Bolt on Hybrid system is closer to market!!!

[Ash]

First saw this story last August. A Middle Tennessee State University skunkworks program for a Bolt on Hybrid system. No updates for a while, so had consigned it to vaporware. Looks like it's moving through (http://www.myperfectautomobile.com/featured/hybrid-car-kit.html) the motions to market! This thing can potentially change the tide as we know it. Bolt on an additional around town 100 HP per wheel (4 wheels is 400 hp!!!). Being able to decide how you use it on the go. Performance or MPG.

Original TN state video describing the Technology

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Protean Electric demonstration/Pitch. late mode mustang live axle included

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www.proteanelectric.com/en/ (http://www.proteanelectric.com/en/)



Looking a bit down the road, but If the original (and insanely affordable) $3,000-$5,000 retail goal is met, production can keep with demand, it certainly become a universally adopted retrofit. Consumer Gasoline sales will drop quite a bit, so prices would rise. The huge influx of home charging stations would tax the existing grid...Maybe a little pie in the sky, but this could be the catalyst for another Solar boom (Dupont is helping lessen the silver requirement, and solar cell efficiency is now at 20% +). A Quasi energy independence coming in through the back door. Not trying to get political with this, just speculating on what the technology could theoretically lead to. Curious to your thoughts on this given the nature of the community!

[andrewb70]

Thanks for sharing.

A lot of us hotrodders have been dreaming about 4wd, well, this seems like a viable way to achieve that. I wonder how much unsprung weight the motors add...

Andrew

[SS PUNISHER]

I'd take another 440hp and awd all day! Something like that would package nicely in my 300...I dig it.

[spacepirate]

I graduated from MTSU!! Exciting stuff.

[olason]

Hub motors are interesting, and working on a SAE formula hybrid team I wanted to do it for front wheel power and for packaging.

We already had electric components that weren't in this direction. I know the first video must have a covering for the windings on the electromagnets, but I would only invest in a vehicle with hub motors after several have hit 100k+ miles on the salty/icy winter roads of North Dakota and Minnesota. I would think if not properly sealed they could end up just like air brakes on semis where they freeze up.

The second guy talks about how great hub motors are getting rid of the driveshafts which is true, but can you imagine the vibration that the motors will get being unsprung mass. In-board mounting means they are suspended and damped from the road.

I do admit that electric/hybrid vehicles will be much more popular once the energy density of batteries increases, so that either ranges can increase or the dimensions/weight of the battery pack decrease.

But at least they are putting new options to market.

[olason]

Hub motors are interesting, and working on a SAE formula hybrid team I wanted to do it for front wheel power and for packaging.

We already had electric components that weren't in this direction. I know the first video must have a covering for the windings on the electromagnets, but I would only invest in a vehicle with hub motors after several have hit 100k+ miles on the salty/icy winter roads of North Dakota and Minnesota. I would think if not properly sealed they could end up just like air brakes on semis where they freeze up.

The second guy talks about how great hub motors are getting rid of the driveshafts which is true, but can you imagine the vibration that the motors will get being unsprung mass. In-board mounting means they are suspended and damped from the road.

I do admit that electric/hybrid vehicles will be much more popular once the energy density of batteries increases, so that either ranges can increase or the dimensions/weight of the battery pack decrease.

But at least they are putting new options to market.

[RobNoLimit]

Very cool to see this. I do hope it stays in the hands of those who really believe in it and want to take it to the public market. 10+ yrs ago I witnesed the operation of a 60 cu in 12 cyl radial style engine at UCR, this motor weighed only 125 lbs and made over 200 hp. The fuel consumption was extremely low, it took less than half a gallon to run the engine for one hr at 4000 rpm with a 120hp load on the dyno. Then the project was purched by a large multinational and the whole project was sealed and shelved. - sad for all of us.

[cactuss4]

Very cool!

