Purpose Built Cars

[Smittys]

Purpose built cars. What defines a purpose built car? I think this phrase is abused and used out of text. First off let me say every car, truck or street rod we build is purpose built. So if anyone is looking for this service I am your guy!!!

When we start to plan a project with our customer’s one of the first things we do is make a plan for the build and what is the purpose of the vehicle.

Some cars are simple drivers we recreate a car they had when they were younger. We usually update brakes and driveline to make the car safer and more reliable.

Some cars are built to be all out show cars. The sole purpose is to win trophies and look pretty.

Some cars are built to be a pro-touring style car that are just modern muscle cars.

Some pro-touring cars are built to be driven and maybe run an occasional autocross. This is where we start to address concerns and safety. How big of brakes, Hp, frame connectors, roll bar and harnesses and so on.

Then there are the cars that the guy wants to go run hard and fast. We make a plan. It usually includes a chrome moly roll cage with front down bars, frame connectors, fully welded sub-frames reinforced rear frame rails and lots of welding of the body add drive shaft loops. We then move the monster engine back add killer brakes modify the suspension with the best components we can get. Properly mount the seats with 5 point harnesses decide if it needs a fire system. Then we add all the creature comforts they desire ac, audio, nav, leather and whatever they want. In some cases these cars start out on a full tube chassis. If this is the meaning of the purpose that we built the car so be it. Making a customer safe and building a car equipped with all the proper safety equipment in it to minimize the chance of injury is what everyone is calling a “PURPOSE BUILT CAR”

Then I am dam proud of what we are doing!

Maybe we shouldn’t scrutinize these cars and should use them as the examples of safety.

[71RS/SS396]

I approve of this post :usa:

[Jim Nilsen]

Everyone needs a purpose built car!

Now obtaining it is a whole new purpose of its own.,lol.

[tazzz25906112]

Purpose built can be a good way of saying I have everything I need to have a blast and run an extra measure of safety... Nothing replaces common sense and driving at your own pace,, but it's sure nice to see these cars evolve as does our sector of the sport.....

These cars should be Celebrated indeed Chris,, and BTW I simply call them """awesome cars""" that are generally built by extremely creative enthusiasts & shops like yours...

[RobNoLimit]

