lsx really all that great?

[71maroesteban]

Almost every person that has a old hot rod at my auto school says the lsx is the greatest engine out their and beats the 350 sbc but does it really? I mean I understand the engineering behind the lsx 6 bolt main efi good heads but after about a 10 year run chevy has all ready said the ls3 was the last of the ls engine of family but the sbc 350 had been in use for about 50 years so to all that say the lsx is more reliable you can really say that because it's a fairly new engine as opposed to its sbc counter part which has proved a number of times to be not only a good powerhouse but a engine good for 400 thousand miles and up and as for mileage it's not just engine a mildly built 350 with good rear gears and a overdrive will deliver good numbers as well so is it just people jumping on the bandwagon because they must have the next thing? And also of course I understand the weight difference but for the price is it really worth it I've seen people spend a ton to just do a cam swap while others build a whole motor for much less and has more power

[dontlifttoshift]

Yes.

[TheJDMan]

First, let me say I'm running a 1st gen SBC and I have no immediate plans to swap in an LS engine. However, all the information I have read indicates the LS platform can build more power with less modification while maintaining good drivability. I suspect a big part of this power potential is due to the use of EFI and more efficient intake and exhaust port design. My biggest objection to an LS swap is the nightmare wiring that I simply am not willing to deal with. On the other hand, due in part to the popularity of the LS swaps, there are some real bargins on SBC engines and parts now.

[andrewb70]

Yes.

+1

Andrew

[Z06vet]

I wont build anything without using an lsx motor. After having them in everything I own, I'd just end up disappointed and not want to drive it. The old small blocks are great motors, and there are plenty making more power than my LS1. Same goes for a carburater, I just cant go back to that. If running an automatic, having the computer control both the motor & trans in tandem provides for a much smoother, better responding package. I admit I'm a little biased...

[71maroesteban]

It's just because I drove a 70 nova with an ls1 4l80 and it just didn't feel like a muscle car felt very slow and weak compared to a sbc car I can't ever see myself swapping one especially for the entry price plus upgrades to the motor upgrades to the fuel system motor mounts etc

[Schwartz Performance]

LS engines were in production for 16 years not 10.
What happened from the gen 1 SBC to gen 2? Minor changes.. How long did that last? 1992-1997 then GM got their sh** together and designed the LS.
Gen 1 SBCs are great, and cheap, but the efficiency isn't as great. So, to fix that we put aftermarket heads, intakes, etc on them. What was the highest factory HP offered by an SBC before the LS? Not much.

I have a 400 SBC in my 82 Trans Am and I love the sound of it. Doesn't sound like any LS. But, it's carbureted, the gasket surfaces aren't as precise, it gets terrible fuel mileage.. Etc. but it was a $3500 500hp build.

Not sure why I'm wasting time with this post.. YES LSX ARE THAT GREAT!
:)

-Dale

[ChevelleNV]

Well when you can go get a junkyard LS and stick twin turbos on it and make 1000+ HP without blowing it up after 60+ pulls on the dyno.... I'm sold, you could never do that with a gen 1 SBC

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1109_stock_gm_ls_engine_big_bang_theory/

[andrewb70]

It's just because I drove a 70 nova with an ls1 4l80 and it just didn't feel like a muscle car felt very slow and weak compared to a sbc car I can't ever see myself swapping one especially for the entry price plus upgrades to the motor upgrades to the fuel system motor mounts etc

A stock LS1 was rated at 305HP max, which is about 270 RWHP. I went from a 500RWHP big block 502 to a 6.2L Lsx engine with 420 RWHP and I would never go back. I get 20 mpg and I can drive my car anywhere.

Andrew

[dontlifttoshift]

It's just because I drove a 70 nova with an ls1 4l80 and it just didn't feel like a muscle car felt very slow and weak compared to a sbc car I can't ever see myself swapping one especially for the entry price plus upgrades to the motor upgrades to the fuel system motor mounts etc

Did it have a 3:08 gear in it?

One of the magazines did a study and found that nearly 80% of SBC powered cars were slow and weak, in contrast only 47% of LSX powered cars were slow and weak.

So there it is, you read it on the internet. I am also a French model.

Au revoir!

[XLexusTech]

I say no and here is my thought.
If your targeting 1000 or less hp... an Alum block ls3 will do just fine..
If your targeting + 1000 a 5.3 and some boost will do just fine for half the money.

[71maroesteban]

All great points guys and I don't mean to offend anyone with this thread just wanted to see what you all think to me a sbc is a great engine one that will be with my car for a while that being said once I finish school I would love to build to own lsx with high hp but still learning up on how to build them that's why I love these forums all these guys that build these things and make them run like nothing!

