Big Power!!!! Help

[69 Muscle]

Building the ultimate 350.. 450-550 horsepower plus and 575 torque plus.. I have a 350 4 bolt main 2 piece rear seal.. Just had it bored .060 over. I believe this makes it 388 cu. with 4.060 bore. Correct? First off was wanting opinions on whether to stroke it or not? Should I stick with a 3.48 stroke which is stock or jump to what I believe would be a 3.875 stroke because of the bore size, since it can't be a 383. I was planning on using SCAT 4340 forged crank and Forged H beam rods. With choosing the crank arisies the question of rod length. Stay with 5.7 rods for durablity or go with 6.0 rods. I don't know alot about this area so all comments are appreciated. Next was going to use forged pistons because of the horsepower and torque I was looking for.. Should I go with SRP, JE, or Keith Black, but unsure if the KB pistons come forged or with a teflon coating? Have yet to call them. Which brings up another question on whether to use teflon coated pistons or not. Have heard several opinions but would really appreciate it from true gear heads with big muscle investments. Some say don't worry about the coating because it will burn off anyway, but then why would OEM replacements come coated now. Also I am going to use flat top so I can later install an ATI procharger D-1SC. I am also going to use moly rings. Again I am also looking for the proper quench rate... Again have done my math for clearance issues and think these combos are okay, but maybe someone with more know how can double check me and let me know.. My goal is to build a rock solid bottom end, ie bulletproof ha ha. And then build a solid top to match. I was going to use comp cams.. something with around 540 lift due to clearance with a spring rate of 117 closed valve to 280 open valve. I was going to use roller rockers and lifters. I was wanting to have great mid range power all the way through the power band from 1900-6500.. Any cam thoughts are appreciated. Also I don't really want to have to tear down and rebuild every couple thousand miles, would like all this meet my hp and torque goals and still be durable and have good engine life. So please if I have missed something correct me and let me know which way I should go. The obvious choice for heads was AFR aluminum 195cc 68 ci. I have a Edelbrock performer intake and was giong to use it unless you guys think the air gap would be better. Also have a Holley 750. It has a M-21 close ratio tranny but know how long this will last due to the power. Any tranny suggestions? Was thinking TKO 500-600 or maybe a Richmond if you think it can handle the power. I have put alot of time in this so far and will continue to due so over the next month for mock up, blue printing, and final assembly. Not to mention the $4000.00 dollars it will probably cost to complete this build. So all gear heads please help with suggestions and opinions on what I am thinking about building. Do you think these combos are good or not.. I plan on having a 10:1 compression. Also if anyone knows anyone to get great deals on parts let me know.. A dollar saved is a new dollar towards horsepower increase. Thanks

[69 Muscle]

Building the ultimate 350.. 450-550 horsepower plus and 575 torque plus.. I have a 350 4 bolt main 2 piece rear seal.. Just had it bored .060 over. I believe this makes it 388 cu. with 4.060 bore. Correct? First off was wanting opinions on whether to stroke it or not? Should I stick with a 3.48 stroke which is stock or jump to what I believe would be a 3.875 stroke because of the bore size, since it can't be a 383. I was planning on using SCAT 4340 forged crank and Forged H beam rods. With choosing the crank arisies the question of rod length. Stay with 5.7 rods for durablity or go with 6.0 rods. I don't know alot about this area so all comments are appreciated. Next was going to use forged pistons because of the horsepower and torque I was looking for.. Should I go with SRP, JE, or Keith Black, but unsure if the KB pistons come forged or with a teflon coating? Have yet to call them. Which brings up another question on whether to use teflon coated pistons or not. Have heard several opinions but would really appreciate it from true gear heads with big muscle investments. Some say don't worry about the coating because it will burn off anyway, but then why would OEM replacements come coated now. Also I am going to use flat top so I can later install an ATI procharger D-1SC. I am also going to use moly rings. Again I am also looking for the proper quench rate... Again have done my math for clearance issues and think these combos are okay, but maybe someone with more know how can double check me and let me know.. My goal is to build a rock solid bottom end, ie bulletproof ha ha. And then build a solid top to match. I was going to use comp cams.. something with around 540 lift due to clearance with a spring rate of 117 closed valve to 280 open valve. I was going to use roller rockers and lifters. I was wanting to have great mid range power all the way through the power band from 1900-6500.. Any cam thoughts are appreciated. Also I don't really want to have to tear down and rebuild every couple thousand miles, would like all this meet my hp and torque goals and still be durable and have good engine life. So please if I have missed something correct me and let me know which way I should go. The obvious choice for heads was AFR aluminum 195cc 68 ci. I have a Edelbrock performer intake and was giong to use it unless you guys think the air gap would be better. Also have a Holley 750. It has a M-21 close ratio tranny but know how long this will last due to the power. Any tranny suggestions? Was thinking TKO 500-600 or maybe a Richmond if you think it can handle the power. I have put alot of time in this so far and will continue to due so over the next month for mock up, blue printing, and final assembly. Not to mention the $4000.00 dollars it will probably cost to complete this build. So all gear heads please help with suggestions and opinions on what I am thinking about building. Do you think these combos are good or not.. Also if anyone knows anyone to get great deals on parts let me know....A dollar saved is a new dollar towards horsepower increase. ThanksI always think when they pull up OH Darn they better not!!!!