I'm with Chris on this one. And, I may be one of the biggest instigators of this topic. I agree 100% that ALL hot rods (and by that I mean anything with wheels that has been modified in any way) are purpose built. We all have different goals, and therefore, different "purposes" for our cars (and by 'cars' I mean anything with wheels). Now, the topic seams to be focused on cars that are built to be superior on an auto-x or road coarse, and that these are in some way "unfare" to others who have not built with that purpose.
So, I'll tell ya a little story. It took me a few years to convince Goodguys to add a truck class. Truck guys were not too willing to go out and run in the Street machine class and take a beating, so, no trucks were running (OK, a few). Finally, we got a truck class. I ran out to the shop and built the "Silver Bullit" F-100. This was a simple street build. A No Limit Chassis (right off the rack, no changes), a 351W and 5 speed, and a steel body. A normal super fun truck. So, we dominated the truck class for two years. In 2010 I won an OUSCI invite and went. What a fantsastic event. I had a blast! - But, I have very little "Big Track" experience. Pulling onto the back straight at Spring Mountain is an eye opener for sure. The truck topped out around 145, just no more torque to push all the air around that cab. But I did have some time to look around. I'm in an old thin metal shell. No cage. No fire system. Ok, I've got 5 point harnesses, and the are connected through to the chassis, but damn, this is a little scary. I have a wife and kid depending on me to provide for them. Eyes are WIDE open now.
Now, with GoodGuys, there were a few of us around the country (Donny) domiating our class at will, and thats really not good for the show in general. So, GoodGuys created the "Pro" class. (previously the 'Vendor" class). My fun in the Truck class was over. BTW, I totally agree with what GoodGuys did, they had to. So, add it up. now I have to compete against guys like Finch, Tucker, Voelkel, Burman....... and I'd like to go back to events like RTTC and Optima, but I want to be faster AND safer. My solution was to sell the Bullit and build a new truck. The Hellboy. I started by reading the rules of these events. Then I spent a lot of time researching components and working out geometry. Then I started building. Is it more 'auto-x" than touring truck? Yes. But it is street legal, has heated seats (no side windows) radio, wipers, and all lights and signals. Until Columbus '13 the body was all steel, and all the glass was real glass. The chassis is not chromoly (I wish it was) It's full of dynamat and insulation. Hardly a race car. But because it has "different" types of compents than many builds, I caught a lot of flack about it being "purpose built" OK, of course it is. They are all.
What did it get me? I went back to Optima in '12 and finished 15th (even though I totaly blew the auto-x), and felt a lot safer doing it. I even ran down a Lambo on the road course. in 2012 I won the GoodGuys pro truck championship, and in 2013 I won the Pro Championship over-all. Thats what I set out to do. I also set my sights on the top dogs out there. Maier, Pozzi, Hobaugh, Popp...... I had a list of 10 or so. My goal was to beat them at least once, and I have been able to check them all off one by one. I don't think I can beat them every time, but I did it at least once. Thats puts me up even with them, but not better. I pretty proud of that, but i have a long way to go. Mike Maier has drivin the truck a few times and is always a second or so faster than me in it. I have a lot to learn, but, at least I can be competetive in the Pro class, where I wanted to be.
Build YOUR car the way YOU want it. For the Purpose YOU choose. Some of us will build to show what we can do, what our parts are capable of, and to set the standard. YOU DON't HAVE to do that, if you don't want to. Run in your class, run against you own goals. Be safe and have fun.
GoodGuys has now added a line to rule #20 that now states ".... no race cars or purpose built vehicles. ....." Who will decide where the line is on this one? Am I now outlawed? Would that include every mini-tubbed Camaro with 315's out back, or every car with more that 500 hp? Maybe it's the Carbon Fiber, or the roll bars. Perhaps good seats are taking it too far, then how about big brakes? Is a Factory 5 coupe or Cobra "purpose built"?
As for the Hellboy, after Del Mar and the hood incident, I will be installing hood pins and a lexan winshied.(again, for safety) I am not a fan of the glass shower. Will that be too far? Would I be better off with flying glass shards in an accident? I hope to be back out having fun and competing with everyone out there. We love these type of events and hope to keep supporting them.
OK, I've spent at least $.03 here. Hope I didn't offend anyone. Have Merry Christmas and a great new years. - now, if the last part offends you, Merry Christmas again.

[James OLC]

Great post Rob - if having proper safety equipment to the level that YOU feel safe makes a car "purpose built" then everyone should have one. I certainly don't know where GG is going with their rule (but I do know and understand where it comes from) but regardless of the sanctioning body it's wrong to penalize someone for overbuilding for safety.
Have a Safe and Merry Christmas!

[Ron Sutton]

Great post Rob.

Merry Christmas all.

.

[71RS/SS396]

Rob,
Anyone that complains about your truck is just sour grapes imo.
You earned your results this year with the time spent in the seat and tuning on your truck.

[David Pozzi]

Rob, I'm pretty sure a non-DOT legal (Lexan) windshield will make your truck illegal for street use.

[RobNoLimit]

David, that may be the case. - technically. But, there are already a few top cars in GoodGuys running Lexan. How about them? If we were to get out the DMV or CHP rule book, I'm quite sure most, if not all of our cars would fail. Too low, too loud,... - BTW, any cage (not installed by the OEM) that obstructs the drivers view, in any way, is technically illegal in Ca. No doubt the Lexan is safer, so where do we draw the line? Does Lexan make it "purpose built"?

[TonyHuntimer]

87614
Purpose Built! :)

Tony Huntimer
TestCarDatabase

[tazzz25906112]

87614
Purpose Built! :)

Tony Huntimer
TestCarDatabase


Stunning!!!!

[Rod]