[J-440]

Rob...kinda reminds me of the old urban legend back in the 80's when a customer bought a brand new Crown Vic from the dealership. He claims to have driven the car for 2 weeks and the gas needle had not moved. He brought it back and when they opened the hood for inspection, the mechanic had no idea what he was looking at. It did not look like a standard motor of the day. Still, rumor was that the manager quickly took the car back and gave him another car but with a conventional motor.
Other stories of big corporations hearing about the "little guy" coming up with a revolutionary idea that has to do with oil and gas coming in, buying them out, then shelving the product. Makes you wonder what else is out there.

[AusMarty]

If you build an electric car.
You should run the motor through the gearbox.

Ya don't bolt your wheels to the V8's flywheel now do ya? :-|
That's the reason most electric cars have horrible electric mileage.

And for anyone that says a gearbox can't handle the torque.
Google Electric Hotrod.



Also.
The oil Crisis is a load of S***.
There's enough oil out of the ground to run the world at current consumption for another 50 years.


Also.
http://gas2.org/2008/03/12/the-worlds-most-fuel-efficient-car-285-mpg-not-a-hybrid/

Aaaand there was one done in the 50's or 60's that was a weird thing.
But had some gas based fuel thing that ran crazy miles on a gallon, they tested it on the salt flats in Utah.

If I find it I will linky it.

[J-440]

Well hell, Smokey Yunick partnered with Pontiac and got a Fiero to get 40mpg back in the 80's. Also, didn't the Geo Metro get 45mpg with a 3 cylinder motor back in their day?

[mmosley]

First saw this story last August. A Middle Tennessee State University skunkworks program for a Bolt on Hybrid system.

Check the date on this article:
http://www.just-auto.com/news/mitsubishi-motors-opts-for-in-wheel-motors-and-lithium-ion-batteries-for-next-generation-evs_id73382.aspx

I get a little nauseated when I listen to salesmen selling this stuff like they invented it. Wheel motors are nothing new, been around for a while. Wheel motors have a few drawbacks. Un-sprung weight is definitely one. Rotating mass is a big problem, the larger the diameter of the motor, the more torque. The larger the diameter, the more angular momentum the motor will have. So, to get the torque you have to pay with inertia, it then becomes a materials, cost, and packaging problem. Durability for the application is another; shock loading at a spindle is brutal. The university professor they interviewed had what clearly looked to me to be a science experiment and he was talking about commercialization. The two are usually pretty far apart. It makes for a nice article in popular mechanics, but is it viable. Maybe. The new NSX is supposed to have two up front, though it is not clear to me if they are wheel motors or mounted inboard: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2015-acura-nsx-future-cars

I used to work for a research center that had significant experience in hybrid drivetrain development dating back to the mid 90's.

I looked into the concept of building an all wheel drive four wheel electric car in early 2005, at the time individual motors connected to half shafts were the more viable option. At the time a wheel motor that could generate enough torque was too heavy. I was part of a group that was looking at commercialization projects. What truly made me ill was I had suggested to the "customer" who was paying for the concept that the best / shortest / most viable path was for them was to pursue a plug in hybrid with one to four traction motors that used a turbo-diesel generator or even a turbine and no drivetrain between the actual engine and the wheels. A single motor could drive the front wheels, or one at each end of the car. Or, for a sport coupe you could have individual wheel control for traction, braking, ABS, and stability control. The "customer" and their contract design house did not believe the public would be interested in such a vehicle.

And then, two years later... "The Chevrolet Volt concept car debuted at the January 2007 North American International Auto Show, becoming the first-ever series plug-in hybrid concept car shown by a major car manufacturer"

If they had run with what I suggested they would have been out as much as a year ahead of GM... imagine that! Or as Charlie Brown used to say "AAUGH!"

Michael Mosley
(Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering, concentration in Dynamic Systems & Controls)
1968 Barracuda
Plano, TX

[mmosley]

Well hell, Smokey Yunick partnered with Pontiac and got a Fiero to get 40mpg back in the 80's. Also, didn't the Geo Metro get 45mpg with a 3 cylinder motor back in their day?

