2014 American Street Car Series Roadcourse Rules

[Bill Howell]

Preface:We at ASCS, in an attempt to bring all our events and segments of those event in line with our Company aim, which is "Deliver unique safe, enjoyable and profitable motorsport events that consistantly creates and enlarges the participant community."


This will be a two part process, first the Tech Sheet that will for all cars that drive on any road course that we involve at any event we promote. The second and more involved part of this new safety program for road courses is now we will have 4 classes of cars. This will be based on both added safety equipment on your car in some cases, but always on our opinion of your driving skills, previous training, and seat time. Very few people will automatically advance to the top class. Read our aim again, and for us to accomplish our aim, we must put safety first, before fun or profit.
We are providing this information now, so those planning to attend any of our events in 2014 will have plenty of time to review this information, decide what your goals or preferred class is, and prepare your car accordingly. Your skill set, and previous experience will be the major deciding factor on which run group you are in. All 2014 event registrations will ask some basic questions, about your previous instruction, and previous event attendance. Also there will be a section to rate yourself on your abilities. Please be as candid as you possibly can about that information to help us preplan run groups. However, please understand that the final decision on your placement in any class will be with the Race Director at that particular event. As the schedule unfolds and the Race Director is listed at the events you plan to attend, please email or call that person if you have concerns. We absolutely don't want to blindside anyone after they have spent the money to attend an event, however, our policy will be that if you are not happy with ultimate placement in the class we put you in, we will happily refund your registration money for that event, on the spot. All 2014 event registrations will ask some basic questions, about your previous instruction, and previous event attendance. Please be as candid as you possibly can about that information to help us preplan run groups.


Tech requirements all cars will abide by, regardless of which class you fall into. This is a very minimum list and we certainly encourage everyone to do more as it suits your needs.


All cars need this minimum safety tech sheet filled out, and signed by participant.

Secure battery and any other under hood issues

No drips, leaks or excessive smoking thru exhaust system

No floor mats, loose items or unsecured items allowed in interior passenger compartment or trunk

All lug nuts in place and torked by participant

Approved helmet (SA 2005 or newer)

Fire extinguisher

Seat belts


Long sleeve cotton shirt and long legged cotton pants
Approved TW tires that are in race ready condition and determined to appear in safe condition (no excessive wear patterns, chunks missing etc)

Other things we want to be very clear on are
1. No use of A/C while on track. This, by nature produces water as a by product and we refuse to allow dumping of water on the track that we know we can control. If we find you have done this, you will be asked to exit the track and not return for the remainder of that event.
2. The ONLY passengers allowed on a road course will be instructors except for Fun Run group. Please don't ask for an exception here.
3. No rear seat passengers will be allowed on track, again don't ask for an exception.


Class groups for ASCS 2014 Road Course segments
(Please note that the use of these groups will vary from event to event and some may even be eliminated at certain events, based on track, safety concerns or other factors.)

1. Fun Run Group. This group will be for all cars that don't fall into the other three groups either because of added safety equipment or driver qualifications or your registration and participation in the event.
This group will always be parade laps, lead by a pace car and speeds will always be under 60mph. All cars will be expected to do lead follow laps, closely grouped and no one will be allowed to lag behind then speed to catch back up to the group. We already know people will test this rule, but know that we will be watching and when you do, you will be asked to leave the event. No exceptions.
2. Instruction Group. This group will be where most of our participants will find themselves at least in the early events of the year. We at ASCS know that most people need some instruction. We are committed this year to provide that instruction, both in the classroom and with ride along instructors. This will get people accustomed to correct lines, proper track behavior and being aware of flag meaning, safety workers, corner workers and their roles in track safety.
There will be a system for graduating this system and certification that we feel you should have before moving on to the next class.
3. Open Track Group. This will be the group that we feel, following training, most people will be very comfortable in and where people will get the seat time necessary to move to the elite group in our program. At this level in the program, you will need the following additional safety equipment.
a. Five point harness with proper attachment points to reduce unnecessary injury.(read top belts mounted high enough so that broken collar bones are avoided.) Some belts sold are attached to the rear seatbelt system. understand that you know if you use this system you are assuming the risk of collar bone damage should you engage the belt.
b. Disk brakes on all four corners.
c. Full race suit, neck collar, gloves.
4. Timed Group. This will be our elite run group. This will be the only group that we will record lap times. Those times will not be for public consumption, but for driver information only. This group will also require the added safety equipment mentioned in the Open Track group plus the following equipment. Also know that if we do not have enough participants to run this class, everyone will simply revert back to the Open Track group.
a. Prove you can exit the car in a timely fashion should the need arise, based on rollcage, tilt wheel, removable wheel. (Probably will be handled at tech, maybe a time limit to exit car)
b. Hans or similar neck restraint device
c. Master electrical On-Off switch, clearly marked and accessible in case of emergency.
We also STRONGLY recommend but will not require in 2014 the following. We would like to mention that both of the following will probably be in future requirements so if you are currently building or planning to build a car, with the intention of running in this elite class, we strong recommend you incorporate both in your build.
a. Rollcage. We know this is a sticking point and some will decide that they just either do not or will not install a cage in their streetcar. However, rollcage requirements should be based on your particular car. We don't feel one size fits all in this case. We highly recommend that if you are building a car for future track use, regardless of whether it is our event or other track days, you get with a competent builder or engineer to get their input on what you need, based on what you plan to do with your car. As cars get faster, safety has to come into the picture, just as it does in NHRA or other segments of the hobby. At some point each participant has to decide if their car is more street car or more track day car. We understand the arguments on both sides of this debate. However, for us to have fun at events, we feel we must, at some point help people make that decision.
b. Tow hooks, front and rear.(this isn't required but certainly makes it easy for towing your car off track and assures track help doesn't do more damage by hooking their chains, straps somewhere that will not support the strain.)