Sour grapes, sour grapes, sour grapes!!!! Ha ha ha, I will be the first one, if Rob handed me those keys I would beat Hell boy like a rented mule!, OK I have seen a little crying here and there about this purpose built crap, and all our cars are purpose built some with more accessories or less accessories how ever you want to look at it, and this will piss a few off but usually the ones whimpering are the ones losing and blaming the cars, get out and drive your cars, learn how to drive fast(go to a driving school) last year miss Pozzi draged me along to a driving school, yes the 11 time national champion was at a driving school still learning(if shes in school shouldn't we all) learn how to tune(tune, tune, tune) the top drivers tune there car before events and during events, i watched Rob MacGregor swap out the diff in his truck at scottsdale, and Mike Miaer rebuild his carb(twice the same weekend) along with mary adjusting her rack and pinion throw and rear springs, Matt Acala changed rear springs and sway bar, and many times the guy crying purpose built will change nothing and cry about losing, practice that driving at least once a month(yes really) I have driven my car for 3+ hours one direction to practice for 5 minutes and then travel 3+hours home and with that I will say, that 3 years ago I was around 3 seconds behind those top runners like Pozzi, miaer, macgregor, vokel, hougbaugh, 2 years ago I was 2 seconds behind and last year I was knocking on there doors, because they have taught me (some simply by watching them) there fast not just because of there car but because of there dedication to the sport build the car, tune the car, tune the driver, and practice,,,,I have never looked at my car as a handicap the car will only go as fast as I tell it to go, I have rode with many drivers that have cars with all the best bells and whistles and are still slow because of there driving and have pointed out things that have dropped seconds off there times, we are the most purpose built part of our cars,,,,,,this is my favorite saying and its true, true true....... Any one can drive a fast car, not everyone can drive a car fast

[mmosley]

GoodGuys has now added a line to rule #20 that now states ".... no race cars or purpose built vehicles. ....." Who will decide where the line is on this one? Am I now outlawed?
Naw... they are just trying to keep John Sandberg from showing up again:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/events/1003phr_goodguys_3rd_peak_chicagoland_nationals/photo_26.html

[David Pozzi]

Rob,
If Lexan is safer, why don't the auto manufacturers use it?
It looks like Goodguys has allowed mods beyond their stated rules as long as the body somewhat resembles something that was a street car, so very heavily modified/lightened cars are the way to go now. The people with more conventional cars will be left behind.

[mmosley]

If Lexan is safer, why don't the auto manufacturers use it?

Raw materials is about 2x the cost. Standard Lexan or polycarbonate is also more susceptible to scratching.

[dontlifttoshift]

so where do we draw the line?

If your hot rod was sitting next to an M5 or CTS-V in your garage and you had to drive one of them cross country for no particular reason would you still pick the hot rod? Keep in mind, there is no glory at the end of the trip, no one will know you drove it anywhere, there is not a photoshoot at the end, no trophies, no facebook update, nothing.......you just went to your destination. If you honestly answer yes then who gives a flying fook what anyone else thinks?

[GrabberGT]

Naw... they are just trying to keep John Sandberg from showing up again:
http://www.popularhotrodding.com/events/1003phr_goodguys_3rd_peak_chicagoland_nationals/photo_26.html

Im not sure what your point is but the description posted of his car sounds just like most of ours. Change a couple brand names and it could be used as template for just about any car on this forum. Not what I would consider "purpose built". This sounds like my car which still has a full interior with rear seat and subwoofer removed during competition GG definitely needs to define this term.

[mmosley]

John's car is a true "purpose built" machine for SCCA Solo II competition in the C/prepared class. Car has wide 5 hubs, 16" slicks, and suspension built for competition. This car does not even pretend to be a street car. He showed up at the GG event in Chicago and ran "exhibition" since he had slicks. He did not push the car at all and took it easy and no other car that weekend was close. Of course he had slicks... that was what the car's suspension was designed for. This is the type car they are trying to exclude. But yes, definition is fuzzy, where one draws the line is subjective. I think the 200 treadwear tire and registered as a motor vehicle that is legal for street use is good enough for a "level" playing field. I do like that they have a separate "Pro" or "vendor" class.

[Rod]

Of course he had slicks...

slicks are worth about 3 seconds off your time on average, many of us swap to slicks on for fun runs at the end of the day at our local autocross practices and and my own car without changing any thing but the tires is always 3+ seconds faster....just a side note

[bikefreak600]

this is a great topic. people need to keep in mind how boring it would be to watch stock camaro's, mustangs, & other terrible handling vehicles drive around a coarse. this sport needs these high end cars, watching performance built cars is what makes this sport attractive. now everyone could build a stock chassy car, it would be fun until people start dying. safety equipment should be encouraged, not considered an advantage.

they should make 2 classes for racing, 1 class extreme, unlimited modifications, ( saftey equipment mandatory). another class stock chassy, no major altercations to the frame, body ( no major modifications changing the structural design, other than cosmetic).

so if your hotrod has any of the following.. aftermarket chassis, 18 pt roll cage, wide body, fuel cell that is not stock replacement fit, a 1967 body retro fitted onto a newer chassy etc (purpose built cars will be in this class) you would compete in the extreme class

if you have a 69 camaro with 4pt roll cage, bolt in aftermarket suspension, bigger wheels etc any mods that will bolt on the stock chassy, you would compete in the stock chassy class.