MSD (namely the old man, Jack I think, before they were MSD) worked with Chrysler on some interesting stuff in the name of gas mileage, the horrid system known as the Chrysler "lean burn" came out of it and I think he got, well, nada. But, he formed his own little company called Autotronics Controls (better known as MSD) and started making ignition systems for race cars... I worked in their plastic injection room in the mid 80s when they were still small potatoes. My brother and I hand made the first MSD Chrysler small block distributor and MSD Pontiac distributor as prototypes for our cars.

[raustinss]

Yes smokey had it figured out in his hot vapor fiero...and yes the oil crisis is crap FYI in Saskatchewan a province here in Canada there are oil reserves we haven't even touched yet which are larger then the state of Florida..just off the coast of newfoundland there is a oil deposit which supposedly has as much oil as the middle east and then there's alberta..they don't even know how much oil is in the oil sands. folks as cool as hub motors are I believe that we as North Americans well be embracing more diesels long before electric cars it is existing technology which isn't too far removed from gasoline
Keep your stick on the ice
Ryan Austin

[Cobra 498]

Check the date on this article:
http://www.just-auto.com/news/mitsubishi-motors-opts-for-in-wheel-motors-and-lithium-ion-batteries-for-next-generation-evs_id73382.aspx

I get a little nauseated when I listen to salesmen selling this stuff like they invented it. Wheel motors are nothing new, been around for a while. Wheel motors have a few drawbacks. Un-sprung weight is definitely one. Rotating mass is a big problem, the larger the diameter of the motor, the more torque. The larger the diameter, the more angular momentum the motor will have. So, to get the torque you have to pay with inertia, it then becomes a materials, cost, and packaging problem. Durability for the application is another; shock loading at a spindle is brutal. The university professor they interviewed had what clearly looked to me to be a science experiment and he was talking about commercialization. The two are usually pretty far apart. It makes for a nice article in popular mechanics, but is it viable. Maybe. The new NSX is supposed to have two up front, though it is not clear to me if they are wheel motors or mounted inboard: http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2015-acura-nsx-future-cars

I used to work for a research center that had significant experience in hybrid drivetrain development dating back to the mid 90's.

I looked into the concept of building an all wheel drive four wheel electric car in early 2005, at the time individual motors connected to half shafts were the more viable option. At the time a wheel motor that could generate enough torque was too heavy. I was part of a group that was looking at commercialization projects. What truly made me ill was I had suggested to the "customer" who was paying for the concept that the best / shortest / most viable path was for them was to pursue a plug in hybrid with one to four traction motors that used a turbo-diesel generator or even a turbine and no drivetrain between the actual engine and the wheels. A single motor could drive the front wheels, or one at each end of the car. Or, for a sport coupe you could have individual wheel control for traction, braking, ABS, and stability control. The "customer" and their contract design house did not believe the public would be interested in such a vehicle.

And then, two years later... "The Chevrolet Volt concept car debuted at the January 2007 North American International Auto Show, becoming the first-ever series plug-in hybrid concept car shown by a major car manufacturer"

If they had run with what I suggested they would have been out as much as a year ahead of GM... imagine that! Or as Charlie Brown used to say "AAUGH!"

Michael Mosley
(Master of Science in Mechanical Engineering, concentration in Dynamic Systems & Controls)
1968 Barracuda
Plano, TX

I worked for 31 years at one of the big three (at least they were then) and we got proposals from academic types on a regular basis that were "not quite worked out". The academics never
understood the massive amount of testing and development that was required to bring a project to production let alone make it feasible enough to even bother with the R & D in the first place.
My group was given the task to propose the most feasible approach to an electric vehicle in 1975, we concluded that a small turbo diesel driving a generator combined with a battery pack with electric drive was the way to go. The energy crisis subsided and the project was ended. We also concluded, as you did,that half shafts were the most viable approach because as you stated the problems with wheel motors were substantial at least at that time. Reducing unsprung weight and rotating inertia are very important factors in vehicle dynamics.
.

