I need your thoughts

[badazz81z28]

Hey,

As you can see in a couple of my threads, I have been contemplating what direction I'm going with my 1978 camaro. As some of you may know I'm in the military for the long haul. A recent law was passed that even if my car is registered in a non smog law state, I will now have to comply with the local laws which I reside. Obviously I have an LS based engine and not CA compliant. What should I do? Cut my losses and look for 70-74 camaro to transplant all my goodies? Or hope out one day my 78 will be exempt?

I'm starting to get to the point where I will be making big mods to the car....don't want to too involved if I'm going to walk away. I'm really torn here and need some advice

[raustinss]

I don't know the laws but can't you put in a a newer ls motor with emissions equipment or put that on your own motor?

[badazz81z28]

Yeah. You could if you use a stock motor. My power goals are eventually at least 600-700hp.

Hard to do that without mods that are smog friendly. I will be limited to the LS7

[Ron Sutton]

I was in the same boat with my 77 Bandit Trans Am, as I live in California. I "think" California law allows cars pre-1974 to be smog-exempt. I could be wrong on the exact year, but I know my 1977 doesn't qualify. I eventually gave it to my nephew in Texas. IMHO, I don't see that law changing anytime soon to favor us.

[DesertFox]

Does CA by any chance have a collector car exemption?
Next door in AZ if we put our car on collector car insurance MVD waives the emissions laws.
Of course the down side means you have to have a daily driver, but it's ben a lifesaver over here for some of us.

[Tomswheels]

Hey,

As you can see in a couple of my threads, I have been contemplating what direction I'm going with my 1978 camaro. As some of you may know I'm in the military for the long haul. A recent law was passed that even if my car is registered in a non smog law state, I will now have to comply with the local laws which I reside. Obviously I have an LS based engine and not CA compliant. What should I do? Cut my losses and look for 70-74 camaro to transplant all my goodies? Or hope out one day my 78 will be exempt?

I'm starting to get to the point where I will be making big mods to the car....don't want to too involved if I'm going to walk away. I'm really torn here and need some advice

Option 1: switch to an Erod smog legal LS motor from the general.

Option 2: modify your LS to meet whatever year it was produced smog rules. I.e. 1997 produced LS1 has to meet 1997 smog (A Nightmare of cats and lord knows what else, you have to pass the sniffer and visual test, the Erod is a much better choice)

Option 3: buy a 1975 or earlier Camaro and either switch the vins, or switch all your components to it.

Option 4: have somebody, somewhere in another state register it and take your chances with "the law"

[raustinss]

Cmon guy get real here look at the technology we have right infront of us. Jesus you've got a 638 hp ZR1 200mph wih a warranty and it's passing smog laws......THIS is the new era the laws will never change to help "us" we best them at their own game a erod motor is the best bet. I totally get the wanted horsepower levels but really, you most certainly can do with only 556 in the case of a LSA motor. Toss a t56 behind it and drive the snot out of it.
Just because your car won't pass now isn't the end of the world. Hell don't we remember when carburetors were replaced with fuel injection, we've survived that haven't we ? Even the hill jack redneck sport of NASCAR has had to change and move on. Keep your car toss a new motor at it and away you go
Ryan Austin

[badazz81z28]

My problem is I just put a new LS engine in. I'm not made of money for another $10k engine! Would a cammed LS engine pass the standards set for a 78 car?

[V8240Z]

Rob,
The problem is not the emissions, it is the equipment requirements. If you smog it as a 78 it needs cats, a smog pump, evap system, spark control, TAC, etc... The other option is to contact the BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) and get a referee appointment. They will make you install the equipment for the engine that you have installed. I would try that first. Then, if all else fails, find a 73 body.....

Charles

[raustinss]

I'm confused...does the engine need to pass with 78 technology? Or with the modern stuff...like throw some cats on the motor maybe mess around with a computer and away you go...yes?
Again pardon my ignorance from the little bit that I do know the car must pass the test based on the year of the engine correct
Ryan Austin

[badazz81z28]

I think for CA yes, it needs to be compliant for the year of the engine. As for other states I'm not sure, but being the military , I may have my hands full as I PCS

[qnitro]

If your military from another state your smog exempt. If your home state is California your screwed.. Cut your loss and go with a 75 or older..

[badazz81z28]

If your military from another state your smog exempt. If your home state is California your screwed.. Cut your loss and go with a 75 or older..


Yeah, that's how I have been getting by. A new law called "Ecars" is going to mandate federal employees to comply with local laws regardless of state of registration.