[USAZR1]

That's a noble goal you have there but I doubt very seriously you can build that engine for anywhere near $4K.

[JamesJ]

I think that if you have the standard stroke of 3.48 your bore will need to be much larger to reach 388. I think that a bore of 4.125 makes a 377 when using a 3.480 stroke

[Matt@RFR]

http://www.gmv6.org/ciCalc.html

[yody]

hmmm, how bout you put a couple paragraphs in there and then we will work out your engine questions?

[69 Muscle]

Well so far no one really has any suggestions for me and sorry Yody for the confussion.

[Travis B]

Building the ultimate 350.. 450-550 horsepower plus and 575 torque plus.. I have a 350 4 bolt main 2 piece rear seal.. Just had it bored .060 over. I believe this makes it 388 cu. with 4.060 bore. Correct? First off was wanting opinions on whether to stroke it or not? Should I stick with a 3.48 stroke which is stock or jump to what I believe would be a 3.875 stroke because of the bore size, since it can't be a 383. I was planning on using SCAT 4340 forged crank and Forged H beam rods. With choosing the crank arisies the question of rod length. Stay with 5.7 rods for durablity or go with 6.0 rods. I don't know alot about this area so all comments are appreciated. Next was going to use forged pistons because of the horsepower and torque I was looking for.. Should I go with SRP, JE, or Keith Black, but unsure if the KB pistons come forged or with a teflon coating? Have yet to call them. Which brings up another question on whether to use teflon coated pistons or not. Have heard several opinions but would really appreciate it from true gear heads with big muscle investments. Some say don't worry about the coating because it will burn off anyway, but then why would OEM replacements come coated now. Also I am going to use flat top so I can later install an ATI procharger D-1SC. I am also going to use moly rings. Again I am also looking for the proper quench rate... Again have done my math for clearance issues and think these combos are okay, but maybe someone with more know how can double check me and let me know.. My goal is to build a rock solid bottom end, ie bulletproof ha ha. And then build a solid top to match. I was going to use comp cams.. something with around 540 lift due to clearance with a spring rate of 117 closed valve to 280 open valve. I was going to use roller rockers and lifters. I was wanting to have great mid range power all the way through the power band from 1900-6500.. Any cam thoughts are appreciated. Also I don't really want to have to tear down and rebuild every couple thousand miles, would like all this meet my hp and torque goals and still be durable and have good engine life. So please if I have missed something correct me and let me know which way I should go. The obvious choice for heads was AFR aluminum 195cc 68 ci. I have a Edelbrock performer intake and was giong to use it unless you guys think the air gap would be better. Also have a Holley 750. It has a M-21 close ratio tranny but know how long this will last due to the power. Any tranny suggestions? Was thinking TKO 500-600 or maybe a Richmond if you think it can handle the power. I have put alot of time in this so far and will continue to due so over the next month for mock up, blue printing, and final assembly. Not to mention the $4000.00 dollars it will probably cost to complete this build. So all gear heads please help with suggestions and opinions on what I am thinking about building. Do you think these combos are good or not.. I plan on having a 10:1 compression. Also if anyone knows anyone to get great deals on parts let me know.. A dollar saved is a new dollar towards horsepower increase. Thanks


