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View Full Version : Oh crap, is Protouring becoming too mainstream?



yody
09-07-2004, 09:34 PM
Well, i don't know if this is a sign or something but Some dufus I know, told me today that on his 68 firebird that he was going to put 20" torque thrusts on the back of his 68 firebird. I told him that that was going to be detremental to handling and ride quality and that it might look funny since he will have 18's on the front. He said that he wants a protouring car, and that protouring cars don't care about going fast in a straight line and that they are supposed to have baer brakes and big wheels and that a lot of it is about looks!!!!! :banghead: :getout: I went on to tell him that protouring is the exact opposite, it is all about performance including straight line. And that protouring is about getting max performance at everything and still retain comfort and ride quality with all the latest improvements/amendities. I think with all the mag exposure and such that people think that protouring is just about lowered cars with big billet wheels and "Baer Brakes" :barf: I mean i am one to talk with 19" wheels but i do have tires that have just as much of a sidewall as any 18" tire. I always have bascically wanted/or built cars that did everything, handling,comfort,braking, drag racing, and the latest stuff. way before i even heard the term "pro-touring" but it wasn't till i found this site and started to hear the terms that the definition of what kind of cars i liked was born.(about 3 years ago) I really enjoy this style because it is original and different, i hate mainstream, i like to have something really cool and differnet, and it starting to seem that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.....which is fine, but it seems that a wide variety of people have no real idea what this is really about. Now my car isn't some one of a kind, everything fabricated, super duper car, but it is well thought out, very nice, car, that Is not just big wheels, brakes, autometer dash, and manual transmission. I think it is good pro-touring is getting bigger. but i hate to see it go the way of prostreet, and this guy just kinda pushed a button.

zbugger
09-07-2004, 09:35 PM
He's mistaking "Pro-Show" with Pro-Touring. He has to see the light. Maybe he will when he finally crashes because he's made his car undriveable.

jannes_z-28
09-07-2004, 10:12 PM
I think you are right,

I have seen many cars over here this summer with nothing more than tall wheels. It is patethic to see 17" TT2s and small drumbrakes behind them.

I beleive that many guys just think that ProTouring is only big wheels and that they haven't understood the concept in general.

We who "know" will be satisfied with what we are doing but it will for sure make us disappear in the crowd.

Common trends are often started by enthusiasts that take it to the limit, the followers usually takes the simpler approach.


A "real" Pro Touring car will stand out when the performance is shown.


Jan

yody
09-07-2004, 10:19 PM
yeah, hes the type of guy, who wants all the best/most expensive "bolt on" goodies, doesn't do any work of his own, and NEVER drives his car fast at all or push it in anyway, not that i condone street racing or anythign but i don't think he has ever raced anyone in his life. I think he is more into the bragging rights and the looks of nice parts. I think he should bolt on some tubular control arms, since they look so coooool! He should probably own a hotrod not a muscle car. I hate to rag on the guy,but at least he is in to amercan cars, even though his first car was a civic SI!!! I guess he is entitled to his own taste/opinion, but i don't think he should go around telling everyone he has a protougin car because he has an aluminum radiator, Baer brakes, and 20" torque thrusts

yody
09-07-2004, 10:22 PM
yeah i can't wait for all the top builders of show cars to start making "pro-touring" cars that never see any type of track/performance time, kinda like that yellow mustange that boyd built. I guess i want my cake and eat it to. Wouldn't it be great if there were a lot of aftermarket companies and lots of support for pro-touirng but still keep it a "different" style that wasn't mainstream. I just can't wait for the day where people ask my if my car is protouring than why don't i have baer brakes!

Martin71RS
09-08-2004, 12:21 AM
first corner will tell if it is PT or not.....
some dont consider my car PT (because I dont have baers or 400HP ?)....they just didn't see me drive yet :headbang:
Just let those guys THINK they have a PT car...
:hammer:

Martin

XcYZ
09-08-2004, 04:30 AM
The term Pro-Touring is thrown around way too much. It's becoming diluted, watered down. Here's a thought for you - so the guy with the firebird has stock suspension and wants to call it PT, and there's a guy here that wants to go PT with a 97 Mountaineer. With all the good parts bolted on the Mountaineer, it still won't run with the basically stock Firebird. See where I'm going? At what point does it go from being a Tuner (bolt on performance) to Pro-Touring?

Little Bob
09-08-2004, 04:52 AM
:dunno: Does anyone know what the true definition of Pro-Touring is. The reason I ask this question is, because I'm trying to build my car as a Pro-Tourer (if thats a word). But I still don't want to get lost in a croud of muscle cars with big wheels and tires. I want my car to handle as good as it's going to look. I used to do a lot of auto-x and time trials. I want my car to handle as good or better than my Neon Acr. I also want it to look like a kick ass show car too.

So the true definition would be great to know.

Thanks

XcYZ
09-08-2004, 05:29 AM
I'm with you, I want the total package. I want it to look as nice as it handles, I want it to accelerate as hard as it brakes.

As for a definition... I don't see how that would change anything that I'm doing. I have inspiration from several different types of racing, builders, and cars. I'm taking what I love about each and blending it in to my build.