[GBNL]

350 dollar 5.3 engine here , added better heads and intake with a pt88/47 on 16 pounds = 837hp on a mustang dyno loaded to 4500 pounds. Cant go wrong with a ls engine
http://youtu.be/ijWq2vAtOKQ

[Todd in Vancouver]

+1

Andrew

And a +1 again

Also running a SBC and it's a pretty good one at just under 500hp but I'm already planning V2 for my build. But like they say why settle for 500 when I can so easily have 700, 800 or 900hp, MooHaHaHa!

[shortrack]

Have the LS people solved their starve for oil blow up under hard cornering issues yet? Last I heard your only choice was to go to a GM dry sump system and how much is that?

[Damn True]

So nobody tracks an LS car w/o a dry sump? Fascinating.

[LS1-IROC]

If LS swaps cost twice as much as they currently do, they would still be worth it. Once you come to the dark side you'll never want anything to do with a gen 1 sbc ever again. My car makes 450rwhp and still pulls down 29mpg on the highway with a t56 and 4:10s.

[rickpaw]

Yes it was worth it. I swapped out a built Pontiac 400 to a junkyard 5.3 and never looked back.


My biggest objection to an LS swap is the nightmare wiring that I simply am not willing to deal with. On the other hand, due in part to the popularity of the LS swaps, there are some real bargins on SBC engines and parts now.

If you use one of the stand alone harness, there are only a few connections you need to make (ground/constant power/ignition power). Everything else is plug and play.

[Typhoon1015]

Ive heard that the LSX was touched by god himself.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/10/ls1god3-1.jpg

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/10/almightyLS1-1.jpg

[shortrack]

So nobody tracks an LS car w/o a dry sump? Fascinating.

I remember Ron S saying they lost 5 LS's at one event alone due to oil starvation including his in his Mustang and he went on to say the Vette GM dry sump was the only real cure. I guess you missed that. Fascinating. I was wondering what the current status of that situation was.

[SShep71]

Just as SBC had their oiling problems LS had theirs, and just as SBC guys got further into it with trap doors and baffling in their pans, LS did the same thing. Almost every aspect of the LS is an improvement of the SBC. The machined tolerances themselves are WAY more precise than a SBC. The metal composition of the parts and the manufacturing that goes into them are light years ahead. The volumetric efficiency of the intake and exhaust system is a massive increase. The ease of assembly is better, and more reliable. The ONE downside that I can possibly see is that doing cam changes can be a PITA because of the way that the head covers the lifters, HOWEVER! If you are using the stock lifter trays there is no reason to fret as the lifter trays will assist you.

[uxojerry]

In two years, will anyone be talking about LS engines with Gen 5 crate motors available? I think the LSX platform is great, if you go after market block capable of a large bore, and 6 bolt heads. Contrary to popular belief, the BBC and SBC are alive and well. Look at any racing forum and you will get a clear picture of how an LSX motor compares to other platforms. It is a more popular than a Ford Modular but much less popular than SBC and BBC.

If I was building an FI motor, I would probably go LSX. For an NA build, I would not.

[CarlC]

I remember Ron S saying they lost 5 LS's at one event alone due to oil starvation including his in his Mustang and he went on to say the Vette GM dry sump was the only real cure. I guess you missed that. Fascinating. I was wondering what the current status of that situation was.

It depends on how much tire and the type of driving.

I've run mine since 2008 at more road coarse events than I can remember with no problems. However, the car has Michelin PSS tires, ATS wet sump pan, and a few internal modifications to facilitate oil drainback.

A slick may, under some conditions, mandate a dry sump. That would hold true for any engine.

As to the OP's question, if the SBC had an overall package that is comparable to the LS series of engines then GM would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to develop them.

As for the 50 year production run, the last 15-20 years were nothing to wave the GM flag about.

[WS6]

Yes, they are that good. Sure, other engines can be built to make power and be great engines. No one can possibly deny that fact, but it also doesn't take away from how good of a motor the LSx platform is either. They are an excellent choice.

[shortrack]

It depends on how much tire and the type of driving.

I've run mine since 2008 at more road coarse events than I can remember with no problems. However, the car has Michelin PSS tires, ATS wet sump pan, and a few internal modifications to facilitate oil drainback.

A slick may, under some conditions, mandate a dry sump. That would hold true for any engine.

As to the OP's question, if the SBC had an overall package that is comparable to the LS series of engines then GM would not have invested hundreds of millions of dollars to develop them.

As for the 50 year production run, the last 15-20 years were nothing to wave the GM flag about.

In the event that Ron was talking about there were no slicks allowed.