As you can see from our new rules, we are moving away from the competition focus and more toward the fun aspect. We are not a race series and do not want people over driving their skill set just to gain a spot on a printout. There are a vast array of venues that will let you do that, and we fully understand if that is your objective.

[GNon18s]

Where are all of the instructors coming from?

[Damn True]

Well done Bill.

[Bill Howell]

Where are all of the instructors coming from?

That will be determined per event. That is not cheap but we feel is a very important part of the puzzle that is currently missing. I can assure you the instructors will be qualified, not just someone that is perceived as a decent driver showing what they think may be the best line. There is no need for any instruction if it isn't good instruction. And yes, classroom time will be involved. :)

[dontlifttoshift]

2. Instruction Group. This group will be where most of our participants will find themselves at least in the early events of the year. We at ASCS know that most people need some instruction. We are committed this year to provide that instruction, both in the classroom and with ride along instructors. This will get people accustomed to correct lines, proper track behavior and being aware of flag meaning, safety workers, corner workers and their roles in track safety.

Awesome!!


Five point harness

Not so much. Hoping you meant four point harness.

[Bill Howell]

Awesome!!



Not so much. Hoping you meant four point harness.

No, 5 point is the intent. The exception might be a later model car with airbags. We feel at speed, 5 points should be used.

[dontlifttoshift]

It's your sandbox but I am asking ASCS if they would reconsider the stance on 5 Points and at the very least allow these harnesses.

http://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-asm/profi-II-asm

[Todd in Vancouver]

Just read this on Facebook and this is definitely a step in the right direction. Also, credit to you for keeping an open mind and stating that this will continue to grow as we all work through it. The harness thing is going to be a tough one for a lot of folks because we may not have the right roll bar/cage set up in our cars. But, simply put without the right safety equipment we shouldn't be driving that fast on the track. I will make the appropriate modifications on my '67 to be able to run it. My ZL will run whatever it's allowed to run in its stock format as it will not be getting a cage or bar as it's my street car.

Well done and it will be interesting to see how quickly everyone else follows.

Thanks Bill.

Donny,
I will be running a similar belt in my ZL as I just want a better fit for Autocross but for open track do you think we really need a cage? Or do you have a cage and just want a different belt set up? Having watched 24hrs at LeMans last night and after seeing those crashes at speed my thoughts are that it has to be a standard having the cage/rollbar Even if it disqualifies my ZL I'm OK with it as I really want to be sure I go home at the end of the day.

[Bill Howell]

It's your sandbox but I am asking ASCS if they would reconsider the stance on 5 Points and at the very least allow these harnesses.

http://www.schrothracing.com/competition/profi-asm/profi-II-asm

I am open to discussion for sure. Tell me why you are against the extra belt? The reason I think it is necessary, have you ever seen someone slide under the lap belt in a wreck? I have and it would have been so simple to prevent with the fifth piece. Now, that can also cause pain in it's own right ( :) ) but still saves knees, etc.

[Bill Howell]

Just read this on Facebook and this is definitely a step in the right direction. Also, credit to you for keeping an open mind and stating that this will continue to grow as we all work through it. The harness thing is going to be a tough one for a lot of folks because we may not have the right roll bar/cage set up in our cars. But, simply put without the right safety equipment we shouldn't be driving that fast on the track. I will make the appropriate modifications on my '67 to be able to run it. My ZL will run whatever it's allowed to run in its stock format as it will not be getting a cage or bar as it's my street car.