MrQuick
09-08-2004, 07:29 AM
way before i even heard the term "pro-touring" but it wasn't till i found this site and started to hear the terms that the definition of what kind of cars i liked was born.(about 3 years ago) I really enjoy this style because it is original and different, i hate mainstream, i like to have something really cool and differnet, and it starting to seem that everyone is jumping on the bandwagon I think it is good pro-touring is getting bigger. but i hate to see it go the way of prostreet, and this guy just kinda pushed a button.
Yody, you gotta remember in a way we are all jumping on the band wagon. We are all building in this style,al beit some earlier than others.Growth is a normal factor with something new.
Ok it was ok when you got into it now you want it to stop growing?
Just because something is going mainsteam doesnt mean its not going to be fun for us. Remember a movement is only as strong as its practitioners.Pro street is still alive in some parts of the country just not as main stream as it use to be.
Lets try to educate that big rims on a car isn't pro-touring,it does seem to be a real common practice of hot rodding these days.
As far as bolt on stuff, I think im faily talented but I cant weld up good looking valve covers,weld up a custom intake,machine a transmission case or fab up a rear end girdle so where eles would these parts come from. I like throwing bolt on stuff. How eles would it go on? I don't think we should look down on each other cause we gotta pay to get a paint job or buy parts from a vendor. dont be afraid yody we got you :crying:

Chuck Byram
09-08-2004, 07:55 AM
I also thought I invented what's become Pro-Touring about three years ago. I wanted to build a race car for the street like Shelby did with the '65 and '66 Mustangs but with a/c and a killer stereo. Then I saw an article or two in PHR and CHP which led me to this site. The rest is history. I've always been somebody who wants to corner and stop as well as go fast. My '89 IROC is far from a finished product but it does have a full on Global West suspension, quick ratio steering setup, rebuilt and beefed up 700R4, Wilwood 13" front brakes and Michelin Pilot Sports for the Fikse 17s. I'm fairly handy but nobody mistakes me for a mechanic so most of the work on my car has been done by Lance Clontz and his guys at California Street Machine in Suisun City, CA. Good Lord willin' and the creek don't rise they're going to build me a motor soon.
I think the point is to enjoy what you're doing with the cars and not worry about the posers and wannabes. They'll come around as their knowledge (and budgets) grow. If they don't, oh well. Knowledgeable folks like yourself will always be able to look at a car and know it for what it is.
Best,
Chuck

Little Bob
09-08-2004, 07:58 AM
Yody, you gotta remember in a way we are all jumping on the band wagon. We are all building in this style,al beit some earlier than others.Growth is a normal factor with something new.
Ok it was ok when you got into it now you want it to stop growing?
Just because something is going mainsteam doesnt mean its not going to be fun for us. Remember a movement is only as strong as its practitioners.Pro street is still alive in some parts of the country just not as main stream as it use to be.
Lets try to educate that big rims on a car isn't pro-touring,it does seem to be a real common practice of hot rodding these days.
As far as bolt on stuff, I think im faily talented but I cant weld up good looking valve covers,weld up a custom intake,machine a transmission case or fab up a rear end girdle so where eles would these parts come from. I like throwing bolt on stuff. How eles would it go on? I don't think we should look down on each other cause we gotta pay to get a paint job or buy parts from a vendor. dont be afraid yody we got you :crying:

I don't think Yody has a problem with bolting things on to create a car. Just look at his car. It has a big block Chevy in a Pontiac and Corvette brakes. It also has a lot of other bolt on's too. None of which take away from the car. The only thing I could not find is; a roll cage. So does this car have any track time, can't tell. I personally think people should be able to create what ever they want to. Everyone works just as hard as everyone else. Lets not put labels on people for what they drive. Just because I drive an Integra GSR to work every day. Doesn't make me a "Ricer". I like to be able to do 140 mph when I want and still get great gas milage. Maybe some people can't afford to do the dollar projects that are on this site. I know I can't. So watch those people and advise them to what they are doing so they don't waste thier money or get hurt.

All gear heads need to stick together.

RobM
09-08-2004, 08:00 AM
Hi im rob i used to post as faststcarinschool on the old board. I think we should all just build the cars the way we like them and forget about this classification stuff, now im all about pro-touring/g-machine performance, but im not building my car to fit a class. I just know that my car will turn and stop and accelerate as well as my current driving skills and funds will alow. If this guy is all about looks then let him be that way he wont give good handling cars a bad name. just because his car lacks performance and suposedly gives pro-touring a bad name because he has stock suspension and "pathetic" drum brakes doesnt mean any of our cars are less cool or well engineered

RatMalibu
09-08-2004, 08:36 AM
I follow the "Pro-Mine" trend......if someone doesn't like it, eh well they're not driving it :D

Little Bob
09-08-2004, 08:44 AM
I follow the "Pro-Mine" trend......if someone doesn't like it, eh well they're not driving it :D

I like the Pro-Mine attitude. :cool: Everyone should have that attitude.

slck6t9
09-08-2004, 09:44 AM
Is there a step by step checklist we wonna-be's are suppose to follow and until we fill in all the squares we can't consider our cars pro-touring? If that's the case the percentage of real pro-touring cars on this site is pretty low. I've only seen a couple of cars that could classify as having the "checklist" filled out. Don't get me wrong I would like to have everything that is said to be on a car to make it pro-touring but money is an object and always will be for that matter. Until then I would like to consider myself as trying and be on that pro-touring band wagon. I'm also of the belief of the it's Pro-Mine attitude. Just my little feelings.

