View Full Version : Aftermarket ABS system
Perhaps some of you know my project but its this https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/85115-Project-MENACE-C3-72-Convetible#post860059
were investigating the possibiity of adding an ABS system to the car.. Has anyone experiences in there..??
I know about the Bosch M4 kit, which is more of a professional race set up... But perhaps someone can tell me more..?
Let me know and thx!!
dennis
sccacuda
09-30-2013, 05:41 AM
Turner Motorsports is the only one I know off that offers a stand alone ABS that is programmable. They are using the E36 system, but big coin.
Turner Motorsports is the only one I know off that offers a stand alone ABS that is programmable. They are using the E36 system, but big coin.
thx!!
pharmd
09-30-2013, 06:15 PM
No way to effectively retro fit a late model system off a car or truck? I am interested in this also.
MonzaRacer
10-02-2013, 07:51 PM
Got a buddy running the 10 bolt and drive line from a Silverado in a Camaro body, 3 line(channel) setup. Seems to operate pretty good so far no real issues. biggest thing is what body your pitting it on. IF you get a simple ABS setup and keep your tires within the 3% rule its not real hard. biggest issue is choosing a setup. We used truck parts as they had 10 bolt 8.5 that his car parts fit and getting axles cut and replained wasnt as hard as we thought, they actually were able to mod off shelf stuff to fit for his car.
Biggest thing is KNOWING the system your working on and being able to adapt accordingly. Only issue was he doesnt like truck rear brakes but we figured suitable replacements that use similar piston diameters and fit car.
Lot of people like using S10 rear disc on GM rears as they nearly bolt on, if you could source something like that, might be able to adapt, biggest issue is keeping the pulses per mile identical. buddy with Camaro actually tuned with tire height some.
rickpaw
10-03-2013, 10:47 AM
Can't you get the factory GM ABS to work? Mark Stielow uses GM ABS system on his latest cars.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=36652&highlight=mayhem
parsonsj
10-03-2013, 11:51 AM
Mark has custom programming --- he's got some inside pull there. :)
Can't you get the factory GM ABS to work? Mark Stielow uses GM ABS system on his latest cars.
http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=36652&highlight=mayhem
Mark has custom programming --- he's got some inside pull there. :)
thx. i knew this car but never red this threat! my car will get exactly the same engine from brian thomson, so lot of interesting info there..
about ABS.. im more and more getting to the bosch system.. More expensive but its made for aftermarket and a cheaper existing system would take a lot of engineering and figuring out how to adjust all sensors..
and because weve never done that, that will take a lot of time and also money.
so not decided yet, but i think the bosch system is for now the best option..
Unless someone ever installed a ZR1 ABS system and can exactly tell how to do... :-))
Ill visit Heartland customs 1 november and will discuss with them wat def way we go. we also attend SEMA together so maybe wll find more options there
thx for all info!!!
dennis
sccacuda
10-03-2013, 12:15 PM
Turner has broken the code on the E36. You can buy a stock ECU from them or a programmable one. With a very limited market and the expense of breaking code, might be an indication for their price point. You'd be 5K in when it's all said and done. I'll just modulate the pedal for 5K.
Turner has broken the code on the E36. You can buy a stock ECU from them or a programmable one. With a very limited market and the expense of breaking code, might be an indication for their price point. You'd be 5K in when it's all said and done. I'll just modulate the pedal for 5K.
thats the BMW system though?
thats the BMW system though?
a have contact here with a dutch company www.k-m-p.nl thats telling there are 2 ways to
either
High end: Bosch system, price range 6300 tot 7800 euros
Mid range: BMW Teves M60 ABS price range 4500 tot 5000
But they tell, bosch is best by far and most adjustable.. all topteams on le mans seems to use it they said..
dennis
sccacuda
10-03-2013, 12:50 PM
thats the BMW system though?
Yes, Turner races BMW in the Rolex series and Continental as well, I think. That's why they have the code broken on that unit.