Well done and it will be interesting to see how quickly everyone else follows.

Thanks Bill.

Thanks Todd, and thanks for getting it. In the past, anything goes has been the rule. We realize we can not make everyone happy. However, we feel we must set different rules for different classes. We just let you pick your own class based on your experience and car prep. We also fully understand there are other sandboxes. We just want to focus on fun, and safety and those are just words unless we put rules in place to explain what we feel is safe. There has been several weeks of discussion that went into these rules and they were written based on protouring musclecars, not modern cars with modern safety features built in. Newer cars with airbags may and I stress MAY be able to run with three point since the OEM car makers have designed cars for safety now. However, that is at save highways speeds, not all out track events. Like the rules state, each venue will regulate and determine what happens there.

[dontlifttoshift]

Sub slot is not possible on all seats and certainly not on a factory seat.

5th belt is not for anti submarine, it is to prevent the shoulder harness from pulling the lap belt up and over your hips and compressing your innards. That was my understanding of how it works, if someone knows otherwise please interject.

[Bill Howell]

Sub slot is not possible on all seats and certainly not on a factory seat.

5th belt is not for anti submarine, it is to prevent the shoulder harness from pulling the lap belt up and over your hips and compressing your innards. That was my understanding of how it works, if someone knows otherwise please interject.

You are correct, but anti submarine is just a built in benefit.
Again, I understand your argument here, but my point is this. At some point, people have to decide how fast they want to drive, and whether their car will be a streetcar or a track day car. There is no car that will do both well. We feel in the past that line has been very blurred. For ASCS, we want to help define that line. If you go back thru the rules, the faster classes need more safety equipment. Anyone that really wants to be good at speed will probably already have swapped out the factory seat for obvious reasons. We started to put seat change in the Timed class but that is another area that gets really complicated very quickly.
This information will be part of our educational program so people understand the reasons for the rules.

[GNon18s]

That will be determined per event. That is not cheap but we feel is a very important part of the puzzle that is currently missing. I can assure you the instructors will be qualified, not just someone that is perceived as a decent driver showing what they think may be the best line. There is no need for any instruction if it isn't good instruction. And yes, classroom time will be involved. :)

Good answer! I was afraid you would just make me ride around all day with one of your buddies who wasn't any better than I was. Im all about learning from someone that actually has knowledge, experience, and something to teach me, but If I just get paired up with someone because they are an industry guy with such n such company and no more experience than I have that would be a waste of time. Just my thought.

[Bill Howell]

Good answer! I was afraid you would just make me ride around all day with one of your buddies who wasn't any better than I was. Im all about learning from someone that actually has knowledge, experience, and something to teach me, but If I just get paired up with someone because they are an industry guy with such n such company and no more experience than I have that would be a waste of time. Just my thought.

Not only a waste of time but could be worse. We want people to go away feeling they got very good instruction and learned good driving habits, and understand why safety equipment is so important as speeds go up. Bad instruction is worse than no instruction because it could lead to bad habits or results.

[dontlifttoshift]

You are correct, but anti submarine is just a built in benefit.

Sounds good.


Again, I understand your argument here,

Just want to be clear, my intention is not to argue with anyone, that is what I have family for. I would like to discuss this, however.


but my point is this. At some point, people have to decide how fast they want to drive, and whether their car will be a streetcar or a track day car. There is no car that will do both well.

That is debatable until the end of time. I don't believe it MUST be one or the other, your mileage may vary. It is American Street Car Series afterall.


We feel in the past that line has been very blurred. For ASCS, we want to help define that line.

Unenviable task.


If you go back thru the rules, the faster classes need more safety equipment. Anyone that really wants to be good at speed will probably already have swapped out the factory seat for obvious reasons.

Not all aftermarket seats will accept the substrap either.

Faster classes should require more equipment, that is logical. What seems illogical to me is requiring a 5 point harness, or any harness for that matter without even the most basic of rollover protection. I understand not wanting to require a roll bar/cage but a 5 point is as much racecar as a roll cage is.

[GNon18s]

The requirement of a 5-point harness and a fire suit make these rules more strict than a NASA track day.

[Bill Howell]

Sounds good.

,

Just want to be clear, my intention is not to argue with anyone, that is what I have family for. I would like to discuss this, however.



That is debatable until the end of time. I don't believe it MUST be one or the other, your mileage may vary. It is American Street Car Series afterall.



Unenviable task.