Scott

yody
09-08-2004, 10:03 AM
Vince; I didnt' say i didn't want protouring to stop growing, as a matter of fact i said i hoped it didn't. My main problem is that there a bunch of dufus's out there building halfway cars and going duhh, and telling everyone its protouring, in effect i can see the general population being uninformed and ruining the name protouring.
I also never said i invented protouring, I merely stated that this was the type of cars i liked and all of the attributes of protouring style cars was what i wanted. I think the influence came from really liking italian/german high end cars when i was little. I used to get the really big books and memorize all the specs on them. Then i met muscle cars and kinda put the two together. I had never built has a high end car as this before due to money constraints. Also this site and the internet in general has greatly inabled me to learn more and really find the way "how" to build a car like this. Yes there are plenty of bolt ons on my car. The brakes were not a bolt on, and an engine isn't really a bolt on, most everything on my car is somewhat universal and wasn't really meant to bolt directly on the car, except for anything left that is stock. But it is not nearly as radical as many cars on this site. But i think this car will be a tranistion car for me. I am only 23 and have a ton more time to build something more radical. I really like highly detailed cars, and that came over going the radical way on some things. Also when I started the car it wasn't going to be nearly this expensive or complicated. Now next time, I can set out to build a car entirely, and preplan everything and hopefull build a radical car that isn't just a typical first gen camaro with your average goodys. There is nothing wrong with bolt ons, people put aftermarket bolt on front clips, aftermaket bolt on rear suspension(well actuall weld on) bolt on kits to drop in LS1's already engineered, bolt on adapters for T56's, bolt on tubular control arms, bolt on hydroboost, bolt on custom dashs(made mine myself, no on makes one for my car) bolt on custom seats, even pre made roll bars. So most of the time everything is going to "bolt on" i mean what else is going to hold your car together rather than bolts?? The problem is when people bolt on one or 2 simple things and suddenly think there car has made a transformation! I got me Baer brakes which are really just C4 calipers wiht someones crosdrilled rotors, and some tubular control arms and some 20's. Now i can tell everyone my car is a major handling car built as a protouring machine! :hammer: Obvioulsy there aint much i can do rather than inform them(which I did) but i thought i would vent a little
p.s. i didn't put a rollbar in the car, because 1. the car wasn't planned from the begining and i didn't think i would go that far and 2. you don't necessarily need a roll bar to go to the track for the day and 3. it is a mostly street car and i don't want to have to climb in and out over some bar. It guaranteed will go to the track. That doesnt necessarily mean i am going to be driving a race car, it is going to take me a few tries before i even now what i am doing as far as driving skills on a track go. Maybe i willl get hooked and build a car way more radical for the track?

yody
09-08-2004, 10:06 AM
also I think that if you aren't sure if you car is protouring then it probably isn't, there is no need for a checklist, it is more of an idea, or an all around basis of how you build the car. that is true there are many on here that are new to the site and there cars reflect it, but they are learning and seem to want to change the way their cars are to become more protouring style.

ZZ430
09-08-2004, 10:19 AM
Hi im rob i used to post as faststcarinschool on the old board. I think we should all just build the cars the way we like them and forget about this classification stuff, now im all about pro-touring/g-machine performance, but im not building my car to fit a class. I just know that my car will turn and stop and accelerate as well as my current driving skills and funds will alow. If this guy is all about looks then let him be that way he wont give good handling cars a bad name. just because his car lacks performance and suposedly gives pro-touring a bad name because he has stock suspension and "pathetic" drum brakes doesnt mean any of our cars are less cool or well engineered

Well said.

yody
09-08-2004, 10:28 AM
well the meaning of this post wasnt' really about whether we should or not classify our cars. If you don't want a classification; more power to you, there is nothing wrong with that. The point is when people start throwing around the term. What if guys with honda civics started putting baer brakes and billet wheels on their cars and called them protouing? would you still want to be affialiated with the term protouring? that is what this is really all about, if people are going to start building lame cars and calling them protouring then i don't want my car to be called protouring also, i want to keep it different. But in the end it does make the most sense to not classify your car, but sometimes it is easier to label rather than explain.

Little Bob
09-08-2004, 10:57 AM
I just don't understand why the missunderstanding. I see more problems happen because of people and thier attitudes towards other people and thier cars. When I go to shows and cruises certain newer cars are not aloud to attend. But if someone with a new vette shows up. They are led wright in. I don't understand this. We all love cars and the performance they have. Yes, some cars are more show than go, but it shouldn't matter. I've run into those type of people that throw the Pro-Touring label around. But it's just because they are just trying to fit in. I love the car world because of the imagination and craftmanship people put into thier cars and truck or what ever. I don't care if it a Honda, Chevy, Pontiac or what ever. The same amount of work goes into everyone vehical. If this is how people are going to be about the Pro-Touring scene, count me out. I started building my car because of another GTO on this site. I will always build things my way. If I add a label than thats fine. I like the aspect of a car that handles and performes as good as it looks. But I also want to be able to drive it across the country if I want too. I hope the Pro-Touring scene is not as narrow minded as you are. Forgive me for being so blunt, but I can't stand to see people put down for thier so called lack of knowledge. We all could take a lesson from this thread. I myself will be more open minded towards other people and thier vehicals.

I'm done for now.

ps
forgive any spelling mistakes

Stu Seitz
09-08-2004, 11:34 AM
I follow the "Pro-Mine" trend......if someone doesn't like it, eh well they're not driving it :D


Ditto, I couldn't have said it better my self. A lot of people in my auto classes said I was making a big mistake by putting a small LS1 in my car, instead of a big block :hammer: .

Pro-touring towncar
09-08-2004, 11:59 AM
there's a guy here that wants to go PT with a 97 Mountaineer. With all the good parts bolted on the Mountaineer, it still won't run with the basically stock Firebird.

That would be me. I will lay money down that a Saleen XP8( explorer) would out run with a basicly stock firebird. Well the definition of pro-touring that I read out of Tony H's book was taking a vehicle that had moderate performance( all around , handling,brakes Etc) and improving on it. That is what I was wanting to do with a mountaineer, and I AM doing with my town car.