MonzaRacer
10-03-2013, 07:55 PM
Well not like they didnt just call company for THAT code, but dang ever try pricing tools or parts for the BMW system? Definitely NOT in m y price range. I was actually impressed how well the Silverado set up adapted. My friend was too as he had little to NO idea how it worked, how a scanner worked, or even FI.
He now has some real knowledge in it as he helped adapt some parts to a buddies Chevelle, same as his Camaro but they completely rebuilt front suspension and I think were using ZQ8 spindles and adapting in Corvette parts.
My friends Camaro was using ATS spindles so it was easier for him.
and I believe he had wheel/tire choices on his Silverado set up so it came closer to matching with speedo for matching to PCM. He now has a wrecked hybrid 5.3 truck and says he has figured out how to marry the 5.3 flex fuel table with hybrid control for his wifes Camaro. He has E85 and E100 in barrels so he was thinking of adapting it all in and running some boost!. Heck the guy turboed his 8N tractor, never would have figured it too live but so far 5 psi and he can pull 4bottom 16in plow IF clutch holds!
Anyway as long as the system has some semblance of balance from application to adapted car it can work. should you try to sell them,,,,, thats up too you.
olason
10-03-2013, 08:03 PM
The ZR1 would be like the Z06 and other corvettes. the sensors are built into the hub that is a three bolt to the upright assembly. Then you plug into the harness, and I think that the harness has accelerometers or sensors under the passenger seat. Or that was a different system that places the sensors there. I am looking to use the corvette setup due to using their hubs on my project.
rickpaw
10-04-2013, 05:01 AM
Mark has custom programming --- he's got some inside pull there. :)
Maybe I read it wrong, but in one of the posts, Mark stated that the trick is to trick the ABS system to think that it's still installed in the car it was designed for (same ABS sensors/wiring). Maybe he did that with Red Devil, and had custom programming for Mayhem.
andrewb70
10-04-2013, 05:47 AM
a have contact here with a dutch company www.k-m-p.nl thats telling there are 2 ways to
either
High end: Bosch system, price range 6300 tot 7800 euros
Mid range: BMW Teves M60 ABS price range 4500 tot 5000
But they tell, bosch is best by far and most adjustable.. all topteams on le mans seems to use it they said..
dennis
Dennis,
I am curious to see what you end up doing. One thing that I noticed about the Bosch system is that it requires the use of their sensors. On a race car this would be fairly simple, but as I recall, you have a RS chassis with C5/6 hubs that have integrated GM sensors. Perhaps it is easy to adapt the Bosch sensors to the Corvette hubs, but it seemed like a lot of work to me.
Whatever you do, please keep us posted. I think a lot of people are interested in a workable ABS solution. I am also quite sure that Bosch is keeping the price of this system high to discourage use on street cars, since there are probably liability issues involved.
Andrew
sccacuda
10-04-2013, 07:31 AM
I did a little reading up on Bosch MK4 Motorsports system. Looks like a very nice setup, that is programmable, using pretty much the same sensors that an ESP system uses. Pitch, Yaw, and Steering Angle. I think the 8-10K price tag is ridiculous though! They have a system with OEM connectors and Motorsports connectors. I guess my question would be if the MK4 software available from Bosch will program OEM MK4 HCU's? Would they sell they HCU separately if not?
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/3720.htm
andrewb70
10-04-2013, 10:01 AM
I did a little reading up on Bosch MK4 Motorsports system. Looks like a very nice setup, that is programmable, using pretty much the same sensors that an ESP system uses. Pitch, Yaw, and Steering Angle. I think the 8-10K price tag is ridiculous though! They have a system with OEM connectors and Motorsports connectors. I guess my question would be if the MK4 software available from Bosch will program OEM MK4 HCU's? Would they sell they HCU separately if not?
http://www.bosch-motorsport.de/content/language2/html/3720.htm
Craig,
I am quite certain that the price is held high so that it would discourage the average hotrodder from installing it on a street car. I also doubt that any of the software or hardware is available separately.
The system looks slick and I love the fact that you have a cockpit adjustable knob that a driver can use to dial in different maps.