[raustinss]

Still unsure of why you just dont make the current engine pass...have you even tried to see how bad it is...a couple of catalytic converters are cheaper then tossing a whole car which you've already spent time and money on...just to try and find a equally nice older one and then time and more money to try and get it to where you want

[1966longroof]

Rob,
The problem is not the emissions, it is the equipment requirements. If you smog it as a 78 it needs cats, a smog pump, evap system, spark control, TAC, etc... The other option is to contact the BAR (Bureau of Automotive Repair) and get a referee appointment. They will make you install the equipment for the engine that you have installed. I would try that first. Then, if all else fails, find a 73 body.....

Charles

Rob, the info Charles provided is a good place to start. Usually, in situations such as yours....... wavers can be provided. If you get told No, don't take it. You can always write your home state Congressman/Senators and even those in California and ask for a waiver. Additionally, as soon as you hit 24 months on station, start asking for new orders to get outta there.

[zbugger]

As far as I know, it California all cars 1975 and older are exempt from emissions inspections. HOWEVER.... If you get pulled over and don't have the proper emissions equipment on the car you will be sent to a referee. And then you have issues. Luckily most police don't enforce this, so modded cars go right on by. If you do install a newer engine in the car, it must be smogged as the vehicle it came out of. My '77 is stuck with this crap. I'm not letting it stop me though. I'll work around it.

[badazz81z28]

As far as I know, it California all cars 1975 and older are exempt from emissions inspections. HOWEVER.... If you get pulled over and don't have the proper emissions equipment on the car you will be sent to a referee. And then you have issues. Luckily most police don't enforce this, so modded cars go right on by. If you do install a newer engine in the car, it must be smogged as the vehicle it came out of. My '77 is stuck with this crap. I'm not letting it stop me though. I'll work around it.

What are your plans?

[badazz81z28]

You know by doing some extensive research it appears anyone living in a decent size city/town is dealing with smog issues. I have seen some areas require cars as far back as 1964 require the sniffer and I saw as late as 1978....

Realistically it seems to me any engine swap regardless of popular muscle car year can't "legally" build a fire breathing race car despite being technically smog exempt. Even a 1969 camaro with an LS is required to be compliant with the 2000s standards. I guess it really does come down to enforcement and area which you live.

I just found out Alaska lifted all the smog laws in Anchorage. At least I'm safe in my home area....if I ever go back any time soon

[raustinss]

So what needs to be done to get the car to pass with the LS?

[badazz81z28]

So what needs to be done to get the car to pass with the LS?


For California at least, the LS must be stock or only have CARB compliant bolt ons plus all the OEM emission equipment installed. Nothing wrong with that, but I won't be happy unless I have at least 550hp.

[130fe]

Have you tried going to get your current setup smog checked, just for giggles? How much longer do you plan on staying there (before you PCS next)? I know that PCSing CONUS to CONUS is harder (I am retired AF), but not impossible. Just curious, how much TOS do you have? Something to think about, I would just say F-it and drive it as long as you can. Plead ignorance in the mean time and start looking for the next body if you plan in staying in CA for much longer.

[Tomswheels]

Option 1: switch to an Erod smog legal LS motor from the general.

Option 2: modify your LS to meet whatever year it was produced smog rules. I.e. 1997 produced LS1 has to meet 1997 smog (A Nightmare of cats and lord knows what else, you have to pass the sniffer and visual test, the Erod is a much better choice)

Option 3: buy a 1975 or earlier Camaro and either switch the vins, or switch all your components to it.

Option 4: have somebody, somewhere in another state register it and take your chances with "the law"

These are still your options....

[raustinss]

For California at least, the LS must be stock or only have CARB compliant bolt ons plus all the OEM emission equipment installed. Nothing wrong with that, but I won't be happy unless I have at least 550hp.

Ok so now I'm understanding a little more, do you know for a fact you can't make 550 and pass or is it a guess and why don't you just get it tested and see
See here in Ontario we've got that crap too but anything pre 87 is exempt but either way youay 30-35$ do the test and if you fail you take it home and can work on it or if the repair is estimated to cost more then 400$ they will give you a exemption pass

[g-machine]

Is this car your daily driver? I am originally from Chicago and we were dealing with this stuff 20 years ago. We were able to get antique plates (25 years and older was the cut) and specialty insurance to be exempt. It never stopped any of us from driving our cars whenever we wanted.

[srh3trinity]

What is your plan to make 550hp with an ls1? Stroker? Blower?

