Revisiting Flat Tappet Oil

[another69]

I know this topic has been covered in the past, but oil is always changing, so I thought that I'd ask what others are running with flat tappet cams. I have been planning on upgrading to a roller for years, but my motor runs great now with the existing flat tappet cam. Spending $1000.00 for a retrofit (I have a 70's 400 block) kit is a hard pill to swallow, especially when I may go the LS route eventually. Until that time, my motor runs great, has low miles, and I would like to use an oil that will protect it. I'm sure there are others in the same boat as me.

The oil companies seem to say that any new oil designation can be used in place of older oils. I know that this has not been found to be the case with flat tappet performance cams, which seem to wear quickly without (as I understand it) the high levels of ZDDP that existed in older oils. I currently use Valvoline 10W30 VR1 with a Redline additive. I would really like to run a thinner oil, especially a synthetic. I have always heard that flat tappet cams with synthetics don't mix. Any thoughts?

[T_Raven]

There are a lot of threads on ls1tech about the lack of ZDDP in oil being a problem, so apparently it's not just limited to flat tappet cams. I've been putting 10w30 VR1 in my stuff lately, but if there are better choices out there I'd like to know them too.

[AMSOILGUY]

I know this topic has been covered in the past, but oil is always changing, so I thought that I'd ask what others are running with flat tappet cams. I have been planning on upgrading to a roller for years, but my motor runs great now with the existing flat tappet cam. Spending $1000.00 for a retrofit (I have a 70's 400 block) kit is a hard pill to swallow, especially when I may go the LS route eventually. Until that time, my motor runs great, has low miles, and I would like to use an oil that will protect it. I'm sure there are others in the same boat as me.

The oil companies seem to say that any new oil designation can be used in place of older oils. I know that this has not been found to be the case with flat tappet performance cams, which seem to wear quickly without (as I understand it) the high levels of ZDDP that existed in older oils. I currently use Valvoline 10W30 VR1 with a Redline additive. I would really like to run a thinner oil, especially a synthetic. I have always heard that flat tappet cams with synthetics don't mix. Any thoughts?

"I have always heard that flat tappet cams with synthetics don't mix." This is as far from the truth as possible! Here is a product that meets all your needs and you can stop using additives.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/05/ZRT-1.jpg If you are using the correct oil for your application you shouldn't have to add anything. Lets leave the making of oil to the experts.

There are a lot of threads on ls1tech about the lack of ZDDP in oil being a problem, so apparently it's not just limited to flat tappet cams. I've been putting 10w30 VR1 in my stuff lately, but if there are better choices out there I'd like to know them too.

Here is a great discussion we had on this site in regards to this topic. Plus it explains the offer on AMSOIL products so you can save yourself some money! https://www.pro-touring.com/classified-ads-marketplace/special-group-buy-deals/special-offer-amsoil-products-99355.html

[another69]

Ok that looks pretty good, is it offered in a lighter weight, like a 5W-20? If not I will still try it in a 10W30. What is the minimum oil temperature that you recommend by the way? Mine always seems to hover around 180.

[Ron Sutton]

I gotta ask ... why are you looking to run a thinner oil ?

[AMSOILGUY]

Ok that looks pretty good, is it offered in a lighter weight, like a 5W-20? If not I will still try it in a 10W30. What is the minimum oil temperature that you recommend by the way? Mine always seems to hover around 180.
The Z-Rod is only available in 10W-30 and 20W-50.

I'm not sure about the oil temp question. I dont have an oil temp guage in my car. Never worried about it. Just pressure and water temp here. Maybe Ron will have an answer but I bet he'll want more information.

[Ron Sutton]

The Z-Rod is only available in 10W-30 and 20W-50.

I'm not sure about the oil temp question. I dont have an oil temp guage in my car. Never worried about it. Just pressure and water temp here. Maybe Ron will have an answer but I bet he'll want more information.

Anything above 145° is safe ... 180°-220° is a good range. Anything around 240° start worrying ... or install an oil cooler. Thermal breakdown for most conventional oils starts around 270° and around 285° for most synthetic oils.

I gotta ask ... why are you looking to run a thinner oil ?

[another69]

As far as I know, oil needs to be hot to lubricate and flow properly. Cold oil really does not protect, thats why you don't rev your car when it's cold, right? that is when most of the wear takes place. Instead you are supposed to warm it up to a temperature where it flows well and where water evaporates. Too warm and it breaks down. So what is the optimal temperature? Warm oil is thinner, and that is why it flows and lubes better. Why run thick oil? (I really don't know, thats why I'm asking) In a pressurized system (besides the splash oiling of the cam) how could oil ever be too thin to lubricate? Thats why I want thinner oil. My motor runs cool and makes good power there, so why run a 10W30? It seems like it would just make the oil pump work harder. Most modern OE motors run much hotter and 5W30 or thinner oils.