Not all aftermarket seats will accept the substrap either.

Faster classes should require more equipment, that is logical. What seems illogical to me is requiring a 5 point harness, or any harness for that matter without even the most basic of rollover protection. I understand not wanting to require a roll bar/cage but a 5 point is as much racecar as a roll cage is.

I agree on all points, and yes, argument was a bad choice of words. However, when we look at our aim as a company, consider our level of liability to do these events and all other variables, we feel this is a good start to determine where people fit within our program. It is impossible to draw a line in the sand on street vs. track for all cars/circumstances but this is our best attempt to make that distinction at our events.

[Z06vet]

Hey Bill. Looks like you guys have been hard at work on this. After reading the rules, I'm going to be more geared toward autocross. Will the autox rules be similar to the above road course guidelines? Will the autox laps be timed? I may consider changing seats to add the needed harness for road course, but I dont want to go past that modifying my car with cage & related race safety equip. No way I could go to an event and run parade laps, im just not wired that way. Also, where will the extinguisher need to be mounted? I'm looking at doing at least 3 events this year if i can find 3 autocross events within a reasonable driving distance. Want to be prepared safety wise ahead of time. Scott

[Bill Howell]

The requirement of a 5-point harness and a fire suit make these rules more strict than a NASA track day.

And we hope safer also :) We are in no way trying to compete with NASA or anyone else for that matter. We have looked at their rules and honestly their program had a lot to do with our timing decisions. At the end of the day, we would rather you remember the dinner that was served or the new buddy you met or the movie we watched in the parking lot rather than who won what on the track. Our best responses to our events have been our autocross shootouts and our head to head speed stop squared runoffs and neither involved a timer.

[Bill Howell]

Hey Bill. Looks like you guys have been hard at work on this. After reading the rules, I'm going to be more geared toward autocross. Will the autox rules be similar to the above road course guidelines? Will the autox laps be timed? I may consider changing seats to add the needed harness for road course, but I dont want to go past that modifying my car with cage & related race safety equip. No way I could go to an event and run parade laps, im just not wired that way. Also, where will the extinguisher need to be mounted? I'm looking at doing at least 3 events this year if i can find 3 autocross events within a reasonable driving distance. Want to be prepared safety wise ahead of time. Scott
Autocross rules will be as they have always been. Generic tech sheet only. Yes, laps will be timed for your own consumption, but the current shootout system we have used for a couple years now will determine the "winner".
These new rules are for events that include roadcourse action. Not all events will even have roadcourses.

[dontlifttoshift]

On a related note, is there a 2014 ASCS shcedule available yet?

[Project92rs]

And we hope safer also :) At the end of the day, we would rather you remember the dinner that was served or the new buddy you met or the movie we watched in the parking lot rather than who won what on the track. Our best responses to our events have been our autocross shootouts and our head to head speed stop squared runoffs and neither involved a timer.

And the 6000 mile journey to enjoy the event with those same people.....

Guess it's time to evaluate how hard the car is going to get pushed and add the necessary safety equipment. Even if that means a cage and different seats to allow for a properly mounted 5 pt.

[Bill Howell]

On a related note, is there a 2014 ASCS shcedule available yet?
No, these rules did effect two events planned and we are waiting on decisions for another one. Once we have that information complete we will share.
Thanks for understanding. We wanted to get this right first before having a conflict later.

[Bill Howell]

And the 6000 mile journey to enjoy the event with those same people.....


Hold that thought. We will do an event sorta close to you this year that will be about the trip as much as it will the destination.....:)

As I look back at the things I have done over the past several years with my cars, the most fun I have had at any single event was the two road trips we made as a group to SEMA and back. We feel more people will get involved in the hobby if we concentrate on that and stop trying to turn everyone into racers.

[SSLance]

I applaud your efforts on this Bill. I've never been to one of your events before, but hopefully I can work one in this year.

I see nothing wrong with the way you've laid the rules out here, they sound very logical and make good sense to me.

[Bill Howell]

I applaud your efforts on this Bill. I've never been to one of your events before, but hopefully I can work one in this year.

I see nothing wrong with the way you've laid the rules out here, they sound very logical and make good sense to me.

Thanks Lance. We have looked at doing something maybe close to you in Colorado, we are just hesitate that we can't get enough people to participate. We will pull the trigger there one of these days though, mainly because the track manager is a great guy and I want to play there....lol

[Ron.in.SoCal]

Bill are you making a distinction between roll cages and roll bars? i.e. 4-5-6-10-12 point attachment?