[badazz81z28]

What is your plan to make 550hp with an ls1? Stroker? Blower?

One day..... OUSCI

my LS already makes that kind of power at the crank NA

[feeble]

I am fortunate to live in a state that has no enforced emissions requirements.

One thing I don't understand is... Why don't governing bodies just have a standard that dictates what levels are allowed for CO, CO2, and whatever else and then as long as your car passes the test, you are good to go? Why this mandate (in some cases) that original emissions equipment from the 70s and 80s be kept in place when the newer engines are much cleaner out of the box?

[raustinss]

Please don't take this wrong but I get the impression that you have no idea if the car will pass or not and are almost just giving up....again relating it to if you were here...go for a test..If you fail that is at least a starting point for what you do need to do and how much it will cost
Ryan Austin

[badazz81z28]

Please don't take this wrong but I get the impression that you have no idea if the car will pass or not and are almost just giving up....again relating it to if you were here...go for a test..If you fail that is at least a starting point for what you do need to do and how much it will cost
Ryan Austin


California has a visual inspection. Yes it will not pass. The emission systems are turned off on the ECM and the harness does not have the provisions for post CATs o2 sensors. Other states.....maybe if they only require a sniffer.

[raustinss]

So your looking at a new harness reflash ecm...o2 sensors..cats....anything else? Is the test done annually or good for a few years

[MonzaRacer]

Well here is the interesting idea, make sure all the 1978 evaporator system appliances are installed and operable. As for the engine it should NOT be hard to meet what ever year it needs to be for other emissions compliance. As for the catalyst exhaust no big deal just build it up, then get her certified good. shouldnt be hard. One issue is if that engine say could be in a Camaro or Corvette, then EO cats might be had from Random Technologies or Magnaflow.
What you MIGHT have to do is have a dual in single cat setup then get her checked and then bolt on your fun exhaust.
The issue here is you wont be able to just slap it together and drive, you NOW have to adapts to the rules and regulations.
I would figure making it operate as it did out of GMs factory should not be hard, being clean is easy, all gas is now atleast E10/E15, dope her with a little more E100 and make it sniff clean, or fix it so it rune like an E85 only engine and have two ECMs.
There are several ways to attack this, but FIRST learn what the worst and best emission standards your engine needs to pass with.
You may find that with some simple compliance you will NOT have to do as much as you thought.
I know a buddy long time ago when they where pushing stupid standards on older cars with newer engines. He had a 57 Chevy, TPI 355, 700R4. They(California) gave him a laundry list of things to do. After close inspection he went out, found Camaro of same vintage as engine, stripped all the Evap stuff out. Got his soldering iron out and some copper tubing (as it was easier to install) and he added all the emissions stuff BACK onto the engine. Biggest issue was figuring out the EGR system as he had some erroneous information.
So he rebuilt that, had gas tank all swapped over with all the necessary hook ups, found a cap that would operate and fit properly.
As for his exhaust he simply built it with EO style header (probably one of the first set of EO TPI stainless headers ever built, ie copy of EO mild steel) A new company that made high flow cats set him up with a dual set up (yet they carried the EO numbers that corresponded with his engine) and built true duals with x or h pipe (when he had them test it he made it so it all came out one pipe for testing).
Yes it was a pain, yes he had to do some research, and yes it was even cleaner than when it ran in Camaro.
Proving you have done the most you could to adapt all emissions equipment AND having a clean tail pipe should get you passed and as for power, heck there is a guy on theturboforums.com that got a TPI, twin turboed GTA Firebird , built with a worn out POS engine (called the Grenade namely cause it never did and ran a best of 9.37 in 1/4 and never was rebuilt, 150k POS take out engine and it never broke the short block) and it passed in Spokane Washington.
As for power adder heck little squeeze or a turbo will do that nicely and all you do for Emission test is make it readily by-passable.
If ol Marty can take a POS 040 worn out 350, slap on couple of GN turbos, a TPI with Commander 950 ecm, Freightliner intercooler and make a car go 9s in 1/4 ,street drive it and pass emissions, heck it cant be that hard if your car is nicely built and passes tail pipe test.
As for 550hp, heck I know of at least 2 Lingenfelter Corvettes out there in Kalifornia that make WELL OVER 700 hp and pass the dreaded sniffer.
Get your info, develop a plan and worn it. Bet you will come out smarter AND just a fast. And it will only take some patience and ingenuity, and maybe a little more elbow grease and minor cash outlay.