Hey, make no mistake I wouldnt mind having one but to hear people talk around here you'd think you just yank your old school sbc, "toss in" a LS, hook up a couple of wires and away you go. What could be easier? The TPI in my Iroc is pizzing me off so I thought Id quickly just throw in an LQ4 in front of the stock 5spd and get the car back on the road while Im slugging away on the Chevelle. So I checked out TGO and Wow not even close to a drop in especially if you want the A/C , cruise and everything to work. Thats the "not great'' part about LSs

[novaderrik]

Improved racing claims to have fixed most of the oiling issues with the stock wet sump LS oil pans- a $200 baffle seems like a bargain if it saves an engine. you can also add an accusump for some extra insurance..

but even after 50+ years of refinement and use in every race series ever thought up, stock gen 1 small blocks don't really hold up all that well in road racing, either... they don't have a stellar reputation in the Chumpcar and 24 Hours of LeMons racing series for holding up for entire races without baffled pans and accusumps.

having been inside a few LS engines and looking at them, they are works of art... even the worst heads ever put on them have a 15 degree valve angle- which is what the best gen 1 full race heads had- and the ports are HUGE and just beautiful to look at.

regarding cost: i picked up an aluminum 5.3 out of an '09 Suburban that had 340,000 miles on it for $100... it was replaced because it had a slight tick when cold that went away when it got warm... it looked damn near brand new inside with crosshatch still visible on the cylinders, and came with the stock LS6 heads.. the plan is to clean it up, throw an LS9 cam and lifters in it, throw it back together, and put it in my 86 Camaro with an Edelbrock carb intake and MSD ignition control... my total cost by the time the car is in the car and running will be under $1500 and i'll have an all aluminum 400+hp engine that should have the street manners of a stock engine and get awesome fuel economy..

[novaderrik]

and the LS engine isn't dead yet- the new gen 5 engines are refinements of the LS architecture with direct injection and a few other improvements... it's actually more evolutionary than revolutionary, and GM is working on easy to install crate motors to put in whatever you want.. give it a few years, and they will be cheap in junkyards and the parts needed to swap them into older cars will be figured out..

[LS1NOVA]

Yes

[shortrack]

and i'll have an all aluminum 400+hp engine that should have the street manners of a stock engine and get awesome fuel economy..

wouldnt your fuel eco go out the window without the fuel injection?

[Ron Sutton]

I don't have a dog in this hunt yet, so I take a broader view. I'll outline my viewpoints of pros & cons and maybe that clarifies things better.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The SBC is older technology. The 23° valve angle & port shape haven't changed much since 1955 ... almost 60 years. The heads flow less air than modern designs because the port shape was designed for packaging, not power. The low intake port goes up over a hump, then makes a sharp turn down into the valve. We can make them flow a little more without enlarging the port ... but to make them flow significantly better, we have to run bigger ports. (This is true of all heads) That's where you see "runner sizes" in CC's come into play ... stock in the 135-160cc range ... with larger ports measuring from 180-290cc in volume.

Cylinder port basics:
When you make any port flow more ... by changing its shape, angle, contours, surface, etc ... without increasing the port cross section area (height and/or width) ... you are increasing velocity. When you make any port flow more ... by increasing its cross section area (height and/or width of the port) ... you are reducing velocity. When we build more power in the SBC platform, it's harder to achieve the same levels of fuel efficiency as the LS partly because of this.

Yes, for big bucks you can buy aftermarket race only heads & intake with large, raised ports & valve angles from 9° to 18° to achieve "some" of what is built into the LS. Most of these head & intake combos start around $5000 & go up. Without going to aftermarket high port/low valve angle race heads, you can still build great power in a standard SBC platform. Racers & Hot Rodders have been doing so for ... well ... almost 60 years.

The SBC is the best supported engine platform of all time, with a gazillion fully developed parts from manufacturers. Parts are inexpensive, plentiful & 99% of engine shops know how to build them. Factory aluminum blocks are not plentiful, so aftermarket versions are very expensive. Factory iron blocks are good for 400hp in thin cast versions ... 600hp in thick cast versions. Aftermarket iron blocks to handle 700-1000+hp are available from Dart, RHS & World products

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LS is modern technology. The cylinder head port, valve angle & chamber design are right out of modern race technology. The heads flow more air not because the port is bigger ... which would lose some velocity if it was ... but because the port is raised significantly enough to have a straighter entry to the back side of the valve. The valve train design, internal water cooling, firing order & block design are all improved over the older SBC design.

Basically, every solution that racers & engineers came up with over the years racing the SBC went into the design of the LS.

This is part of why these engines make more power ... easily ... and still achieve good fuel mileage. The production LS aluminum block is very durable well into the 600+ hp range. The iron block can handle more & the LSX & RHS iron blocks are solid platforms to build 800-1200hp.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As with any engine platform, the fuel & timing curves are key to optimizing power & fuel efficiency. Modern technology has given us options & improvements for how we achieve this.