Andrew
scott_fx
10-04-2013, 10:09 AM
don't know if anyone has seen this one yet, but thought i'd toss it up here
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/hrdp_1108_abs_for_hot_rods/viewall.html
PTAddict
11-01-2013, 07:53 PM
Resurrecting this thread a bit: I've been researching ABS systems for my track-oriented '69 Camaro. On the high end, the Bosch M4 ABS seems to be the clear favorite amongst the racing community, due in large part to it's easy cockpit accessible adjustability. But it's very expensive. The Bosch website is deceptive: the pricing it lists, about $8500 US, doesn't represent the US price. Apparently, in the US, dealers are required to provide Bosch Motorsports tested and approved wiring harnesses, which drives the price well into 5 digits. If those numbers make you choke - as they did me, despite the high dollar commitment of my personal car - there are other options.
The Hot Rod article mentioned just above provides one answer. The C5 Corvette systems, sourced either new or used, apparently can be readily adapted to aftermarket use. But there are significant issues to overcome in creating the appropriate wheel sensor inputs - described in this article, and also detailed by Mark Stielow in his last '69 build. One way to simplify that is to go with Corvette hubs all the way around, using aftermarket front suspensions that use C5/C6 vette hubs, and rear axle ends from TheGMR.com that also accept vette hubs. But the other factor with the C5 Vette based system is that it isn't all that well-respected for AutoX and track-oriented use. For instance, go to this search URL: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/search.php?searchid=38408290 and read the scary stories.
Another popular option for lower-cost motorsport-oriented ABS is the Teves-based system used in a number of vehicles, most notably the later model BMW M3s. There is a version of this system, called the Teves MK60, programmed for the European BMW M3 CSL E46 variant, which has proved to be quite popular and successful as a retrofit in low-grade motorsports (HPDE, Club racing, etc), across a large range of vehicles and configurations. There are late model Porsche guys swapping out the factory system for this Teves Mk60. Depending on whether you need plumbing, wire harness, etc, these systems can range from $2K to $4K - competitive with the C5 Vette system if you buy new components. Beyond that, there is a version of the Teves MK60 that has explicit Motorsports programming, and a step up from that, a Teves MK60E5 Motorsports system, which at the top end is still less than 2/3 the cost of the Bosch M4.
A lot of what I've learned came just from a lot of Google searching and forum reading, but also from Curt Jung, of Jung Motorsports in Texas, who has experience with all of these systems. Personally, I'm going to go with a Teves/CSL system to start with from Curt, and I expect it will significantly increase my confidence and aggressiveness in braking zones.
not as high line as you guys ... I'm running chump and lemons ... putting ABS on a 1982 GM Fbody Camaro ... so budget is even LOWER ! I'm planning on a USED JUNK YARD Bosch 5.3 out of a 99-2002 Camaro . similar to the hot rod article link .... but we have to run our stock TPI motor .... we already have a 2002 camaro rear end in the car .. so 2 of the 4 channels are done ... so .. for us .. the front is the issue ... just so happens a S10 ABS setup fits (FIT used VERY loosely) but the tooth count is wrong .... so .. we have a Mechanical Engineer on the race team, I got him to draw the correct tooth count tone ring / reluctor wheel ... called in another favor and had them made .... hitting the junkyards again this weekend in hopes of finding a car with the right options .... the ABS "add on" should be under $500-600 ....
another option we are exploring is racetronix ..... around $1000-1200 ....
http://www.racelogic.co.uk/index.php/en/other-products/traction-control?start=5
Resurrecting this thread a bit: I've been researching ABS systems for my track-oriented '69 Camaro. On the high end, the Bosch M4 ABS seems to be the clear favorite amongst the racing community, due in large part to it's easy cockpit accessible adjustability. But it's very expensive. The Bosch website is deceptive: the pricing it lists, about $8500 US, doesn't represent the US price. Apparently, in the US, dealers are required to provide Bosch Motorsports tested and approved wiring harnesses, which drives the price well into 5 digits. If those numbers make you choke - as they did me, despite the high dollar commitment of my personal car - there are other options.