[shane38]

Check this company out i know the dude that developed it and its a great oil i use

Fischer Brand | Classic Car Motor Oil | Products (http://www.classiccaroil.com)

with 1200ppm to 1400ppm of zddp

[AMSOILGUY]

As far as I know, oil needs to be hot to lubricate and flow properly. Oil is given a cold flow rating and it will flow at whatever visocity it is to that temperature. Cold oil really does not protect, thats why you don't rev your car when it's cold, right? Cold oil does protect why wouldn't it? As long as it is no below the cold flow temp. Then as a result of thickening you could see wear occur. that is when most of the wear takes place. Initial start up from what I have learned is when the most wear occurs. That is why the film strength is so important. Instead you are supposed to warm it up to a temperature where it flows well and where water evaporates. Too warm and it breaks down. I believe this has more to do with cylinder temperature then oil temp but I don't know for sure so maybe can set the record straight? So what is the optimal temperature? Ron covered this in his post. Warm oil is thinner, and that is why it flows and lubes better. Once again you are talking about visocity and oil will break down with heat and even faster with introduction of contaminets. But a properly built oil that is ran in the ranges Ron talked about should stay in visocity. Why run thick oil? (I really don't know, thats why I'm asking) I would run the viscosity the engine builder recommends. In a pressurized system (besides the splash oiling of the cam) how could oil ever be too thin to lubricate? Seems to me that how much viscosity you need depends on tolerances to which the engine was built. Thats why I want thinner oil. My motor runs cool and makes good power there, so why run a 10W30? I don't think anybody was recommending any specific viscosity of oil I was recommending a high zinc oil that you would not need to use additives. That is designed for flat tappet cams. It seems like it would just make the oil pump work harder. Most modern OE motors run much hotter and 5W30 or thinner oils. The difference between 5w30 and 10w30 is the cold flow rating.
What viscosity do you currently use?

[AMSOILGUY]

Check this company out i know the dude that developed it and its a great oil i use

Fischer Brand | Classic Car Motor Oil | Products (http://www.classiccaroil.com)

with 1200ppm to 1400ppm of zddp

This is a conventional motor oil. Plus it looks like it only come in 20w-50 which he is thinking he wants a thinner oil then 10w-30 so I don't think thats exactly what he is looking for. I've never heard of that company and would be surpised if it would perform as well as AMSOIL based off the data sheets.

[Ron Sutton]

As far as I know, oil needs to be hot to lubricate and flow properly. Cold oil really does not protect, thats why you don't rev your car when it's cold, right? that is when most of the wear takes place. Instead you are supposed to warm it up to a temperature where it flows well and where water evaporates. Too warm and it breaks down. So what is the optimal temperature? Warm oil is thinner, and that is why it flows and lubes better. Why run thick oil? (I really don't know, thats why I'm asking) In a pressurized system (besides the splash oiling of the cam) how could oil ever be too thin to lubricate? Thats why I want thinner oil. My motor runs cool and makes good power there, so why run a 10W30? It seems like it would just make the oil pump work harder. Most modern OE motors run much hotter and 5W30 or thinner oils.

Like I posted above, anything above 145° is a safe operating temp for the oil. Steel rod race engines, we make sure we're 120°+ before we run hard. Aluminum rod engines need to be 140°+.

180°-220° is the targeted operating range optimum power. When we're doing 2-lap qualifying runs, we use engine oil heaters to heat the oil to 180° to 200° depending on the track. At Daytona, it can make the difference between qualifying on pole or 30th. Happened to one of my drivers in an ARCA race when the crew member forgot to turn the engine oil heater on before qualifying.

Oil temps over 240° make me nervous, so if you see that high ... install an oil cooler. Thermal breakdown for most conventional oils starts around 270° and around 285° for most synthetic oils.

I have a lot of experience running thin oils & what are called 0 weight oils. They're not really zero. It's just the old scale of measuring oil never went that low. We build more power with super thin oils, but the gains are small ... on the scale of 1.5-2.0%. For qualifying at big races ... where we have the opportunity to change the oil before the race ... sure. But we never run that thin oil for any long periods.

The thinner oil doesn't have the shear film strength to protect the engine as well. The margin for engine failure is razor sharp. When we've seen failures ... and I've seen several ... it's the high load things like rod & main bearings, piston skirts & cam lobes that fail. For a 400hp engine, we're talking 8 hp difference between running 0 weight or 20-w50. Because I've seen the successes & failures first hand, I only use them when I'm willing to take an expensive gamble for a small power gain.

With the advanced chemistry of oils available today, with better lubricity & friction modifiers, we can stay with normal viscosity oils to provide a higher level of engine protection & longer engine life ... and still get some of that power. All of the modern production engines are designed to use thinner oils, with tighter bearing clearances, often .0015" & less. I suspect your 400 has normal SBC bearing clearances around .002". It may benefit you to look at your build notes or check with your engine builder.

Best wishes !

[AMSOILGUY]

Ron with all your back ground what motor oil do you use?

[Ron Sutton]

Ron with all your back ground what motor oil do you use?

I find guys are funny about spark plugs, oil & beer. Most guys have their own preference & they will spend hours telling you why their oil, beer or spark plug is "the best". I'm not that guy. I have done advanced testing of many brands of spark plugs & like several brands. So I choose spark plugs based on heat range & tip style ... and see what's available in the brands that I've tested to perform well.