First of all if you haven't built the bottom end yet I would stroke it, that will get you a lot closer to your torque goal! However with some of the parts you have listed I don't think you will reach 500hp! The first problem I see is the intake, that performer wont allow the rpm you are going to have to turn to reach your goal! And I could be wrong but I don't think your cam is big enough to reach 500hp-550hp! I would go with JE or SRP pistons for sure! 10:1 compression won't be optimal for the procharger it will detonate like crazy with very much boost! Maybe WELTERRACER will chime in here he has had a couple of bada** sbc!

[camcojb]

A 350 + .060 is a 360 cid, not a 388. It would be a 388 with a 3.75" stroke crankshaft.

The Performer is all wrong for the combo. I went the 5.85" rods on mine to avoid having the oil ring into the pin boss on the piston. SRP, JE are both good pistons. Use a quality forged piston and shoot for 9 to 9.25:1 compression if you're positive you're adding a ProCharger later. I use a ceramic barrier coating on the tops of the pistons in every blower motor I do; cheap insurance and not very expensive to do, plus let you run more boost/timing on pump gas.

The other area is the camshaft. A good blower cam for the street will be different than a normal street cam. Again, if you're sure a blower is in the future something in the mid 500's lift wise is fine, with maybe 236/246 duration @ .050 on a 114 lsa. The wider lobe separation and blower profile cam will build boost quicker on the street which really ups the part throttle power, plus better low-end.

Buy the best heads you can afford, especially having good exhaust flow. This motor may or may not make 450 HP naturally aspirated but with a P1SC or D1SC blower and 10-12 psi of boost it will fly.

Jody

[69 Muscle]

Thanks Jody for your suggestions. Are you suggesting a forged 4340 crank with a stroke of 3.75 and a 5.875 rods. And yes my block is 350 bored .060 over. SCAT offers full rotating assemblies crank, h beam rods all 4340 forged with SRP or JE pistons. And was going to run a big 540 lift cam. Can I go bigger or is this what will work best for this application. This is the first motor I have taken on from ground Zero to complete. No one likes my idea of using the existing performer manifold, what do you guys suggest? Edelbrock Air gap ? All help and suggestions are appreciated. Thanks Paul

[yody]

Jody pretty much nailed it, JE and SRP are the same CO. JE is their custom line, SRP are very nice pistons. Also decide if you are using a procharger or not and build accordingly. Go with a hydro roller but use a rev-kit to get to that 6,500rpm limit that you want. Cant' really call out any cam specs without knowing if you are going procharger or not. Coating the pistons is a good idea, dump the performer intake, an air gap is an excellent choice, but if going supercharged a vic jr. would also be a good choice. .039 is a good quench number to go for. Your questions are all over the place, if you want to do this correctly you need to start planning correctly, there are a couple of big decisions you need to decide first
1. stroker? 383 is a no brainer, it involves minor grinidng on the block to clear the crank, and sometimes small base circle cam
2. procharger or not? this will affect everything, compression, cam, head CC .
3. Then decide on compression, head size, and cam
4. then decide on the components like brands and such.
5. Now start doing all of your engine building research.
Make sepearte posts about your questions, that way they all get covered

[Travis B]

I'm with yody a Victor Jr. would be better for you app. procharger or no procharger!

[Lowend]

There is a lot to discuss here... first off, this ain't happening for $4K... if you are lucky you can build the shortblock for that.
Spend money on the connecting rods, those are generally what fail in apps like this. Plan on spending >$800 on just the rods (I like Crower www.crower.com ) I would stay with a 5.7" rod to keep the rings out of the piston pin

If you are even considering a supercharger than forged pistons are a must, and I agress with Jody you need to keep compression down to 9-1 or so

I personally would not attempt these powerlevels on a 60 over block... they start to get weak at 40 over and it can get pretty ugly.