Like it says above it is pro-mine if you don't like it :slap: :moon: :moon: :LOL:

Tim

Ralph LoGrasso
09-08-2004, 01:16 PM
Yody,

Two things. One, you've been PM'd by two moderators and asked to resize your sig pic as well as asked in atleast 1 thread. It was removed for a reason, please resize it to 75x250 pixels or it will be removed again.

Secondly,

The car your friend wants to build is borderline pro-touring. Big brakes and billet wheels, are the tip of the iceburg, you really need upgraded suspension to be a pro-touring car, even if it's just bigger sway bars, and stiffer springs that also lower the car. Everything else is really preference. However, modified suspension is a must.

Some people probably won't consider my car pro-touring, it's more of a race car with plates or a street fighter if you ask me. Only the bare essentials in the interior, carpet included, 12pt modded cage, NO A/C or other comforts, no bumpers, no heat, 20 pistons stopping the car, and 18" 3 piece forged wheels. 4 Wheel coilovers with tubular upper/lower arms up front and a 3-link out back. The car will have a small removable stereo, though.

What's pro-touring and what isn't can be debated. Pro-touring is really taking an older muscle car and making it perform like a new vette, all the while maintaining a decent level of comfort. To some, a stout engine, 17" wheels, better brakes, sway bars, and the guldstrand mod is all a pro-touring car they need, and it definitely is pro-touring.


As for the "bolt-on" arguement. Like you said, everything to a degree is a bolt-on. However, welding in a rear suspension and a coilover kit up front, does not constitue bolt ons, just because it was available in kit form. Rather, leaf spring rears, and "bolting" on tubular control arms up front is more what the term bolt-on refers to.

yody
09-08-2004, 01:45 PM
I think some of you are taking my post the wrong way. First off, I don't think i or anybody on this site is "narrow minded" I to like all types of makes models of cars. I like supras,WRX's, Porshces, Dodge station wagons, muscle cars, hotrods etc.... I enjoy them all. The label of a style of car is something that you can identify with, in the long run it makes no difference, and no one here or myself is saying that this is some sort of special club. There are people here with mostly drag cars, some with big cadillacs, some with lincoln towncars etc.. The problem I had was with the "misunderstanding" of what protouring is about, and how people wiht no real clue are starting to pick up on the term/style. I personally feel like anyone is welcome and I hope the trend grows even more, but I think before people start spewing out at the mouth about this and that have a full understanding of what this is. One of the many thinks I enjoy about protouring is that it is different. I personally don't want my car categorized with cars that are just for looks. The guy stated that he was building a protouring car and that it didn't need to go fast in a straight line, or perform to its best, just that it had big rims and brakes, which in my opinion does NOT make a car protouring, can he like protouring and build his car in that fashion as he goes along? Can he participate? Of course!, but understand what this is about before you go "represent" protouring to everyone. Does it really matter if your car meets protouring standards...NO as long as you are happy with your car is what matters, just don't represent you car falsly and spread ignorance. My main point here is that it seems Protouring is getting more popular day by day, and that the downfall could be that a lot of the general car population seem to think it is all about big wheels and brakes, and that people should be informed better before labeling their car. Hopefully the people here will be able to inform the public as this trend gets bigger what protouring is all about. There is no real definition, and after all it is a label, but it is also a style, that some of us enjoy and take pride in and don't want to see it disgraced.
Now Ralph, I did resize my pic, it is 180x100, i don't know much about the pixel stuff but wouldn't that end up being less pixels total than 250x75? or am i supposed to make it look like a ruler? let me know, thanks. ALso i enjoyed your post. I resptecfully disagree that the big break/wheel thing qualifies for protouring, and you are correct that he is buidlign the car "towards" the protouing style, which in itself makes it protouring, but he had no real idea what protouring even was. I think you are more right than you think about being a street rod, that is a perfect description for him, for some reason he wants all the high performance parts like hydrboost, baer alcons, but doesnt' even need them?? i guess for looks. Yes his car might end up similar to mine, but only because he wants every single thing on my car, on his! My suspesnion isn't anything super fancy;
stock upper and lower control arms with del a lum bushings, Hothckis springs, bilstein shocks, hothckis 1 3/8 hollow sway bar, C5 brakes, Hydroboost, AGR steering box, Lee's remote res. P pump, filter, and resevoir, Global west body mounts, Global west style welded in subframe connectors, welded to both frames and body, multi leaf dearched leaf springs with delalum in both front and rear eyelets, no rear sway bar, and bilstein shocks on the back. Pretty simple but should be effective

Nine Ball
09-08-2004, 03:16 PM
The phrase "pro-touring" is tossed around too easily now. Anyone that attended any large events like Bristol Bash or Power Tour will know that. I absolutely HATE torque-thrust 2 wheels now because of how people slap on a set of 17s and call their car pro-touring. I've seen guys with completely stock (slow POS) 1st gens with stock suspensions and drum brakes put 17" TT2 wheels on their car and call it pro-touring. UGGGGH!