I commend you for attempting to make your events fun, safe yet still include the road course. My personal opinion is I'd prefer to see it timed in all but 'fun' classes, but respect your decision. I also was bummed about RTTC.

[Bill Howell]

Bill are you making a distinction between roll cages and roll bars? i.e. 4-5-6-10-12 point attachment?

I commend you for attempting to make your events fun, safe yet still include the road course. My personal opinion is I'd prefer to see it timed in all but 'fun' classes, but respect your decision. I also was bummed about RTTC.

Cages/bars or not going to be required this year. My guess is when we do require cages in cars, they will be a 6 point, more about rollovers than side impacts. We will NEVER endorse or allow side by side runs, just not what pt is about.
Don't give up on us totally for RTTC, there will be a California event later in the year. With the closing of El Toro, California is a tough place to do any event that is both in our opinion safe and affordable. However, the new plan will fix that somewhat. Details coming.

[David Pozzi]

Sub slot is not possible on all seats and certainly not on a factory seat.

5th belt is not for anti submarine, it is to prevent the shoulder harness from pulling the lap belt up and over your hips and compressing your innards. That was my understanding of how it works, if someone knows otherwise please interject.

It's for both anti-submarine and to prevent lap belt ride-up.
I highly recommend a 6 point system, it's what we use. You won't need to modify your seat, & you won't have to learn first hand why the 5 point is nicknamed "the ball breaker".

[Slick68]

Sounds good, Bill. Many of the safety reasons above is why I don't attend any road course events. I didn't initially build my truck to autocross or put on a track. I actually built a show vehicle, but now I'm bored with typical car shows and want to be more involved with driving events. I'm still contemplating changing seats and adding a harness bar, but I'm in no way prepared to do a full cage. If I make it to any road course events, I'll just stick to parade laps, and watching the skilled drivers run fast.

I'm also interested in the schooling aspect since experience is one area I'm seriously lacking.

[1966longroof]

Bill, thanks for the Hard Work. What are Snell requirements for Helmets this year, and what are the rules for the Fire Suit (Race suit)? There is one piece, two piece, single layer and more? Obviously a One Piece with multiple layers is the safest in the event of fire.

[Cobra 498]

Great Job Bill! You have the fun of driving fast on a road course combined with Speed Stop and Autox competition to see who is fastest in those venues. When I last ran with you at RTTC I had non compliant tires and was not eligible to have my times posted. I had a blast anyway, just driving my car fast on the road course as I think others will too. Added bonus is the speed stop and autox will be timed so there will still be fierce but safe competition. It will be like Good Guys on steroids.

[Bill Howell]

Bill, thanks for the Hard Work. What are Snell requirements for Helmets this year, and what are the rules for the Fire Suit (Race suit)? There is one piece, two piece, single layer and more? Obviously a One Piece with multiple layers is the safest in the event of fire.

Helmets are SA 2005 or SA2010
Fire suits can be one layer and one/two piece. Fire suits are like helmets, I try to buy the best/most I can afford since I am very sensitive to fire and I live my brains together...lol

[Bill Howell]

Great Job Bill! You have the fun of driving fast on a road course combined with Speed Stop and Autox competition to see who is fastest in those venues. When I last ran with you at RTTC I had non compliant tires and was not eligible to have my times posted. I had a blast anyway, just driving my car fast on the road course as I think others will too. Added bonus is the speed stop and autox will be timed so there will still be fierce but safe competition. It will be like Good Guys on steroids.

Thanks, we try hard! :)

[Bill Howell]

Sounds good, Bill. Many of the safety reasons above is why I don't attend any road course events. I didn't initially build my truck to autocross or put on a track. I actually built a show vehicle, but now I'm bored with typical car shows and want to be more involved with driving events. I'm still contemplating changing seats and adding a harness bar, but I'm in no way prepared to do a full cage. If I make it to any road course events, I'll just stick to parade laps, and watching the skilled drivers run fast.

I'm also interested in the schooling aspect since experience is one area I'm seriously lacking.

Thanks Matt

[Beach Cruiser]

I agree with David Pozzi, perhaps it should read minimum 5 point harness. A six point does the same thing and most cars will be able to accept it. Still hung up on the instructor qualifications though?

[Bill Howell]

I agree with David Pozzi, perhaps it should read minimum 5 point harness. A six point does the same thing and most cars will be able to accept it. Still hung up on the instructor califications though?

Reviewing the 6 point already, thanks.

How would "10/10s or equivalent" make you feel? I won't go into great detail as to why I have issues with some of the other instructor programs, but I know the 10/10s group have instructors there for instruction, not to trade that for lap time.