[GrabberGT]

John's car is a true "purpose built" machine for SCCA Solo II competition in the C/prepared class. Car has wide 5 hubs, 16" slicks, and suspension built for competition. This car does not even pretend to be a street car. He showed up at the GG event in Chicago and ran "exhibition" since he had slicks. He did not push the car at all and took it easy and no other car that weekend was close. Of course he had slicks... that was what the car's suspension was designed for. This is the type car they are trying to exclude. But yes, definition is fuzzy, where one draws the line is subjective. I think the 200 treadwear tire and registered as a motor vehicle that is legal for street use is good enough for a "level" playing field. I do like that they have a separate "Pro" or "vendor" class.

If we are talking CP in the same fashion as say Brian Hobaughs CP Camaro. Then yes I can see that. Purpose Built. Muffler in the back seat area and all. LOL. (Love the car Brian. Please dont be offended)

I've used the term purpose built before and even went as far as to tell Rob his truck "Hellboy" looked to nice for a race truck. (If you havent seen it in person you really must. Lots of nice touches.) Yes I think its purpose built to be "Raced" with all the safety requirements that go along with it. Myself, I have built my car to be driven first and raced second. I must admit though that it leans more towards race with every season. Eventually, I may have to make the decision to gut the car and make it a racecar if I wish to be competitive. But the way I see it, I've got a long way to go as a driver before I get there. Who knows. Maybe thats what Goodguys and perhaps even the sponsors are trying to avoid. They would prefer everyone feel they have a chance to compete with off the shelf components. You dont need a fully race prepped vehicle to be competitive at their event.

[RobNoLimit]

Well, I for one would love the opportunity to run against John Sandberg's car. Just put 200 TW tires on it. - John, I'll even help you get some 18" wide-5 wheels built. BTW, I KNOW what I built, and I did build it to be right out there on the line. Somebody had to, that's how things move forward. I'm fine with the rules - if they are defined, and used evenly for everyone. The question here is "why do so many people consider 'purpose built' cars to be a bad thing?" That I don't get. The mods to fit a 315 tire in any car do NOT make it ride better, or do they make it any safer in the rain. The only benefit is performance (and looks) So, in many ways, it is fair to say that any car, that has had modifications -other than bolt on parts- that allow a larger tire than what was capable of fitting in the OE platform, has been purpose built. No mini tubs, no flares, no fender-less roadsters... My question is where do you draw the line? Lic., reg. ins. and 200 tw seam OK to me.

[bret]

I haven't said much about all this because everyone else (especially Rob) seems to be right on target.

I have nothing for or against full chassis "special built" cars...except that they are an expensive way to go racing (if you pay someone to build it) I encouraged a 3000 minimum weight rule and some sort of maximum front tire rule. Both rules seem to negate any advantage of a full chassis car but don't outlaw them.

Me...I'll run against an F1car just to see how I stack up. I learn a lot more from second place than from first.

[Ron Sutton]

I haven't said much about all this because everyone else (especially Rob) seems to be right on target.

I have nothing for or against full chassis "special built" cars...except that they are an expensive way to go racing (if you pay someone to build it) I encouraged a 3000 minimum weight rule and some sort of maximum front tire rule. Both rules seem to negate any advantage of a full chassis car but don't outlaw them.

Me...I'll run against an F1car just to see how I stack up. I learn a lot more from second place than from first.

Love it!

Run whacha brung & hope you brung enough. If you don't win, learn & progress. :)


.

[struck by Lightning]

Personally, I love the "purpose built" cars/trucks and enjoy the competition. It motivates me to become a better driver while fighting the law of physics in an unconventional vehicle.

Do I want to beat Rob's truck......heck yes, will I do it in my current truck.....nope, but I'm okay with that because I'm having a great time trying to do so and respect what Rob has achieved in his truck. My satisfaction is being competitive and sometimes beating the more conventional vehicles. I'm not the fastest but I'm not the slowest either.

I agree with Ron......Run whacha brung & hope you brung enough. It's all good!
.

[1966longroof]

I haven't said much about all this because everyone else (especially Rob) seems to be right on target.