I'm more interested in the Pro-Haul Ass type car. If it doesn't haul ass, I won't be swayed by the bling/show/polish factor of it as much. I want both, but with the priority on performance. Mine is more of a "Pro-Drag" car, as I fully intend to buy a set of 15" Bogarts and slicks and race the hell out of mine when it is done. The billet wheels are for shows and street cruising only :D

Tony

XcYZ
09-08-2004, 03:30 PM
You know, I should Pro-Tour my 3/4 ton crew cab truck. Baer makes some brakes for it, I can add a Magnacharger to the 6.0 LS motor, it already has overdrive and EFI. Lower it a touch, put some 18's on it, and I'm all set. But, I'm sure everyone here would agree that it wouldn't be Pro-Touring, and that's the point I'm trying to make with a bit of humor. :)

I don't care about the labels. I'm not here to be classified. I'm here to hang out with some guys that are kick ass car builders. There are some guys here that are building unreal cars. People's engineering skills are way more interesting that the ability to classify or label a car. So please give up on trying to convince the rest of us what is and what isn't Pro-Touring. Don't start wars to split this hobby into different factions and turn Pro-Touring into Con-Touring.

Ralph LoGrasso
09-08-2004, 04:42 PM
Yody,

Tony made a thread in the multimedia section where he resized and hosted your sig pic for you.

I agree with you ALOT that big brakes and big wheels aren't what pro-touring is about. I should have worded what I said better, big brakes and big wheels qualify for pro-touring, but it's not going to be considered pro-touring unless the entire package is present. If he does after market A-arms, and similar suspension to what you have done on your car, then yes, it will be pro-touring. ALTHOUGH, he may treat the car as a street rod, IE cruising around, and never really going to the track or drag strip.

Back to the arguement at hand, the term pro-touring is way to thrown around as it has already been stated. This is why when people ask me what kind of a car I'm building, I reply with either a "Hardcore G-Machine" or a "Street Fighter". Usually I need to explain to them what those terms mean, and why my car is going to be in that style (eg: components). If I had said pro-touring, one person may think I have stock discs, and bigger wheels, along with some mild suspension work. Another person more in the "know" might think that the car could be a really serious pro-tourer and ask me more details.

Don't get caught up in classifications, it's too hard to do with pro-touring because of all the options/preferences/build styles. Pro-Touring is a spin off of pro-street but, it's much easier to know a pro-street car when you see one. HUGE meats out back, tubbed out, and a very stout engine is really in an essence pro-street. You won't find many guys with stock 69 Camaros with the stock 350/350 and a set of 15x9.5 ET streets calling his car a pro-street. G-Machines is a much better term in many cases. What we're doing is building machines (automobiles) that are designed to pull G's in the corners. (As well as other things).

slck6t9
09-08-2004, 06:15 PM
Scott (XcYZ), well said. :cheers: Now can we all have a cold beer and get back to building great cars...

Scott

TonyHuntimer
09-08-2004, 06:34 PM
Well,

When I go any place and see a vehicle (foreign or domestic - car or truck), I try to see the time invested and appreciate it. If I see a car with no work done to it besides wheels and tires, I look and move on. If it has a ton of work, I stop and gawk. I give credit where credit is due.

If the guy thinks big wheels and tires makes his car a Pro-Touring car...Oh well. We can't save everyone. :) Tell them to buy my book.

If someone tells you that your car can't be Pro-Touring because it's too new, Oh well. They don't have to drive it.

This forum was and still is for giving friendly opinions and support for Pro-Touring enthusiasts. Negativity breeds fast. Let's keep this family headed in the right direction. Open your minds. :)

Take care,
Tony Huntimer
RaceHome.com

P.S. The Pro-Touring car building style JUST MAKES SENSE, so it will get more popular as time goes on.

yody
09-08-2004, 09:52 PM
Okay, I am not trying to convince anyone what protouring is or isn't, and this post wans't about classifying cars, i am also not trying be negative and scare anyone, I am only stating that Protouring is becoming more popular and that there are a lot of uninformed people claiming there car is a protourer just because of big brakes/wheels AND the fact was that this guy didn't even know what protouirng was about, he said he didn't want to go fast in a straight line because he has a protouring car. That is it, plain and simple I must not be able to write out my thoughts very well because a lot of you are taking this the wrong way. Sorry for that, i wish i could write more clearly or maybe actually have people read what i am saying. I think we should all just be happy with our cars, fortunately everyone on this site is knowledgable and intelligent unlike this goober that i deal with. A lot of us have put in a lot of work and been very creative and researched and studied a lot to belong to this board and represent protouring to its best. I just don't like to see it belittled by goobers who have no idea what they are talking about. Good luck on everyones builds and cars no matter what you classify it as, just build it so you will be proud and like it!

yody
09-08-2004, 09:55 PM
better Ralph? you might need your reading glasses to see it though

Little Bob
09-09-2004, 04:46 AM
Yody,

I would like to apologize for the narrow minded thing. Sometimes I get to involved in what I'm writing. I just would like to see all types of vehical owners get together and enjoy the hobby.


Thanks

gchandler
09-09-2004, 10:16 PM
Ahh and I remember a time when people thought that I was crazy for putting 17" rims on my chevelle. I don't know if I am a huge fan of low profile tires, but it is really hard to find 15" tires with any sort of speed rating at all.

So does a car qualify as pro touring if it has upgraded suspension, engine and transmission, but has 4 wheel drum brakes and 15" rims?

Salt Racer
09-10-2004, 08:16 AM
...So does a car qualify as pro touring if it has upgraded suspension, engine and transmission, but has 4 wheel drum brakes and 15" rims?

Not sure about 4-wheel drums, but in my book, yes. Depending on how it's setup, cars like described above (think old T/A cars with AC and stereo) are more in line with pro-touring theme than a car with Corvette IFS/IRS, blingy 20" rims, and air springs for example. To me, it's overall packaging that counts - components are selected based on functionality and compatibility with the rest of parts (I don't consider "wow-ing crowd" as a function - showcars are polished paper weights on wheels IMO).