Obviously SBC's were designed with a distributor to "distribute" the spark. The challenge with weights & springs ... is the timing curve is linear ... and that's not optimum for power or fuel efficiency. We can tune on the advance curve with weights & springs to find the best compromise ... add on electronic band aids ... replace it with an electronic controlled advance unit ... or change it out altogether to a fully computerized ignition, which can be tuned to exactly what the engine needs for optimum power & fuel efficiency. As we know LS engines start with a fully computerized ignition & can't go backwards. Why would you want to?

Carb or EFI ... are options with either engine platform. Some guys think carburetors are complicated. Some guys think EFI is complicated. Some of us are more familiar ... and therefore more comfortable with one or the other. In my early days as a young racer, when I found the key to power was fuel curve & ignition curve, I became a student of both until I mastered them. I can tune a carb as well as anyone. When I first entered a series running mechanical fuel injection, I had a steep learning curve, but got it mastered with time, learning, testing, etc.

With carbs & mechanical fuel injection, they naturally want to be linear, which is not optimum. So we're tuning & tweaking them in various ways to adjust the fuel curve "towards" optimum ... in sections of the rpm range & trying to best deal with changes in throttle position. But "close" & "good compromise" is about all these are capable of. With EFI ... if we have the correct flowing nozzles ... we can simply program any fuel curve we want. I mean ANY. We can make the A/F ratio exactly what the engine needs to be optimum at every rpm point & every condition.

With a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, we can tune either to make optimum power at a specific rpm ... equal to what is achievable with Electronic Fuel Injection. EFI doesn't make more peak power. But these mechanical fuel mixers are not capable of achieving optimum power at every point like a good EFI system. Simply put, we can achieve more power under the total operating curve with EFI ... and better mileage too.

If you're building from scratch ... buying a carb is much cheaper than an EFI system. If you're buying a used take out LS engine & keeping the factory injection, the cost is built in. You just need a good controller. If you're going for much bigger power than the stock EFI is capable of ... then you'll be buying parts or a complete new system. With an LS ... even if you go carbureted ... you still need an ignition controller.

The last points are more personal. Which fuel mixing option fits your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think engine choices are personal too ... and should take into account your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals. Some guys want to build an engine either themselves or through a shop. Others want to buy an engine ready to go. That's a personal choice.

If you're doing a low-mileage take out ... we're obviously talking LS platform ... you can get impressive power, technology, drivability, fuel mileage, etc at a bargain price. How much … is dependent on the gem you found.

When you doing an engine (or engine & trans) swap ... always take into account ALL you have to change ... headers, exhaust, engine & trans mounts, driveshaft mods, belts, plumbing, wiring, alternator, fuel tank, pumps, etc, etc ... and potentially firewall and/or trans tunnel mods. There is more time & money in a change over than most plan for.

When you're building a car from scratch that doesn't have an existing engine & peripheral parts ... you have a clean slate. So then it comes back to budget, personal preference, goals, etc.

If you're building a new engine from scratch, using all new parts, the LS platform can be more spendy than an SBC. Of course you can pour crazy amounts of money into any build. If you're re-building an engine using existing parts ... it depends on what you already own. You will get more power, drivability & fuel mileage … for your buck … with the LS platform.

If you're buying a "crate engine" or "ready to run engine" from one of the zillion sources ... there are good & bad choices in both traditional SBC & modern LS based platforms. You have GM, many reputable engine shops & a few corner cutting engine shops ... all offering lots of choices.

If you can get the power you want, in an affordable SBC package ... and this achieves your goals .... why not? On the other hand, if your power goals are higher, want optimum drivability & fuel mileage ... and can justify the changeover time & costs ... go that way. The future is LS engines. But today you have choices.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2011, I worked out a 400-410" SBC combination that made 730hp & 600# of torque with 23° heads with a 4-barrel. When we raced this in our NASCAR Modifieds with a 2-barrel (per rules) and it made 597hp & 510# torque. It took a lot testing & development. It's a great package, powerful, responsive & reliable. I run a lot of Dart stuff, because Richard Maskin is one of the sharpest engine builders I know of & his stuff is always top notch. This 400-410" uses 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle ... and an aggressive Comp Cams roller grind & valvetrain. But fuel mileage? Hmmmm ... not good.

I have scheduled development in 2014 of a mean street/track warrior LS based package & expect 820hp with "decent" fuel mileage. The LS7 port style & 12° valve angle heads we'll use have a similar cross section & flow 379cfm of air at .600" valve lift. The 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle flow 309cfm at .700". That, my friends, is a HUGE difference. We're able to achieve much more power with a much less aggressive, smaller cam profile ... and have a more drivable package with increased fuel mileage ... with that kind of cylinder head advantage.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As we all know ... just a short time after the original SBC came out ... hot rodders were putting it all kinds of different cars. They were bolting on parts to increase power. Engine shops were building them to awesome power for the time period. Manufacturers started developing parts to build higher power levels. The LS is the next "small block Chevy." It's like the son that paid attention and learned all that the father taught it. Now is its time. Dad can hang around ... and occasionally give "the boy" a run for his money ... but the writing is on the wall.