I think you need to re-assess your budget

[69 Muscle]

Mu budget of 4k was just a starting point but agree 7k-8k looks about right. So with that said I am suppose to pick the block up from the machine shop in less than a week and it has already been taken .060 over, too late to go back now. I have never done a stoker motor b4 and was wondering how difficult the grinding can be, however I am sure I can get this accomplished. Yody Thanks for your all your help...
I was hoping to have around 9:5:1 or 10:1 compression..
The heads I was ordering were AFR aluminum 195c 68ci... From my research this is the only way to go..
Will probably go with the JE forged Pistons flat top and SCAT H beam connecting rods, but should I stay with 5.7 rod length?
Jody you are correct 350+.060+3.75 crank = 388 cu.. So would you all recommend going with the SCAT 4340 forged crank @ 3.75 stroke?
The ATI procharger with 3 core intercooler will not be an immediate addition, probably a year away but would like to build the motor so it is ready for it in the future..
Again cam thoughts would be appreciated, I am considering comp cams xtreme energy with around 540 lift and currently don't have the other specs in front of me.
I am not sure if this is the right choice.. I will go with the Edelbrock vic jr manifold if you think this will work best.. My goals for my 69 SS camaro I hope are still attainable with 450 plus hp and 550 plus torque. Thanks Paul

[69 Muscle]

Also what danger do run into trying to accomplish this amount of hp and torq on a 350 block that is .060 over. I was under the immpression that if I did it right, with the stongest parts and don't cut corners it would be fine and I could get 60000 miles out of the motor... Again I want all the power of the block , it will be at least a year until the procharger.
Thanks

[blown69nova]

What he is saying is that when you bore a factory block .060 over, the cylinder walls get too thin, which weakens the block and I think makes it harder to cool.
I suggest building a motor with the best parts you can afford, and build it as a blower motor right off the bat. Don't go any higher than 9:1 compression if you want any serious boost!

[69 Muscle]

Thanks blownnova, but I was under the impression that as long as u didn't go over 60 my wall thickness would be okay . Thanks Paul

[chicane67]

Dude, 0.060 over is considered "paper thin" for a cylinderwall thickness and at the cylinder pressure and power level of your proposed engine build.... you will most likely 'window' the block in no time at all.

First, you will need to know what the blocks sonic cylinder thickness is before you even consider what you are building. It has nothing to do with weather or not you spend 10k on a crank, rods and pistons.... if the block wont hold together, your 10k is useless, strongest parts or not. At a minimum for that cylinder pressure and power level, I wouldnt even use the block if any part of any cylinder was under 200-220.

And then your gonna stuff a ProCharger on it ??

Can you say broke ?? As in catastrophic failure ??

I am right there with Lowend. I believe you need to reassess your whole thought process on this build, unless you have money that you just want to throw away.

And a 0.540 camshaft is just scratching the surface to get to moderate power levels....

[Lowend]

Ok -
I would probably be looking at the AFR CNC Ported 210 heads. The extra port volume will serve you very well.

Shop for cams by duration not by lift. In general lift is the least important factor in selecting a cam. I would probably be looking for something similar to camcojb, 230/240@050 ish with a 114 Lobe Seperation. Crower has a line of Hyd-Roller cams that are designed for EFI that should be a good starting point.

The Scat crank is a good piece.
Forget the Scat rods, they won't stand up to what you are trying to do. Look at the Crower Stroker Sportsman Rods ( SSP93305B-8 ) bullet proof rod that is lightweight and will probably clear a conventional base circle cam .

I would probably look beyond the Vic Jr intake to the Super Victor, more plentum volume works nicely in supercharged engines.

The CompCams Pro Magum rockers are the best on the market for the $$ if you ask me, stay with a 1.52 ratio.

You NEED to stud the mains and consider a set of Milodon caps.