I have nothing for or against full chassis "special built" cars...except that they are an expensive way to go racing (if you pay someone to build it) I encouraged a 3000 minimum weight rule and some sort of maximum front tire rule. Both rules seem to negate any advantage of a full chassis car but don't outlaw them.

Me...I'll run against an F1car just to see how I stack up. I learn a lot more from second place than from first.

I gotta agree with Bret. Some years back.....I had an Open Wheel Modified (Pavement), and toured with a series. Our equalizer was the tire and weight rule, (also had an ignition rule, but that was for Policeing Traction Control). After that...the gloves were off. It worked out great. Rookies ran with the Veteran drivers.

[dontlifttoshift]

no fender-less roadsters...

FTF!! I didn't know you could build them with fenders. :D

[Matt@BOS]

I don't have a problem with many of the purpose built cars around here. The majority of them drive surprisingly well on the street. Rob's truck is probably more comfortable than my Camaro provided it isn't cold or raining and in need of side windows.

The more more a car is built toward a specific purpose, the more often it is going to need to be tuned to each specific environment in order to be competitive. In these instances the knowledge base of setup and skill behind the wheel is what is making certain cars and drivers competitive. More over, to me, it seems that the most important factor in what separates these cars from others isn't tube frames or subframes, but the ease and range of adjustments within their suspensions.

Matt

[Ron Sutton]

I don't have a problem with many of the purpose built cars around here. The majority of them drive surprisingly well on the street. Rob's truck is probably more comfortable than my Camaro provided it isn't cold or raining and in need of side windows.

The more more a car is built toward a specific purpose, the more often it is going to need to be tuned to each specific environment in order to be competitive. In these instances the knowledge base of setup and skill behind the wheel is what is making certain cars and drivers competitive. More over, to me, it seems that the most important factor in what separates these cars from others isn't tube frames or subframes, but the ease and range of adjustments within their suspensions.

Matt

Yup !

[71RS/SS396]

I don't have a problem with many of the purpose built cars around here. The majority of them drive surprisingly well on the street. Rob's truck is probably more comfortable than my Camaro provided it isn't cold or raining and in need of side windows.

The more more a car is built toward a specific purpose, the more often it is going to need to be tuned to each specific environment in order to be competitive. In these instances the knowledge base of setup and skill behind the wheel is what is making certain cars and drivers competitive. More over, to me, it seems that the most important factor in what separates these cars from others isn't tube frames or subframes, but the ease and range of adjustments within their suspensions.

Matt

Well put Matt. I think everyone that is either starting out at these events, or sitting back and pondering getting involved thinks that they either need to spend big bucks on parts to be competitive, or they can't be competitive because they can't afford the parts. I went through this and quickly realized that driver instruction made the biggest improvement of all. Those expensive parts did little to make me faster without knowing how to drive the car and what it needed to make it better.

[Todd in Vancouver]

...

[ohsolow]

Ok I'll put some of this to rest, at GG we 'll be determining purpose built, that said it is for the guy who buys an old cup road coarse car, the kit car guys with that weird stuff they come up with. As long as you build your whatever and it looks and matches what you state in your registration ( Rob your on a razor blade) I have a phone that we can google on so don't build a 75 inch wheel base 1st gen. Camaro. Lexan windows ok as long as you can get pass your state registration. Bring on them bad azz light weight carbon fiber, alum ., fiberglass, Lexan , full roll cage fire breathing Outlaw Autocross cars / trucks. Just make sure your plated insured plate matches registration to that you are racing . Don't over think the purpose built thing .

[RobNoLimit]

Well you know what they say, "if you ain't livin on the edge your takin too much space".

[ohsolow]

Don't get me wrong Rob I think it's awesome! you never know how far you can go unless you try. There's a lot of very un creative folks in this sport/hobby don't know if it's lack of skill or fear of commitment

[RobNoLimit]

OK, Trent, according to the new GoodGuys rules, is the truck legal for 2014? and, If I put a Lexan winshield in it, does that change things? BTW, I get what GoodGuys is trying to do, and I agree with it. I just don't want to be left out in the cold. Thanks.

[CA B4C]

Hey Rob,

The requirements for a (California registered vehicle) windshield are found here ...

http://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/rules-regulations/administration/fmcsr/fmcsrruletext.aspx?reg=571.205

from what I can determine, the windshield has to have an AS1 rating ... not sure if Lexan would meet that requirement.