Does anyone still have an issue of Chevy Hi magazine from Spring of mid '90s? (April '97-ish issue, I think) IIRC, that was the very first time the term "Pro Touring" was used in a magazine. So I'd say the definitions described by Jeff Smith in that particular issue are the Original definitions of Pro Touring. Damn, remembering this made me feel old...

Q ship
09-10-2004, 12:21 PM
I'll look for that mag when I get home tonight.

TitoJones
09-11-2004, 06:08 AM
I still glance at that CHP.

On the cover-
!!EXCLUSIVE!! Pro-Touring. What is it? Why you'll love it!

Inside:
FAST TALK
What is Pro Touring?
Pro-Touring is a 10-mile length of canyon road with no opposing traffic.
Pro Touring is an as-far-as-the-eye-can-see stretch of Montana Freeway, a full tank of gas, and overdrive transmission, and a tail wind.
Pro Touring is being proud of those rock chips all over your lower control arms.
Pro Touring is driving up the coast of California on a summer day with a stout small-block under the hood, a great-handling car, and your favorite lady by your side.
Pro Touring is being proud of your Bonderant-taught skill of the heel-and-toe-double-clutch-downshift technique.
Pro Touring is knowing what a Bonderant-taught skill of the heel-and-toe-double-clutch-downshift is and how to do it.
Pro Touring is knowing you apexed that corner better than you ever have before.
Pro Touring is entering that same corner a little bit faster the next time, just to see if you can.
Pro Touring is constantly looking for an excuse to demonstrate how your Baer-braked Camaro can rearrange your passenger's internal organs with a massive dose of deceleration.
Pro Touring is knowing you can dust that smug clown in the Porsche in any number of different ways without even braking a sweat.
Pro Touring is calling the Pony Express 100 for an entry form.
Pro Touring means having to constantly answer the question, "How did you make those monster tires fit?"
Pro Touring is knowing you'll need a killer oil cooler.
Pro Touring is a heck of a lot more seat time than drag racing.
Pro Touring is scouting the road race pits for ideas for your street car.
Pro Touring is wishing you had a dry sump because the high lateral g's are literally making the oil climb the walls of the oil pan.
Pro Touring is wondering what aerodynamic tricks will be needed to push a '67 Camaro to 200 mph.
Pro Touring is all the right reasons for building brake ducts on your early Nova street car. Pro Touring is making those mods to your own '67 Camaro to see what happens to an early Camaro at 175 mph.
Pro Touring is so cool that Tommy Kendall wants to drive your car!
Pro Touring is a good excuse not to go straight.
Pro Touring is power steering, power brakes, and A/C for all the right reasons.
Pro Touring is spending more time enjoying your car than working on it.
Pro Touring is just plain fun.
Jeff Smith (Chevy High Performance April 1998)

I must have read this issue 300 times. I used to sit in my room and dream of what I would do to my 68. I tried to keep this description in my head when I starting to build 50/50. I think my car fits 90% of that article.

Pro Touring
The hottest new street-machine trend.

You hear it before you see it. The scream of a finely tuned small-block effortlessly upshifting is one of the sweetest songs you've ever heard. You stand at the apex of the corner, waiting for this screaming machine to approach. Suddenly the RPM note changes as the driver downshifts. A Camaro charges into view, obviously straining under heavy braking but rock-steady. Yet instead of a full-blood race car, the machine drifing through the turn at the ragged edge of adhesion is a street car. It isn't a down-in-the-weeds Trans-Am race car, but it smokes through the corners as if-under the skin-it is one. In a nanosecond the Camaro has negotiated the turn, applied power, upshifted, and disappeared. The face of street machining has just changed for the better.

What a classic article!! It had 3 renderings on the main page, one of Kyle and Stacy Tucker's Twister 69 Camaro, one of Ty Woodhall's Foose designed 68 Camaro Orange Peel, and Mark Stielow's 69 Camaro, the Thrasher.

Wow, PT has been around for a while. The cars back then were too cool. One of my favorites to this day is Mark's 67 Camaro, the Red Witch. If Charley ever sells it (yeah right) I want to be in line to bid for it.
Tyler

yody
09-11-2004, 09:38 AM
dang you had to rewrite all that??!!

TitoJones
09-11-2004, 09:46 AM
dang you had to rewrite all that??!!
Yep. But if you hadn't ever seen that issue, you now know why we were all hooked!!
Tyler

harshman
09-11-2004, 10:55 AM
I think I just found another reason to get my butt in the garage and finish all of my little projects so that I can do all of what that said.
Thanks Tyler for putting that on the table.

malibu9in
09-12-2004, 05:16 AM
I thingk my car has lots of triats as being a pro touring car. But its not. Its more a show car . Cause i like it that way. Its not on a trailer. Its driven....hard like yesterday at god knows how fast on the way back from a show. It also has air ride...so it dosent handle as good as some but the bigger sway bars and poly mounts everywhere and a arms will make up some of the diff . Ahhh..with all that said i need to go yanks the tranny cause of no second gear..i guess that new supercharger took its toll...HAHAH

Nine Ball
09-13-2004, 06:36 AM
Just a suggestion, but might be somewhat corny (or not?). We have enough influential "Pro-Touring" members here (maybe ALL of them?) that we could come up with that checklist of specifications and come up with our own less-mainstream branding of these vehicles.

If someone came up with the branding "Pro-Touring" then surely we could all come up with something else that better defines what WE want it to mean. If there are a set of specific characteristics (maybe 10?) and a vehicle had 7 of 10 of those specific modifications, it would be considered "Insert New Label Here" and there would be no argument.