[69 Muscle]

Thanks Chicane67 you are not the first to tell my to have it checked for sonic cylinder thickness as you put it. In your opinion even if it is 200-220 are you suggesting that it won't handle the procharger? I do not want a catastrophic failure after all the time and money I put into this. I had considered a 502 big block but was told the changes to my 69 camaro would be to extensive and I have no idea what would need to be done to make it fit... Does anyone know exactly what it takes? Have been told that there are also several modifications that need to be done also after it fits and those can cost somewhere around 3k just to make it work properly. Is this true? Obviously I would rather go 502 rather than stroke this 350 but I am not knowledgable enough to know what mods need to be done to make it fit or to make it run.. Anyone have any ideas? Thanks Paul

[chicane67]

Stuffing a big block into a first gen is nothing new. In fact, its quite simple and is done quite often. The header fitment is the most common challenge, but Stahl headers took care of that 35+ years ago. Hooker also makes a decent set........ and Lemons headers..... and..... its not that hard at all. Id do a 502. Making it run is no different that the requirements of a small block. They all need fuel, air and spark.....

200-220 would be fine. But at 0.060 over, I dont think your gonna be there..... it really depends on the core shift..... but youll probably see numbers in the 190-195 range, which isnt too bad and I could live with that but wouldnt boost it too hard. Id step up to a better block, more like a bowtie at a minimum or even a Motown. It doesnt add too much to the final parts bill, but from that point, you can boost it all you want and beat the hell out of it...... with it laughing all the way.

[69 Muscle]

Chicane, won't I need to change the front end ie suspension to hold the extra weight? What about the crossmember? I think I would also have to change the driveline, and obviously upgrade the rear suspension.. Would you agree with all of this?
My 69 camaro x-11 is all original no mods or upgrades ever except for rear traction control. Again thanks for all your help. Paul

[chicane67]

If you build the small block your talking about....... your gonna need to replace all of that anyway at that power level. Small block or not, 500hp is 500hp and it will twist things up just the same...... with a slight advantage going toward the big block because of its natural torque production.

Front springs at a minimum, yes.
Cross member, maybe.... maybe not, depends on the transmission you are going to use.

[69 Muscle]

Thanks chicane, I was really hoping to avoid having to change all of that right now, but it is very easy to see that when you start building a pro touring car you need to do it right the first time. I really was hoping just to build an engine but it seems I just need to start the whole project and do it right.. I guess paint and body should be first.. then chassis and suspension and then motor and interior. Well I was thinking I was only a month out from back on the road maybe now it will be at least a year..
Thanks Paul.

[Roadrage David]

I disagree . if you whant to go realy fast and take fast corners and have high end speed . build yourself a 383 stroker . i just orderd one for my frind a 500/525 hp 500 lbs feet torque .73, 350 4 bold 30 over eagle stroker kit dart heads ported heavely comp cam xe 274(flat tapt cam) roller lifters roller rokkers ecetera ecetera . 6500/6700 rpm wil give you more high end speed over a big block the weight diferends makes you stop faster and able to break longer, it also corners mutchs faster . and 500 lbs feet of torque is plenty!!!!! forgive my spelling ....

[WELTERRACER]

CHECK OUT MY CAR UNDER THE VBGARAGE UNDER PROJECT JUST-N-SANE!

You will never get 575 hp out of a 350 without being very expensive and very radical.. unless you use a blower.. then you are talking about $8000 to put it all together!

[yody]

CHECK OUT MY CAR UNDER THE VBGARAGE UNDER PROJECT JUST-N-SANE!

You will never get 575 hp out of a 350 without being very expensive and very radical.. unless you use a blower.. then you are talking about $8000 to put it all together!

unless you buy cheaper components off of ebay :ripped: :moon: ......sorry man the old yody beat me up and took control of the keyboard! :help:

[69 Muscle]

Thanks for all of the help from everbody. You guys are the greatest and have given me enough to think about it.... I think i will probably sell my 350 block or let it be a nice piece that looks pretty in the garage.... Everyone needs to have a engine just sitting around.. So instead of project Big Power lets go to Project Big Block Swap..
Please see new Thread... Thanks Paul