Personally ... I am nostalgic about people, places & style ... not technology. Talking to, or just remembering, good friends & loved ones is a feel good moment. Revisiting places I've been before brings back fond memories. I love the look & style of older cars. But if I was nostalgic for old technology ... I'd be on my 286 computer, on dial up connection or no internet at all, no smart phone, no gps, waiting at the pharmacy for my photos to process. But that's not me.

Some guys & gals want their hot rod to take them back to a simpler time where none of these high tech gadgets existed ... even if it's only for a few hours at a time. That's cool too. One thing I love about hot rodding is we all get to make our own choices, for our own reasons. Now you simply have more to choose from.

[nekkidhillbilly]

wouldnt your fuel eco go out the window without the fuel injection?

no thats a myth really. fi doesnt make that much better mpg over a carb. its a slight gain. there are more than one car with a carb pulling down 20 mpg. fi has benifits with cold start idle and all that too though.

[andrewb70]

no thats a myth really. fi doesnt make that much better mpg over a carb. its a slight gain. there are more than one car with a carb pulling down 20 mpg. fi has benifits with cold start idle and all that too though.

That's assuming that the carb is tuned perfectly for a given engine. It takes a great deal of carb tuning experience to get it right in all driving conditions. So while a carb can be made almost as efficient as EFI, few ever are.

On the other hand, EFI can be tuned very precisely, and has the ability to compensate for a tune that might not be perfect.

Andrew

[wiedemab]

I want a T-shirt that says

"Ron = Wisdom"

;)

Nice post

[bret]

The LS platform is about as close as you can get to a nuclear power pill [so far]. As for oiling issues...I've had several in cars that see some reasonably hard lateral G loadings, and have done nothing special to accommodate that with dry sumps, special baffles, etc. All good so far.

Yeah, I'm a LS disciple.

[ravege]

What I don't get with the LSx is the reasoning that goes into the swap, its all numbers and logic. Which is great! but begs the question, using that same reasoning for putting an LSx engine in your car, why on earth would you ever drive anything made in the 20th century? People will say you have to spend sooo much money to get a SBC to perform like an LSx... this coming from guys that are spending sooo much money to get their gen 1 camaro to handle like a gen 5 camaro. If the numbers argument works so well with the motor, it works equally well with the platform. Motors can be the heart and soul of a car, sad to think of the tri power GTOs that have an LSx because "the numbers were better", or someone can't afford to get their hands dirty doing routine maintenance the LSx engines don't need.

And for God's sake, if someone is so concerned about mpg, maybe the Prius is really the right car for that person.

[Zanie]

Dang! I thought this was going to be a boring thread of a bunch of people saying: "yes".

Funny and enlightening! Good read.....except for this blurb.

[uxojerry]

The SBC is not older technology it is older architecture. There is a lot more aftermarket R&D going into SBC and BBC versus LSX. After market LSX stuff has a premium attached to everything. Block, rotating assy, heads, etc. all cost more than either of the two other platforms, especially if you stick with American made components. Even the new SBC stuff with 4.5'' bore spacing is comparable to LSX after market pricing.

[PT Sportwagon]

While I have changed my mind about the whole LS in everything. I will keep my small block Buick in my wagon. May even change to a Big Block buick with earth stopping torque and only 30 lbs heavier than a SBC.

Tim

[ho428]

At some point the opening of the Hood becomes "Bleah"
Either from a non-detailed factory engine and compartment or an LS swap that's just a swap. It's like putting big rims on a classic car, just doesn't fit or look right if that's all that's done.

I've seen a few LS swaps that looked decent, especially when they get those ugly coil packs off the valve covers but IMO, there's more to a cool car than that, it's got to be a total package.
An LS in a 68 Camaro with stock suspension and brakes is a pretty bad swap regardless of rims and tires. But add DS, ST or whomever "cookie cutter" everything else and it's ok, may be passe' to some but at least it's still a total package.

[CamaroMike]

Have the LS people solved their starve for oil blow up under hard cornering issues yet? Last I heard your only choice was to go to a GM dry sump system and how much is that?

Havent seen that happen yet and have seen quite a few at the road course :hmm:

[Todd in Vancouver]

I want a T-shirt that says

"Ron = Wisdom"

;)



Nice post


Amen, that was really well thought out and pretty much sums it up. Put a fork in it this ones done!