We could form this new group as to capture the more elite of the pro-touring examples, and seperate them from being grouped with the wanna-be examples.

Just an idea :D

Bill Howell
08-25-2005, 04:01 PM
Just a suggestion, but might be somewhat corny (or not?). We have enough influential "Pro-Touring" members here (maybe ALL of them?) that we could come up with that checklist of specifications and come up with our own less-mainstream branding of these vehicles.

If someone came up with the branding "Pro-Touring" then surely we could all come up with something else that better defines what WE want it to mean. If there are a set of specific characteristics (maybe 10?) and a vehicle had 7 of 10 of those specific modifications, it would be considered "Insert New Label Here" and there would be no argument.

We could form this new group as to capture the more elite of the pro-touring examples, and seperate them from being grouped with the wanna-be examples.

Just an idea :D

I was just doing some research and ran across this thread. Tony had a valid post and suggestion here. Maybe his idea is still worth looking at.
This should be mandatory reading for newbies. Might just slow the continual "What is Protouring?" threads.

Steve1968LS2
08-25-2005, 04:25 PM
How about g-Machine?

:lmao:

Damn True
08-25-2005, 04:59 PM
I dunno, judging someone elses hot rod using your own standard is kinda like judging someone elses wife/girlfriend compared to your own standard.

If the other dude thinks it's/she's hot and it/she makes him happy and he loves it/her who are you or I to say that it isn't hot, shouldn't make him happy and that he shouldn't love it just the way it is?

I don't care much for Mopars, but I'll be damned if I'm going to tell another dude that he shouldn't be stoked about his ride simply because I don't care for it.

Now.....rice......that's another story.

yody
08-25-2005, 05:14 PM
this again??

TonyL
08-25-2005, 05:32 PM
no. just a point about the checklist idea.

But before long, we, (pro-touring/g-machines.com) will be presenting everyone with a once and for all definition that will put this baby to rest. Some people just "need" to put their car in a category. I prefer: Done/Not Done, seems everyones car fits in there somewhere.

Orngcrush69
08-25-2005, 05:54 PM
I personally use the site for the tech ideas and we're pretty serious about making my car handle, and we have incorparated TONS of info!!!... I run my car on the track. If people like the site, set there cars up pro-touring style, and choose not to put them on the track, I think that's fine, because it gets the word out.

Roger Poirier
08-26-2005, 01:45 AM
Why can't a pro touring car have 20" rims. My rear tire size is 275.35.20

It measures 27.58 inch high. My old 215.70.15 measured 26.85

Less then a 1 inch difference. Doesn't Sickfish and other top name cars using 20" rims. Do they not handle as well as an 18" tire?

Why are they using 19" on new Corvettes and 911's? Do you not get a better handling car with low profile tires?

I have all the suspension, trans, steering and brake upgrades, plus show quality in every detail of the car. I did go with stock interior, and a simple underneath paint as I will be driving the car once completed.

However, I have way two much money invested to take it to the track. I have a Mustang Saleen for that if I choose. If I don't take the GTO to the track I'm I none Pro -Touring?

I'm just trying to get a better understanding of it all. Your guys thoughts on all this would be appreciated.

Thanks, R.P.

68LSS1
08-26-2005, 02:01 AM
I usually don't post in these threads but would like to say a few things. I see and even agree where Yody is coming from but having said that, everyone has to start somewhere. Right now I'm building a truck. It's not meant to be a true PT car but I wanted to build a GM version of the Ford Lightning.....but better. Capable of being a daily driver and having the best all around performance I could build into. When I started this project there wasn't a lot of information out there that I found. By the time I had found this site I had already purchased the Fatman Fabrications front suspension and the HTH improvement kit for the stock trailing arm rear. I cannot afford to go back to the drawing board so to speak and will have to make the best out of what I've already purchased. Had I found this sight prior to making those purchases I probably would of gone another route. But because of this site I am learning almost everyday new things that will help me on my next project. Because of this site I purchased Herb Adams book. I'm not going to say I understand everything in it but as time goes on more and more makes sense. I recently got a "Introduction To Race Car Engineering" and both of Tony's books. Next I want to get Katz's book. Because of this site I'm modifying the cross member where the trailing arms attach to to make it adjustable and incorporate mono ball bushings. Because of this sight I would like to check into having some a-arms made for the Mustang II set up I'm using. I even have the Baer brakes that John Parsons had when he started out using a Mustang II suspension on his project. I don't think you can just buy parts and build a PT type car without some understanding or at least trying to understand suspension theory. I don't think one has to be a engineer (but it may help) as the vendors take care of a lot of that for us. Assembling the various vendors components or fabbed parts together to make the PT car is what differentiates how well that car will do on the track based on the owners knowledge (if built by the owner) not taking into account skill on the track. I plan on putting the truck on the track and that will be any track, straight or with curves. My biggest point here is the knowledge I will have gained from applying these things that I have learned will allow me to go farther on the next project.
I think Yody just wants to make the point that a couple bolt ons do not make a PT car with which I agree. Some of us have/are putting a lot of time and effort into understanding bump steer, anti squat, etc and have come to learn what stock suspensions are capable of (or not). I know there will always be PT cars built on small to major budgets from bolt ons to totally fabbed parts and that is fine. We just need to keep in mind what a true PT build should be after. If it's a show car with all the bells and whistles that never sees a track, then props to the owner. Copying is a major form of flattery but giving the visual impression of a PT car does not make it PT car. There where quite a lot of the Pro Street cars out there that also were basically visually Pro Street cars. In my opinion if it's a Pro Street car there better be some 1/4 mile times to back the look up. If it was running 12 second quarters then although it might of been a nice car, it wasn't a true Pro Street car. That's what they were based on. With Protouring cars it's harder to judge based on a performance number. We don't have a standard, a specific race course and that will never happen. Sorry if I put words in Yody's mouth, my intent was to try and help explain what I interpreted that he meant. Education, education, education. That's what will keep the PT movement going in the right direction. From the beginners with small budgets on.
Everybody mentions not getting hung up on classifications with which I agree. But a modded car may not be a PT car. It may just be a modded car. It should have certain mods to be considered PT. They don't have to be the highest tech or most expensive but a definitely wheels, brakes and suspensions upgrades should be the minimal to be considered PT. Or why even have a PT classification? We could all just be in the modded cars classification. The modifications we choose to do are meant to achieve a certain end result. If your not after that certain end result then your not building a PT car. I think this goes along with Ralph's definition and Tony's explanation (by questions) in his books.
This comes from a noob who respects a lot of people on this board and who hopes to attain a portion of the knowledge that is displayed daily here. I respect those people first, because of their knowledge though. :)