[MonzaRacer]

Post cat O2s are ONLY for cat efficiency testing, reflashing computer isnt hard and as for other parts, evap and stuff it cant be that hard.
And I hate to say this but it sure isnt that hard to deal with IF you go ask some question, make a few minor sacrifices of time and maybe little more money. As for the secondary O2s also, all you need are bungs welded after cats, some extra wiring for that part harness that you wire in for testing. You figure out where those wires go into ECM harness, hit up a dealer tech to install some terminals. Figure out if you can swap in another STOCK computer but with only enough tweaking to keep healthy engine happy during sniffer test.
IF I had to do this certs, Id build that harness separate, make sure I can source appropriate parts. figure out how to make them "look" installed. Get her smogged and passed.
My bet is if you were to just contact Magnaflow or another cat company they could set you up with proper high flow cats. install those, forget rear O2 sensors as your never had them.
Easy way on Evap is study up on 78 and what ever year your engine is, bet a mix of parts and some minor tweaking would make it work and get you a pass.
I have been trying to get some people to work with me on a universal Emissions package that would help Hot Rodders, get and keep emission certs and not impact performance or looks, but it seems that most people wont even THINK of ADDING that to a project.
HMMMM, well now got me wondering if I need to revisit my idea some more.
good luck.

[MonzaRacer]

What year is your ENGINE based on? like a 2001 Camaro, 04 Corvette. would be nice to try and figure out what specific standards you need to meet, other than looks. Because any tech worth his certs should KNOW the engine is already cleaner than a smogged /carbed SBC. you might get away with passing sniffer test alone and some other minor mods, at best maybe adding some cats.(as I do specs research, now that you got me thinking)

[badazz81z28]

It's a 2004 GTO ls1, but it is cammed

[Tomswheels]

So what this means, in our great state of CA, is everything has to be 2004 GTO, OR have a carb Exemption #, no exceptions. Doesn't matter what the sniffer says. You have to go to a referee station and pass as a 2004 GTO. How many aftermarket non-CA EoD parts do you have?

[LeighP]

So, you don't have family living someplace with no emissions testing? They register the car and "loan" it to you.....if stopped, hey, you're just driving your "sister's" car and she lives in XXXXX.....
Just a thought.

[badazz81z28]

So what this means, in our great state of CA, is everything has to be 2004 GTO, OR have a carb Exemption #, no exceptions. Doesn't matter what the sniffer says. You have to go to a referee station and pass as a 2004 GTO. How many aftermarket non-CA EoD parts do you have?


Lol...I have every single bolt on available.

[badazz81z28]

So, you don't have family living someplace with no emissions testing? They register the car and "loan" it to you.....if stopped, hey, you're just driving your "sister's" car and she lives in XXXXX.....
Just a thought.


I know you probably breezed over the first post, but the car is titled and registered in AK. It's the new law that is being forced upon us. If the car is operated in the area, it must meet the local laws.

[badazz81z28]

I appreciate all the response. I'm going to do some research and see what I can get from a GTO

[raustinss]

Rob good luck on the search, please keep us posted as to what you do. We all know it can pass just git to figure out how
Ryan Austin

[BonzoHansen]

This?

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4_7/publication/afi32-7040/afi32-7040.pdf

Seems like an undue and unreasonable financial burden on federal employees and an overreach of authority to some degree. Did this pass? You might want to reach out to SEMA-SAN.

put in for a transfer, it might be easier than passing kalifornia testing. or get your wallet out and go e-rod.

[130fe]

Have you talked to anyone else that might be in your situation? What is the mandatory implementation date? I found some AFI's that came out in 07 for it, but now it is an issue? I know there are many modified engines/cars running around on ALL bases and you are not the only one in this situation. Is not having the cat and rear O2's keeping you from passing the visual inspection? I retired in 2010 but am still a dependent (wife is still AD AF). She hasn't mentioned anything about this and we live in Nevada (another smog state). Is this vehicle your daily driver? If not, can't you just not register it on base? I don't think the SP/MP's are going to be asking for the smog check certificate.

[badazz81z28]

This?

http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_a4_7/publication/afi32-7040/afi32-7040.pdf

Seems like an undue and unreasonable financial burden on federal employees and an overreach of authority to some degree. Did this pass? You might want to reach out to SEMA-SAN.

put in for a transfer, it might be easier than passing kalifornia testing. or get your wallet out and go e-rod.

Bonzo, I heard it has already been implemented in Nevada and Arizona. I was told via email to expect implementation for Cali in February.

