compression- (as the tires go over a bump or the car leans into a corner) and rebound (the return of the shock to static position) individually by simply turning a knob. I have adjustable shocks on my car and it's incredible what they can do for ride and handling. I can crank them down and get a Caddy like ride to the track, then turn them up for better handling. As I make track runs I can go back to the pits and fine tune by making small adjustments to control things like body roll and under/over steer. They're worth the cost for a dual purpose car. Coilovers are also valved with performance in mind. Heavy duty parts are used throughout, they're machined to high tolerances and it is anticipated that they'll take some abuse. Many are rebuildable should you ever need that done.

A hybrid like Chris said, is what I was leaning towards in my looong post above. It's a new way to have your cake and eat it too, so to speak. You get all the benefits of the coilover shock because it's essentially the same shock body. The main difference is that while it mounts like a coilover on the bottom and has a small spring diameter with the lower adjusting nuts, it has a conical spring that gets wider at the top that fits up in the factory spring pocket like a normal coil spring. The top of the shock body mounts in the normal shock position, so once the factory coil spring is out of the way, installing or removing them is no different than replacing a regular shock. Here's a pic-

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/01/RoadAssaultfront_zps4e4055e2-1.jpg

Now about the negative. Some folks are a bit concerned about the design of the hybrid. May I suggest in a world of performance parts I think it's safe to say that most companies out there are building parts that are designed to hold up in the conditions these shocks are intended for, remember they are made in America and not some obscure factory overseas where quality control is a mystery phrase. We have sold hundreds of sets of this particular design and have had not one complaint or return. In your case where you're planning on replacing springs and shocks and aren't going to flog a 4200 lb car on the autocross every weekend it's a no brainer to do a conversion like this. Now, if you were to decide to get hardcore with your driving habits, or if what others have said worries you, then Chris mentioned another alternative- the Chicane true coilover conversion. Our kit does require removing the original shock mount and welding in the bracket in the photo below. Once that's done you install a "true" coilover which means it has a non tapered spring and mounts to a shaft rather than in the stock position like the hybrid. This set up requires a little work so some folks that don't have the skills or tools to do it but still want to do their own work lean towards the hybrid. One thing we recommend for sure with the hybrid, we strongly suggest not installing them on factory stamped lower control arms, as that's a lot of pressure focused on the lower mount and a decent aftermarket lower arm will better handle the load.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/01/NewChicaneCombo_zpsba89ab5c-1.jpg

As Lance said there is more than one way to skin a cat. The hard thing is picking out which knife to use. Here on this forum it's easy to get carried away buying what everyone says is the best, or it's easy to get bit by the bug and meaningfully get carried away to hit the track and tear up some corners. The bottom line is deciding what is best for you. I can't speak for you, but from what you said earlier and based on how the car is and will stay set up, I think a lot of parts some of us may have installed on our cars and/ or might recommend could be overkill for you. From our end of the woods the Pro Touring or Road Assault kit we sell sounds like a great upgrade for your needs, isn't getting you into crazy costs for top end super duper track parts, and is easy to install. We'd love to help you out if we can. Either way, you're doing the right thing by asking and I hope all the good responses here are helping you become more familiar with what works and how parts affect your car's driving characteristics. If you haven't already got it, I recommend Mark's book "How to Make a Muscle Car Handle" to start with to learn the basics of handling and suspension dynamics. That might help you make a more educated decision on what fills your car's needs.

[BMR Sales]

Thanks for the kind words…something very vey unexpected. Hits you hard.

Stuck here in the house in Atlanta in this DISASTER with the roads right now. Doing my research…then going to try to retrieve my car later today…it is not too far from home fortunately!

Interesting picture, might be something I would consider. I think you are talking about 2 separate things…the Viking Kit and something new from BMR. Is that right?

We do need to talk one on one but for now can you elaborate on the differences between the Viking and the new yet to be completed BMR kit. My major issue is securing the upper end of the Coil Over. I am hoping I can accomplish this as a bolt in but of course the "Dependability" / "Reliability" of that bolt in install is very important to me.

Hey Mully, some of the others have answered the Question, but - we offer Viking & QA1. Both offer a Hybrid Coil-Over that have a Stud Top Mount for the Shock and the Spring sits in the Upper Factory Seat. The Picture I showed is our New Coil-Over Conversion Kit that will be available soon that utilizes a True Viking Coil-Over.

What part of Atlanta do you live in? My Best Friend used to live in Decatur and my Son grew up in Peachtree City and is now at Georgia Southern in Statesboro. So I used to go up to Atlanta fairly often and know the Area pretty well.

T.C.

[Mully]

Hey Mully, some of the others have answered the Question, but - we offer Viking & QA1. Both offer a Hybrid Coil-Over that have a Stud Top Mount for the Shock and the Spring sits in the Upper Factory Seat. The Picture I showed is our New Coil-Over Conversion Kit that will be available soon that utilizes a True Viking Coil-Over.

What part of Atlanta do you live in? My Best Friend used to live in Decatur and my Son grew up in Peachtree City and is now at Georgia Southern in Statesboro. So I used to go up to Atlanta fairly often and know the Area pretty well.

T.C.

Roswell, you know Roswell: where all the Aliens are? Only difference is that we have Aliens building houses here in Roswell GA. as opposed to Aliens flying and crashing spaceships in Roswell NM. We put on quite a show this week with 1 or 2 inches of snow…did ya catch it on TV? As a former New Englander who can drive in bad weather this recent performance was embarrassing!!!!!!

I am learning a lot on this. Looks like you new kit also requires some surgery and welding as I would expect…correct?

[BMR Sales]

Roswell, you know Roswell: where all the Aliens are? Only difference is that we have Aliens building houses here in Roswell GA. as opposed to Aliens flying and crashing spaceships in Roswell NM. We put on quite a show this week with 1 or 2 inches of snow…did ya catch it on TV? As a former New Englander who can drive in bad weather this recent performance was embarrassing!!!!!!

I am learning a lot on this. Looks like you new kit also requires some surgery and welding as I would expect…correct?

LOL - I've been in Atlanta when it Snowed before - the place shut down, people sleeping in Bars etc

Yes, the Coil-Over Conversion Kits requires Minor Surgery!

T.C.