[protouring70]

As some have already said....WELL DONE!... I know from past experencies Bill that you care about the people you come in contact with and I hope everyone sees where you and your team is going with this. Thanks for putting SAFETY FIRST! At the end of the day we all want to go home in one piece. I hope that I can enjoy some events this year myself.

[Beach Cruiser]

I'm not there looking for free lap time, just to contribute what I have learned over the years. I've never been to a 10/10's event so I can't say. It's your call, I've seen several comments about "who are the instructors" so I wanted to find out what the pedigree was. I'm sure you won't be able to hire instructors for all the guys in that group. I am planning to run at least three events this year that are close enough for me to attend.

[Bill Howell]

Thanks Brent, I hear there were some "hairy" moments in North Ga. recently??? lol Beach cruiser, check your pm please sir. And, for the record, I would love to have you instruct. I learned plenty from you at VIR and that was in a stupid automatic....lol

[James OLC]

Sub slot is not possible on all seats and certainly not on a factory seat.

5th belt is not for anti submarine, it is to prevent the shoulder harness from pulling the lap belt up and over your hips and compressing your innards. That was my understanding of how it works, if someone knows otherwise please interject.

Most six-point harnesses (i.e. Willans) don't require a slot in the seat for the 5th and 6th belt. Assuming that a six point would be acceptable (?O)

[Bill Howell]

Most six-point harnesses (i.e. Willans) don't require a slot in the seat for the 5th and 6th belt. Assuming that a six point would be acceptable (?O)

As both David and James point out, IMO a six point would be an upgrade from the five point so yes, better is good. Safety rules are minimums, improving on them is great.

[So Cal Camaro]

It will be interesting to see how large the attendance is at your events going forward, because without timing, I don't see a large group of the regulars spending the money to attend your events to just drive around the track without getting timed. Myself, I am actually middle of the pack timewise on the road courses, but like to see my times to see if I am improving versus the rest and without that, not sure I will make future events. I do like the addition of instruction as I have participated in Jet Hot's autocross school at multiple events...so no problem with that part, enjoy learning and gaining more skills. Anyway, will watch to see the event when announced in So Cal and see the details and costs to decide...

[silvermonte]

How will you limit the speed in group 3? I would think in this group you would be in the car by yourself and would be spaced apart so no issues could arise. I understand why you dont want to record times in this group, but would it be possible to do single time slips so that only the driver sees their time with nothing posted. I think it would help to know if you are sticking to the line like you should or if you are doing something wrong and slowing down. I see it as more of a training tool then anything else.

[GNon18s]

I don't understand the difference between a 5-point or 6-point harness. In either case, the anti-sub strap is in your crotch connecting from the floor/seat bracket to your buckle. Correct?

[Todd in Vancouver]

It will be interesting to see how large the attendance is at your events going forward, because without timing, I don't see a large group of the regulars spending the money to attend your events to just drive around the track without getting timed. Myself, I am actually middle of the pack timewise on the road courses, but like to see my times to see if I am improving versus the rest and without that, not sure I will make future events. I do like the addition of instruction as I have participated in Jet Hot's autocross school at multiple events...so no problem with that part, enjoy learning and gaining more skills. Anyway, will watch to see the event when announced in So Cal and see the details and costs to decide...

If timing is an issue then can you not have an in-car timer so you can track your times? My ZL has a track timer built in and I see a number of guys with Go-Pro in their cars which also has a timing function. If having the time is that important guys will find a work around. The spirit of the lack of timing equipment, in my opinion, is the right thing to do. We need to become better, faster and smoother drivers first and then the timing comes in. But if you are attending these events on a regular basis and have done the instructional training then wouldn't you be moving up in classes anyway?

[401Spirit]

Bill...I am a level 3 BMWCCA instructor and a NASA instructor. I also have vintage raced with SVRA and other venues,NASA,etc. As an old f**t instructor,some students don't like my way of "go slow to go fast". Gene Felton taught this to me 30 yrs.ago and it works.

I will be available to instruct as soon as the schedule is announced...George

[lzdick]

I don't understand the difference between a 5-point or 6-point harness. In either case, the anti-sub strap is in your crotch connecting from the floor/seat bracket to your buckle. Correct?

Justin,
Think of a 6-point as surrounding your 'boys' and the 5-point as separating them.

[dontlifttoshift]

Most six-point harnesses (i.e. Willans) don't require a slot in the seat for the 5th and 6th belt. Assuming that a six point would be acceptable (?O)

James, I looked up Willans and they have a decent pdf showing proper install. It looks to me like it still requires a sub slot. http://www.willansharness.us/Files/W005-3.pdf

Do you have any pictures of your install? Did you run the sub belts out the back between the seat bottom and seat back? Then you would sit on the substraps, right? Are they still effective that way? How adjustable are the substraps for different drivers?