[mmosley]

I worked for 31 years at one of the big three (at least they were then) and we got proposals from academic types on a regular basis that were "not quite worked out".

Boy that is an understatement... what is really funny (but you had to try to handle it delicately) was situation where I had guys approaching me about concepts and "new" ideas. I once had a guy trying to get me to help with his patent idea on a new motor, I showed him some "prior art", it was a sketch of a motor that Nikola Tesla had built in the 1800s. Almost identical in every feature to his idea.

Our center did considerable research and development in the area of active suspension technology. With a high enough sample rate you could see forces at the spindle spike in excess of 100G. It would take a very lightweight and robust wheel motor system to be able to live in that kind of environment.

[MonzaRacer]

OK guys, my aunt used to be married to a guy who worked in oil industry, and I had some very good history teachers. the USA has an "fossil" fuel reserve of several hundred years.
Reason we never touched it was USSR and nuke war. IF we got hit or middle east was off limits we were still set.
Now IF the stupid greenies/treehuggers/PC crowd/socialist control freaks get out of the innovation way we could do some real good things.
Open up our reseves, shut down majority of EPA BS regulations, stream line permits and safety and inspections. THEN as energy flows, and prices come down, start shunting small amount of taxes from that to working on solar, wind,ocean,water, low pressure thorium fluid fuel reactors(these also can and do "eat" other more dangerous radioactive left overs) .
WE would have jobs, tax revenues, cheap energy. Oh and lets just say that coal does NOT take millions of years to form, nor does it take thousands of years to petrify things. coal CAN be produced from waste and help a lot of things.
Facts are that IF we had a super high CO2 concentration,plants would be going crazy in growth. Tests and such prove that.
As for electric cars GM scrapped and threw away the EV1 program, and nearly everyone of those lease cars the people wanted to keep.
Also when "converting" to electric its not hard, most engineers havent taken time to forget some of the "rules" that were drummed into their heads.
I know of several cars/small pickups that use batteries, capacitors, well super caps, and small opposed 2 cylinder "charger" engine to help regenerate. Buddy of mine works in Germany and wants to move his section back to USA,,,,EPA and couple other fun groups wont let them bring certain battery tech with them, even if experimental.
As for electric motors at wheels, no big issue they have used them for years in heavy equipment and in small service load vehicles. I forget the brand but I worked on cabling for a small produce company in Indy that had , I think it was French, but may be wrong, fork lift, had 4 wd used batteries and caps and progressive controller and could run 45-50 loaded and was VERY responsive, you had to have it in slow mode ot it could throw loads off.
I was paid to recable it after seat shorted couple out. Saw flyer that company had of same brand, small truck used same setup. And it could haull like 3 tons and go 60 mph and run over 100 miles on charge.
I see so many companies make real mistakes. There is small propane powered "charger" engine again I think from a French company, Can recharge a medium fork lift in like 1 hr. figure one or two of these setups in a car would cure lots of issues.

[AusMarty]

^This.

[Ash]

Now IF the stupid greenies/treehuggers/PC crowd/socialist control freaks get out of the innovation way we could do some real good things.
Open up our reseves, shut down majority of EPA BS regulations, stream line permits and safety and inspections. THEN as energy flows, and prices come down, start shunting small amount of taxes from that to working on solar, wind,ocean,water, low pressure thorium fluid fuel reactors(these also can and do "eat" other more dangerous radioactive left overs) .

We are an OPEC nation. The funny thing is, prices would only come down substantially if we "Socialized" our oil reserves. No matter how much we drill, the major Oil companies are still a prime ingredient in the present model, and Crude would still be a commodity subject to the tides of the market/investors. Irrespective of political leanings...just the nature of the beast.