[yellow1098Greg]

What I don't get with the LSx is the reasoning that goes into the swap, its all numbers and logic. Which is great! but begs the question, using that same reasoning for putting an LSx engine in your car, why on earth would you ever drive anything made in the 20th century? People will say you have to spend sooo much money to get a SBC to perform like an LSx... this coming from guys that are spending sooo much money to get their gen 1 camaro to handle like a gen 5 camaro. If the numbers argument works so well with the motor, it works equally well with the platform. Motors can be the heart and soul of a car, sad to think of the tri power GTOs that have an LSx because "the numbers were better", or someone can't afford to get their hands dirty doing routine maintenance the LSx engines don't need.

And for God's sake, if someone is so concerned about mpg, maybe the Prius is really the right car for that person.



This is a great point.....Is it just the outside shell of the older muscle that everyone loves? Or is it the sound, smell, feel, simplicity, the total package? I guess it's different for everyone. Both motors can be made to make tons of power but I don't think one is "better" than the other....I personally like those things about old motors and if I want new tech I would just buy a new corvette. A mix of both for functionality to compete against any car I can see, and what I personally want. But there is something about my old school big displacement power raping new computer geeks with there 70k plus cars and saying man you spent a lot of money and I'll still show you my tail lights while you smell my carb fumes!

[ho428]

This is a great point.....Is it just the outside shell of the older muscle that everyone loves? Or is it the sound, smell, feel, simplicity, the total package? I guess it's different for everyone. Both motors can be made to make tons of power but I don't think one is "better" than the other....I personally like those things about old motors and if I want new tech I would just buy a new corvette. A mix of both for functionality to compete against any car I can see, and what I personally want. But there is something about my old school big displacement power raping new computer geeks with there 70k plus cars and saying man you spent a lot of money and I'll still show you my tail lights while you smell my carb fumes!

Kinda turns things around huh?
I like running an engine most people don't know how to work on and some can't even recognize, but still puts out enough hp and tq to counter-rotate the planet. A Pontiac.
I get calls from LS guys that have an old car their working on either for themselves or someone else: How's this work? How's that work? Jet's? Power Valves? Air bleeds? Timing? Advance springs? WTF? Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my.

But, don't ask me what wiring harness works with an LS in a first Gen F, or what injectors size to use. Map sensor? Try Google maps, only computer map I know anything about.

[uxojerry]

Old School all the way!!! lol. I cant wait for my next build where I yank an LSX out of a classic muscle car, to drop in a built SBC or BBC! lol.

[1965gp]

Thought about putting a LS motor in my 70 GTO and stuck with a traditional pontiac. I couldn't get over how dated a 68 Camaro with an LT1/LT4 looks today (that was badass in 2000). In my mind when switching to modern power you are committing to continually upgrade to keep the car current.

Honestly- that is the attraction for some people- the evolution of their car. Not me- I have a lot of cars and really only want to build them once. 10 yrs from now my GTO will still look right as it sits today. If it had LS power and C6 wheels it would look like a dated project.

[shortrack]

Honestly- that is the attraction for some people- the evolution of their car. Not me- I have a lot of cars and really only want to build them once. 10 yrs from now my GTO will still look right as it sits today. If it had LS power and C6 wheels it would look like a dated project.


Never really thought of that but you're right. Saw a beautiful 57 Nomad pure show car last year at a show with a TPI in it. It would have been cutting edge in its day.

[1965gp]

Now if that was a TPI in an 80's Monte Carlo SS it would (at least in my mind) stand the test of time because it would be period correct. But, like you said in a 50's car- no matter how nice the car is now dated.

[shortrack]

Now if that was a TPI in an 80's Monte Carlo SS it would (at least in my mind) stand the test of time because it would be period correct. But, like you said in a 50's car- no matter how nice the car is now dated.

Yeah the car was beautiful, it was this pearl tangerine a foot thick with a tan leather interior, it looked like the car had never ever been driven but the uber polished TPI showed it was a give or take a 20 25 yr old build.

[uxojerry]

My car project has taken much longer to complete than I expected. Two years ago I bought an SBC 427, 8 stack efi, and 565hp. That power figure today is below par, as several SBC crate motors are available with 650hp. The car is not on the road yet and I am updating the top end for 700hp to try and stay current. Regardless of future trends, I am done at 700hp due to the limits of the drive train.

Two years ago, very few BBC NA pump gas builds were in the 800hp range. Now there are a lot of builds well above 900hp and 1000hp is easy to get, if desired. My point is in engine tech, nothing is static. Racing is still dominated by BBC/SBC and even SBF. LSX is making big headway in Forced induction and will probably be long lived as FI only, in the 1000hp range. Above 1000hp and most will turn to BBC.

Any LS motor with an LSX, RHS, ERL, or DART LS Next block will have some legs and the LS7, as an NA motor only. The rest of the LS engines are limited by bore size, and/or 4 bolt heads. GM must have designed these motors to become obsolete as they turned out new engines.

Wait until GM comes out with their new twin turbo LT(?) engine for the ZR1 follow-on. Will anybody want an LS9 based car? The safest course of action for a time less car, is to stick with time less architecture. It is cheaper to update than it is to replace!