68protouring454
08-26-2005, 04:47 AM
where is boringville, i think i should come there and start over.

gEtyOpAPiOn
08-26-2005, 07:11 AM
Well My Car Is Not The Best In The World But I Come Out Sideways Out My Driveway Everytime Hhaha ...when I Started Workin On My Car I Didnt Even Know Of Pro-touring But Already Knew What I Wanted ....when I Found This Website Thats When It Helped Me Move Foward With My Project Because The Lack Of People Interested In Building Cars The Pro Touring Way ...and I Would Hate For Pro-touring Becoming An Average Car Style Because Then We Wont Be Unique Anymore And Would Have To Learn Something Else Haha

wantahertzdonut
08-26-2005, 08:05 AM
I'm building my car to drive good, look good, and be fun and enjoyable. Call it what you want!

This has been my plan for years. I don't intend to fall into any category, I just want to enjoy driving my car.

JLM
08-26-2005, 09:21 AM
The way I see it there are 2 basic types of builds going on around this board.

Group A consists of people building cars that will be driven...hard, as well as raced on the track (drag, auto x, open course). These individuals are purpouse building the car to suite these needs.

Group B consists of individuals that are building more car show oriented vehicles. They are putting nice parts on the car but generally it isn't going to built purpously for a race track. They are going to have very nice interiors, professional paint etc. This group is sometimes labeled as the "poser" group but I really don't think that's correct or even fair. These people just want a more rounded vehicle than the stock platform but like people to look at the vehicle from an artisan standpoint (ie carshow).

In either case there isn't anything wrong with either direction. As long as you the owner are happy with the end result.

And that's what's so hard about coming up with a classification system. If anything I think the distinction should be race vs show. Some people build to race, some people build to show.

yody
08-26-2005, 09:32 AM
just so everyone knows this is an old thread that has been brought back. Roger 20" rims don't necessarily not make your car PT, the guy I was talking about was throwing them on a stock car with stock supsension. You have to read exactly what i was saying, altough you will get a better hanlding car with 17's/18's. The weight of the wheel and the super low pro tire is not a good thing. Also sickfish IMO would not be considered pro-touring whatsoever, that car probably handles like crap, the shortened the control arms in the front just to help clear the tires, then they have a 4 link in the back with links that are about 12" long! Plus I believe they have an all iron hemi motor in it. BTW I love that car, I have the build book and read it all the time!

JLM
08-26-2005, 09:33 AM
Why can't a pro touring car have 20" rims. My rear tire size is 275.35.20

It measures 27.58 inch high. My old 215.70.15 measured 26.85

Less then a 1 inch difference. Doesn't Sickfish and other top name cars using 20" rims. Do they not handle as well as an 18" tire?



Sorry for the double post but I wanted to touch on this as well.

There's nothing to say that a PT car can't have 20" wheels. However they do have certain performance limitations.

The problem with large wheels is the introduction of rotating mass. The majority of the mass of a wheel/tire combination is the wheel itself. As mass expands outward the inertial forces to move the mass grow (almost at an exponential rate). For instance a 17" wheel that weighs 30 lbs including the tire will be quite a bit easier to turn than a 20" wheel that also weighs 30 lbs with tire.

*Does anybody know the equation for figuring rotational mass?*

So to get the same acceleration you've got to have more power. With the reduced sidewall to acheive the same total wheel diameter you loose grip and road holding power. This degrades acceleration due to traction. This then would effect you at the drag strip and on an auto x and open road course where corner exit speeds would be reduced.

So the key here is balance. What you might gain by having a stiffer sidewall on a 20" wheel you might loose in acceleration. Where as with a 17" wheel what you might gain in acceleration you might loose by having a softer sidewall.

just my .02

Roger Poirier
08-26-2005, 12:25 PM
just so everyone knows this is an old thread that has been brought back. Roger 20" rims don't necessarily not make your car PT, the guy I was talking about was throwing them on a stock car with stock supsension. You have to read exactly what i was saying, altough you will get a better hanlding car with 17's/18's.

I understood what you were saying. No problem here. I'm just a rookie like a lot of other people on this forum. When I ask something, I'm truly trying to learn and understand. I love these discussions.

My thoughts are: My money, my car, my time, my way. To each his own I say!

Bill Howell and I are proud members of the Poser family. I seriously thing we should create are own group within this forum.

R.P.


P.S. I'm gone for the weekend. I'm headed up north to the upper part of the lower peninsula here in MI. Going speed boating. I can't wait to throw off some family members from the tube. LOL