Parsons if you see this could you post your 6 point as well?

[GrabberGT]

Here is Schroth belt manual. I route my sub belts out the back between the seat bottom and seat back. Per Schroth, it is acceptable to be sitting on the belts. "This anti-sub strap design requires sitting on the straps or having a thin seat panel allowing the straps running rearwards right underneath the driver’s buttock."

http://www.schroth.com/installation-instructions/en/03_anchorage_locations_and_geometries.htm

I like the rules Bill. Good job. They are LESS strict than I expected them to be. Like maybe a speed limit for all but the Elite class. Its not said but I'll assume this is part of the course profile selection and options you left in place for more/less rules based on such.

Cant wait to see the event list and if there will be an event within 500 miles of me this year. Im still kicking myself for not being able to make it to the Alamo event.

[dontlifttoshift]

I have read that but thanks for posting the link. This is the part I am trying to wrap my head around.

88306

If it will still allow a buckle ride up, then what is the point? If you mount the harness without a sub hole in the seat bottom or you are not using a one piece FIA seat bucket with lap belt slots that are very low then it will not function properly. That is the way I understand the above warning.

[mdprovee]

Cages/bars or not going to be required this year. My guess is when we do require cages in cars, they will be a 6 point, more about rollovers than side impacts. We will NEVER endorse or allow side by side runs, just not what pt is about.
Don't give up on us totally for RTTC, there will be a California event later in the year. With the closing of El Toro, California is a tough place to do any event that is both in our opinion safe and affordable. However, the new plan will fix that somewhat. Details coming.

Bill I too like the rule changes even if it changes my game plan or excludes me from participating. I know I do not have the knowledge or skill to run all out on a road course. But I would like to get to that level of fun, but still keep it streetable to me.

I like the idea of instructors, but also like the idea if timing being used even of nothing is posted. I would like the idea of seeing "my times" improve with their instruction, rather than feeling like I am going faster. Just my two cents.

The other thing is roll bar or cage. After seeing the rule changes, again I like them, I am considering getting a roll bar. I was considering Ridetech's Tigercage with door bars, as I could remove it when my young boys want to go for a ride. Also looking at a welded in 6 point like the Chassisworks.

https://www.cachassisworks.com/p-2691-camaro-67-69-f-body-exact-fit-roll-bar-and-door-bars-1-34-mild-steel.aspx

Would either of things be what will be expected in the future? I don't want to get this all in the car only to learn later that it is not the intent of the rule.

[James OLC]

James, I looked up Willans and they have a decent pdf showing proper install. It looks to me like it still requires a sub slot. http://www.willansharness.us/Files/W005-3.pdf

Do you have any pictures of your install? Did you run the sub belts out the back between the seat bottom and seat back? Then you would sit on the substraps, right? Are they still effective that way? How adjustable are the substraps for different drivers?

Parsons if you see this could you post your 6 point as well?

Donny,

Willans has two styles (at least) of 6-point harnesses (I happen to have both). The set that go with the instructions you posted should be these:

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

which, in my opinion, would be best suited for a seat with a sub slot (since they are more like a 5-point with dual mounting points).

The set that I have been using in the OLC are this style (which are the Nascar pieces):

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2014/01/willians_6point_harness-1.jpg

I run the sub straps over the seat and under the thighs as they are "entering" from the side rather than from below. They (Willans) have now added a 7th belt - a conventional middle mounted sub - to the Nascar set (I don't know if it's a rule).

[Bill Howell]

Bill I too like the rule changes even if it changes my game plan or excludes me from participating. I know I do not have the knowledge or skill to run all out on a road course. But I would like to get to that level of fun, but still keep it streetable to me.

I like the idea of instructors, but also like the idea if timing being used even of nothing is posted. I would like the idea of seeing "my times" improve with their instruction, rather than feeling like I am going faster. Just my two cents.

The other thing is roll bar or cage. After seeing the rule changes, again I like them, I am considering getting a roll bar. I was considering Ridetech's Tigercage with door bars, as I could remove it when my young boys want to go for a ride. Also looking at a welded in 6 point like the Chassisworks.

https://www.cachassisworks.com/p-2691-camaro-67-69-f-body-exact-fit-roll-bar-and-door-bars-1-34-mild-steel.aspx

Would either of things be what will be expected in the future? I don't want to get this all in the car only to learn later that it is not the intent of the rule.