The Hot Rod article mentioned just above provides one answer. The C5 Corvette systems, sourced either new or used, apparently can be readily adapted to aftermarket use. But there are significant issues to overcome in creating the appropriate wheel sensor inputs - described in this article, and also detailed by Mark Stielow in his last '69 build. One way to simplify that is to go with Corvette hubs all the way around, using aftermarket front suspensions that use C5/C6 vette hubs, and rear axle ends from TheGMR.com that also accept vette hubs. But the other factor with the C5 Vette based system is that it isn't all that well-respected for AutoX and track-oriented use. For instance, go to this search URL: http://forums.corvetteforum.com/search.php?searchid=38408290 and read the scary stories.
Another popular option for lower-cost motorsport-oriented ABS is the Teves-based system used in a number of vehicles, most notably the later model BMW M3s. There is a version of this system, called the Teves MK60, programmed for the European BMW M3 CSL E46 variant, which has proved to be quite popular and successful as a retrofit in low-grade motorsports (HPDE, Club racing, etc), across a large range of vehicles and configurations. There are late model Porsche guys swapping out the factory system for this Teves Mk60. Depending on whether you need plumbing, wire harness, etc, these systems can range from $2K to $4K - competitive with the C5 Vette system if you buy new components. Beyond that, there is a version of the Teves MK60 that has explicit Motorsports programming, and a step up from that, a Teves MK60E5 Motorsports system, which at the top end is still less than 2/3 the cost of the Bosch M4.
A lot of what I've learned came just from a lot of Google searching and forum reading, but also from Curt Jung, of Jung Motorsports in Texas, who has experience with all of these systems. Personally, I'm going to go with a Teves/CSL system to start with from Curt, and I expect it will significantly increase my confidence and aggressiveness in braking zones.
Hi PTAddict,
thx for all info! can you please send me the contact details of Curt Jung? Cant find him on the net.. Can send it here or by PM what you prefer.
dennis
diesel25lrs
07-12-2014, 09:57 AM
Any updates to this thread or anyone made any progress on this? I'm also looking into this...
andrewb70
02-02-2015, 08:36 AM
Updates?
Andrew
vette427-sbc
02-18-2015, 02:06 PM
Im going to attempt this very soon... Just waiting to find someone parting out a C6Z to get the EBCM, lat, yaw and steering sensors. I will definitely be doing an extensive writeup on it if I can get it to work.
BADDRIDE II
02-28-2015, 04:25 PM
This may help some folks... http://www.lateral-g.net/forums/showthread.php4?t=48782
68EFIvert
10-21-2018, 10:00 AM
Does anyone have any experience with the new Bosch M5 setup?
dhutton
10-21-2018, 01:07 PM
Does anyone have any experience with the new Bosch M5 setup?
I think Mark Stielow has. You could try sending him a PM on the other site.
Don
Build-It-Break-It
10-21-2018, 05:05 PM
I think Mark Stielow has. You could try sending him a PM on the other site.
Don
Mark doesn't give out certain information he does on his cars he said. One thing being the ABS system. He said he doesn't want to be responsible if something he personally does on his car and it doesn't work on yours. Then he'd feel obligated to help you trouble shoot. I can understandthat tho.
68EFIvert
10-23-2018, 01:54 PM
Thanks for the help guys. The biggest concern I have is how to mount a tone ring for the ABS sensor on my 9" with Torino style ends and Wilwood brakes. Does anyone have any ideas or know someone who has done that?
I am using a Wilwood brake kit with 14" rotors if that helps.
parsonsj
10-25-2018, 09:25 AM
I'm interested in this discussion as well. I'm working on enhancements for my Radical SR8, and am also wanting a tone ring solution that integrates with brake rotors.
I've installed a Ford Taurus tone ring on my rear axles, and am using a Bosch Motorsports Hall effect sensor. But the front wheel solution has thus far eluded me...
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