[carguykeith]

I still say if you're talking anything besides sbc/bbc than LS is the best power plant for pro touring for the dollar. I have a (maybe) 600/600 combo that I have north of $10k into, gets single digit MPG, and literally every single piece on the motor is aftermarket or HIGHLY modified. If I were building the same power level today I could get a stock LSA, throw headers and and a $100 LS9 cam in it for less cash, get 20+ MPG, have 100k+ reliability and replacement parts available anywhere in the country. Who gives a sh*t if it looks outdated in 5-10 years, hell we may all be driving electric cars by then...

[dug]

I want a T-shirt that says

"Ron = Wisdom"

;)

Nice post

Absolutely. I feel like these threads can conjur up all sorts of emotional opinions from people but that was a well thought out and thorough post. Well said.

[mikesanto70]

29 mpgs w/ 4.10's wow, what would you be getting w/ 3.23's lol... I have been considering a stock motor Ls1, LS2, LS3, LQ9/LQ4 with a magnacharger in a 70-72 El Camino Pro Touring set up of course instead of a fully built 12:1 AFR/Ported L92 headed stroker monster N/A LSX for the efficiency of getting fuel mileage like yours because a built motor drinks gas but the SC will give me my power goals and keep fuel mileage I just did not know I could have that much gear and still make 30mpg hwy! What RPM's are you turning at say 75-80 mph in 6th?

Mike S
Scottsdale, AZ

[mikesanto70]

If LS swaps cost twice as much as they currently do, they would still be worth it. Once you come to the dark side you'll never want anything to do with a gen 1 sbc ever again. My car makes 450rwhp and still pulls down 29mpg on the highway with a t56 and 4:10s.


29 mpgs w/ 4.10's wow, what would you be getting w/ 3.23's lol... I have been considering a stock motor Ls1, LS2, LS3, LQ9/LQ4 with a magnacharger in a 70-72 El Camino Pro Touring set up of course instead of a fully built 12:1 AFR/Ported L92 headed stroker monster N/A LSX for the efficiency of getting fuel mileage like yours because a built motor drinks gas but the SC will give me my power goals and keep fuel mileage I just did not know I could have that much gear and still make 30mpg hwy! What RPM's are you turning at say 75-80 mph in 6th?

Mike S
Scottsdale, AZ

[uxojerry]

84859

Hold on, 4:10 gears and 30mpg, hmmm. Soon it will be 4:10s and 40mpg with the Gen 5 crate, lol.

[mikes70]

^^^^exactly.

I just did it in my 2nd gen and if you would of asked me right after the swap if it was worth it i would of said NO. Too many hoops, not easy, not super hard either. After doing said install (and i've had many of problems with this swap related to the LS but not DUE to the LS swap) i drove it. Then I drove the sh$t out of it. And Wow. soooo different. Plus did the Goodguys to Texas road tour, avged 80 mph, did a few runs up to a 100, 3:73's & T-56 and got 24.89 mpg ( i only checked mpg so anally cause my new tank would'nt take more than 7+/- gallons at a time) over 2085 miles. I though i was getting 20+ but when i crunched the final numbers, 24.89. So i'm not penny pinchen over gas (my dd is an Trailblazer SS), but this swap will pay for itself over time and great linear hp as we get slideways.....my 2 sense....Miie

[Todd in Vancouver]

I've read, read and then read some more on the LS but had never owned one. That being said I was a believer and then I purchased a new Camaro to drive until my '67 is done being built. That was two weeks ago and all I have to say is WOW! If you are not a convert then please by all means get a hold of me because I have a fresh 475hp 350 SBC that has been dyno'd and broken in and I'd be happy to sell it to you so I can go buy an LS.

[bikefreak600]

attention all LS nut swingers please carefully read this article. a 402 LS stoker vs a 408sbc stroker with same intake, carb, comparable heads & cams. when the engines are built similar, there is not much difference at all HAHAHA
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/complete_builds/0701ch_chevy_small_block_engine_dyno_tests/viewall.html

[bikefreak600]

attention all LS nut swingers please carefully read this article. a 402 LS stoker vs a 408sbc stroker with same intake, carb, comparable heads & cams. when the engines are built similar, there is not much difference at all HAHAHA
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/tech/engines_drivetrain/complete_builds/0701ch_chevy_small_block_engine_dyno_tests/viewall.html
the ls has a few perks as in factory efi & gas milage. but the LS motor sounds like ****.