[71RS/SS396]

This guy did a CA legal LT1 swap. http://www.nastyz28.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188458 The legal smog requirements are in the thread, but my understanding is that you have to have the complete working evap, cats....etc to get the cert. I think you could get close to your 550 hp goal with a maggie blower and still meet emissions, the oems do it, why can't you.

[BonzoHansen]

BAM! http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/e-rod-lsa.html

or this: http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/e-rod-ls3.html


sell what you have to recoup some of the money. when you start trying to get all the emissions pars together you are gonna get nickle & dimed to high heaven.

[71RS/SS396]

BAM! http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/e-rod-lsa.html

or this: http://www.chevrolet.com/performance/crate-engines/e-rod-ls3.html


sell what you have to recoup some of the money. when you start trying to get all the emissions pars together you are gonna get nickle & dimed to high heaven.

Good find Bonzo! I wasn't aware that an LSA E-rod was available.
I honestly think this will be the the easiest and cheapest solution for the op to obtain his goals but it does come with it's own set of hurdles regarding packaging.
I've done an e-rod swap, you have to use everything that comes with the installation kit ( which you have to buy separately). The kit includes exhaust manifolds, cats and head pipes, evap canister, air filter...etc. Packaging the manifolds, cats, and head pipes can be difficult. The ecu is locked from tuning which means no mods at all, not even headers. I believe you have to have a sealed cap on the fuel tank for CA emissions so if your tank won't accept one that's another expense. I would check with your local smog referee and discuss your plans before I spent a dime. Here's the installation kit in this link http://www.crateenginedepot.com/E-Rod-LSA-Crate-Engine-Kit-for-Manual-Trans-19257460-P17459C556.aspx

[hessdawg]

I am fortunate to live in a state that has no enforced emissions requirements.

One thing I don't understand is... Why don't governing bodies just have a standard that dictates what levels are allowed for CO, CO2, and whatever else and then as long as your car passes the test, you are good to go? Why this mandate (in some cases) that original emissions equipment from the 70s and 80s be kept in place when the newer engines are much cleaner out of the box?

That's the really sad part. If ca really cared about air quality they would say meet this standard and you're good to go. But I feel they are more about the business of keeping themselves employed.
I have a 78 ta with a 70 olds 455, I have upgraded it with sequential fuel and timing control. It will 100x cleaner then the original engine but because it doesn't have all the original equipment it will fail
Just doesn't make since

[bs46488]

I'm not in the military, but this is exactly why I sold my 2001 Mustang and got a pre-1975 car. The emissions requirements in california are too restrictive for any modifications.

[badazz81z28]

Well I was bored and did some research on Evap systems. That doesn't seem to complicated...can I make a system that's all mechanical, seems some have computer controlled solenoids?

[Finch]

Rob,

If your car is staying registered in AK, how are they inforcing this new law locally? Is the base requiring a local inspection be done?

[Project92rs]

Well I was bored and did some research on Evap systems. That doesn't seem to complicated...can I make a system that's all mechanical, seems some have computer controlled solenoids?

Remember to do your research relative to CA law. I know for a 3rd Gen Camaro to swap to a LS1 from a 2002 Camaro you have to swap the fuel system, dash, and all electronics to be legal. Building your own evap and emissions systems might still not pass the referee.

[badazz81z28]

Rob,

If your car is staying registered in AK, how are they inforcing this new law locally? Is the base requiring a local inspection be done?

Brian,
There are new additions to the AFI for environmental protection. They are enforcing compliance with local I/M despite state of registration. On a positive note, the environmental guy on base put out a PPT show stating if repairs exceed $650, I may be able to get an exemption. Once the holidays are over I can get some more info on this.

V/R Rob

[reedld]

Rob, I'd jump on nastyz28... In the high tech retro section....look up a guy named Tom, user name sbca96. He's done the smog legal LT swap in his 78 camaro. He's really knowledgable with the Cali laws..he may be able to give you some tips as you get into the "fix" with your ride. Good luck!

[badazz81z28]

Rob, I'd jump on nastyz28... In the high tech retro section....look up a guy named Tom, user name sbca96. He's done the smog legal LT swap in his 78 camaro. He's really knowledgable with the Cali laws..he may be able to give you some tips as you get into the "fix" with your ride. Good luck!


I did take a look at his thread. Unfortunately despite what he did, it doesn't help me any. I know I could grab an stock OEM engine (LT1/LS1 etc), and swap it in along with all the emissions and pass. The problem is I already have a $$$/High Hp engine in my car and I don't want a wimpy 290hp LT1 to replace it. The simple answer is, I really do just need a "smog" exempt year vehicle.