Rollcage/bar debate goes on forever. We will in the future as speeds get faster and timing returns (if and when) require some type of protection. Trouble is there is more to that than just saying you need ****. From a liability standpoint as a promoter, you have to somehow approve said cage/bar as safe for your event and that it is installed properly. That is a tough challenge when you are doing events all over the country. The attached picture shows a poor installation and it's results. The last thing I want is see a similar picture of one of you guy's car. I just couldn't live with that. I currently don't have the answer and until I do, don't look for really high speeds and certainly not posted timed road course runs from ASCS. We all know that the more you focus on speed, competition and winning, the more big money infiltrates your venue. We are not after that, don't feel the hobby in it's current state is ready for it and will not be part of it. We understand the fallout from that decision, and are good with that too. We are willing to put our business on the line when we say Safety First. It isn't just a byline.

Please, understand that pro-touring is a growing segment in the hobby. It can grow in all sorts of directions for everyone that wants to be part of it. Racing is and certainly should be a part of this segment, but shouldn't mean that most protourers can't play or feel comfortable if they are forced to feel they have to compete. There are certainly plenty of venues for those that want to race, and that is the great news here. We just want to take a step back, and point in another direction so more of you guys will get involved and get those cars out of the garage. It is all about what you want out of your car and what events you feel comfortable with. We are certainly not asking you to change your plans for us, we are simply clarifying what our position is and what our new direction will be.

[GeoffP]

Ouch - don't want that to be me!

[GNon18s]

I saw people arguing over that picture on here before. The whole bolt-in vs. weld-in thing. Bottom line is that was too hard of an impact (airborne, end-over-end, and landed on its roof) for a 6/8-piont roll bar. Even if everybody running in ASCS had a professionally welded 1.75 chromoly 6-point bar it wouldn't hold up to a worst case scenario like that. Im chalking that one up to bad track design. The tire wall shouldn't work like a ramp!

[GNon18s]

Also, What do you mean by "cotton pants"? It sounds like your saying no jeans but sweat pants or pajamas are ok??

[Bill Howell]

Also, What do you mean by "cotton pants"? It sounds like your saying no jeans but sweat pants or pajamas are ok??

I went and checked, my jeans are cotton. lol No, jeans are fine, double polyester slacks not so much. They would leave you with permeant plaid legs in a fire.. :(

[Damn True]

I saw people arguing over that picture on here before. The whole bolt-in vs. weld-in thing. Bottom line is that was too hard of an impact (airborne, end-over-end, and landed on its roof) for a 6/8-piont roll bar. Even if everybody running in ASCS had a professionally welded 1.75 chromoly 6-point bar it wouldn't hold up to a worst case scenario like that. Im chalking that one up to bad track design. The tire wall shouldn't work like a ramp!

Ive seen properly built/installed cages stand up to far worse. Bottom line is that that roll bar was neither right for the application, nor properly installed. The occupants were lucky the car had reclining seats. One bad choice (the seats) accidentally saved their lives when the other bad choice (an improperly installed autopower bolt in roll bar) failed.

[GeoffP]

Guys on the Fire Resistant issue, 100% cotton is the best you can do before going to FR rated clothing. I know this from being in the electric utility industry for the last 16 years. We just recently switched our guys from 100% cotton to FR clothing last year. Just check the tag on the jeans you buy - it's not hard to find 100% cotton jeans and as you know most name brand T-shirts both long sleeve and short sleeve are 100% cotton.

None of the synthetics or synth/cotton blends are even remotely good. The synthetic material melts and bonds to your skin so unless you want to wear your clothes permanently make sure you go 100% cotton as the minimum.

One of our guys got burned recently - skin grafts are not something you want to have to be done to you.

[RS_Customs]

It will be interesting to see how large the attendance is at your events going forward, because without timing, I don't see a large group of the regulars spending the money to attend your events to just drive around the track without getting timed. Myself, I am actually middle of the pack timewise on the road courses, but like to see my times to see if I am improving versus the rest and without that, not sure I will make future events. I do like the addition of instruction as I have participated in Jet Hot's autocross school at multiple events...so no problem with that part, enjoy learning and gaining more skills. Anyway, will watch to see the event when announced in So Cal and see the details and costs to decide...

This change is directed at the road course portion from everything I have read. The autocross timing portion should not be changing. Most the people that would not be in the upper timed class would be going through good instruction where they will be getting to improve their feel for driving fast properly before they need to worry about being timed.

Robert

[srh3trinity]

I like the rules. It seems to hit all of the things that you set out to accomplish. Fun, safe and informative events.