[Z06vet]

That article is nearly 7 years old. Both are cool motors. I'd take either one. I don't dislike the old sbc. Give me the choice & I'll swing my LS nuts. Add fuel injection, fuel mileage, and nealry 100lbs less with aluminum block & I'm now swinging some serious LS nuts. It seems that more of the top running cars are swinging them too. There are some bad ass SBC/BBC/Pontiac powered cars though. It seems like you're taking it personally. Enjoy what you have, you dont have to run an LS. There is no denying the easy power potential of the LS. And there are some cheap ones out there to be had, especially if you can buy wrecked vehicle or complete pullout. I've enjoyed reading this discussion and to see what you guys have done with various motors etc. Swing what ya like....

[kimosabi]

It's all about personal preference for me. LSx is still just another pushrod V8 IC-engine, sure you get EFI and better control over every little drop of fuel going into each cylinder, more efficient use of electric energy to each cylinder, better timing control, stronger mains, block etc etc etc. But that should only be expected after so many years of engine development. Is the LSx engines a "touch from God"? Nah, they are better in almost every way compared to early SBC, but if I wanted a super modern Camaro with greater mileage than my 2nd gen, I'd get a new Camaro.

My two cents on the matter. :)

[bikefreak600]

That article is nearly 7 years old. Both are cool motors. I'd take either one. I don't dislike the old sbc. Give me the choice & I'll swing my LS nuts. Add fuel injection, fuel mileage, and nealry 100lbs less with aluminum block & I'm now swinging some serious LS nuts. It seems that more of the top running cars are swinging them too. There are some bad ass SBC/BBC/Pontiac powered cars though. It seems like you're taking it personally. Enjoy what you have, you dont have to run an LS. There is no denying the easy power potential of the LS. And there are some cheap ones out there to be had, especially if you can buy wrecked vehicle or complete pullout. I've enjoyed reading this discussion and to see what you guys have done with various motors etc. Swing what ya like....
actually i am a ford guy. the LS makes great power using mostly stock form. but as far as using big heads/ intakes etc. they are no better than anything else out there. you can throw fuel injection on anything and make it run realible with decent MPG. using fast efi/ holley/ msd fuel injection is a much better route instead of doing a complete engine swap.
i guess i am partial to the sound of the sbc. the new Ls line & ford mod engines dont have that great sound. the sbc & sbf's sound soooo much better.

[LS1-IROC]

actually i am a ford guy.

Haha, now it makes sense. I'd hate LS motors too if I was a ford guy.

....Sound is too subjective. I have had both, and quite honestly think the LS motors sound better...especially when blowing throw a chambered set-up at 6500rpms. They sound more exotic than a gen1 sbc.

[ed1le]

especially when blowing throw a chambered set-up at 6500rpms. They sound more exotic than a gen1 sbc.

+1 :cool:

[Jim Nilsen]

actually i am a ford guy. the LS makes great power using mostly stock form. but as far as using big heads/ intakes etc. they are no better than anything else out there. you can throw fuel injection on anything and make it run realible with decent MPG. using fast efi/ holley/ msd fuel injection is a much better route instead of doing a complete engine swap.
i guess i am partial to the sound of the sbc. the new Ls line & ford mod engines dont have that great sound. the sbc & sbf's sound soooo much better.

At the Motorstate Challenge several people thought I was running an LS motor. I run Magnaflow 3" mufflers with an X pipe like most of the other guys running an LS. The 383 and EFI make it have the volume and the pulse rate of an LS which might make it sound the same. I keep up with everyone else for the most part and beat many with LS power.

I am not sure when I will step over to the LSX side of life but it will take a lot of money to get me to back out of the Gen 1 block for now.

Maybe it is the 17# clutch setup that makes it rev so much like an LS?

[chichirone]

New guy here. I decided to take the plunge into the LS world. I had a very well built 383 and decided to install an LSX454 in my 1969 Camaro. I resisted for quite some time but I've found my car evolving just as others have mentioned. The "addiction" begins with your first autocross pass. Step up the suspension parts, steering, coilovers, and on and on to realize you can build a reliable, fuel efficient LS power plant that makes killer power and has great drivability, maximizing my experience. I recognize its not for everyone and my LSX choice is different than many but nonetheless it is great to be a part of this era for musclecars and engine choices. I just can't wait to stomp on the go fast pedal once its all done. Will be soon!

[alphaenvirmgt]

I really like Darts aluminum LS block. Very similar to GMs LSx block ...super strong but in lightweight aluminum.
Conrad

[72BBSwinger]

The LS has HUGE aftermarket support and can be tuned yourself with HP tuners. Oh and the majority of them are aluminum. Those things right there give its number 1 advantage over,in my own case, a 6.1 Hemi. N/a farm they are right up there but not the horsepower king by no means. At the same time if you're handy and find a good used LS2 LS3 LS7 you can have yourself some serious power. If I had a Chevy project I would go LS7 with its dry sump oiling and build it into a 440 or so and throw on a head that could hit 270cfm at .400 and 390cfm at .600 lift and it should be a solid 620-650 whp engine and live.