Same with oil. My company was hired many years ago to do lubricant & additive testing (fuels too) on the dyno & track. I've tried to keep up with lubricant technology as best possible since then. With oil, there are several brands I trust ... but not every version they make. It's like car manufacturers. I may favor a brand, but I don't like every single car & truck they offer. Or said more correctly for oil ... every version they make may not fit my needs. I'm not talking about viscosities, but total mixture formula.

The last eight years my race teams were high profile, so I almost always had a lubricants sponsor. I would only work with a company that we wanted to run their product across the board. We had a funny/weird situation a few years back where we had 3 lubricant companies interested in sponsoring my nine race team operation. One big name synthetic race oil company has horrible engine oil. It builds good power when the engine is fresh, but the engine wear is accelerated, and power declines rapidly. Engine rebuilds are needed in half the normal time. I couldn't afford the engine wear ... even if the oil was free. But they have one of the best gear oils I've ever run. Go figure.

The second company, a small hi-tech lab with a boutique brand provided us with very good performing engine oils to test that built optimum power, protected the engine & provided great low wear characteristics ... but their gear oils were terrible. Gears ran hot & the rapid gear wear was the worst I'd seen. The third company is also a prominent brand in racing & other venues. Their oils performed great in every venue. So we went with them for several years.

So I don't have one brand. If I'm sponsored, it has to be a brand with great lubricants across the board. If I'm buying it, I pick & choose different brands & versions based on what the application is. In my race parts store, we sold 10 brands of oil, but only brands I believed in & could recommend with confidence.

You represent a solid brand that offers great lubricants across the board. If I was in your shoes, I would be confident in recommending all of their the product to racers & street car guys alike. The key is getting them the right product for their application.

P.S. I have done advanced testing of many brands of beer too ... and like several brands. :lol:

[AMSOILGUY]

I find guys are funny about spark plugs, oil & beer. Most guys have their own preference & they will spend hours telling you why their oil, beer or spark plug is "the best". I'm not that guy. I have done advanced testing of many brands of spark plugs & like several brands. So I choose spark plugs based on heat range & tip style ... and see what's available in the brands that I've tested to perform well.

Same with oil. My company was hired many years ago to do lubricant & additive testing (fuels too) on the dyno & track. I've tried to keep up with lubricant technology as best possible since then. With oil, there are several brands I trust ... but not every version they make. It's like car manufacturers. I may favor a brand, but I don't like every single car & truck they offer. Or said more correctly for oil ... every version they make may not fit my needs. I'm not talking about viscosities, but total mixture formula.

The last eight years my race teams were high profile, so I almost always had a lubricants sponsor. I would only work with a company that we wanted to run their product across the board. We had a funny/weird situation a few years back where we had 3 lubricant companies interested in sponsoring my nine race team operation. One big name synthetic race oil company has horrible engine oil. It builds good power when the engine is fresh, but the engine wear is accelerated, and power declines rapidly. Engine rebuilds are needed in half the normal time. I couldn't afford the engine wear ... even if the oil was free. But they have one of the best gear oils I've ever run. Go figure.

The second company, a small hi-tech lab with a boutique brand provided us with very good performing engine oils to test that built optimum power, protected the engine & provided great low wear characteristics ... but their gear oils were terrible. Gears ran hot & the rapid gear wear was the worst I'd seen. The third company is also a prominent brand in racing & other venues. Their oils performed great in every venue. So we went with them for several years.

So I don't have one brand. If I'm sponsored, it has to be a brand with great lubricants across the board. If I'm buying it, I pick & choose different brands & versions based on what the application is. In my race parts store, we sold 10 brands of oil, but only brands I believed in & could recommend with confidence.

You represent a solid brand that offers great lubricants across the board. If I was in your shoes, I would be confident in recommending all of their the product to racers & street car guys alike. The key is getting them the right product for their application.

P.S. I have done advanced testing of many brands of beer too ... and like several brands. :lol:




"You represent a solid brand that offers great lubricants across the board. If I was in your shoes, I would be confident in recommending all of their the product to racers & street car guys alike. The key is getting them the right product for their application."

Ron,
AMSOIL has had a hard road to get where they are at. Many hurdles have already been jumped and many walls broken down. I look forward to the future. Thank you for the kind words and hopefully another69 will take advantage of the hard work from those long before me. I tell you what though every AMSOIL dealer that has been doing this from the beginning says it is much easier now then ever.

[regal454]

I find guys are funny about spark plugs, oil & beer. Most guys have their own preference & they will spend hours telling you why their oil, beer or spark plug is "the best".

NGK, VR1, and Natural Light here!!

[Ron Sutton]

NGK, VR1, and Natural Light here!!

Oh Marc ... you had me until we got to the light beer. :lol:

[Todd in Vancouver]

Oh Marc ... you had me until we got to the light beer. :lol:



Just returned from a business trip to Florida and my friends, you've got some work to do on the beer.

[another69]

Thanks to all for all the great feedback! I originally thought that running 180 deg oil would be too cool, but it sounds like I was worried about nothing.

AMSOILGUY- From what I have read (and not tested or experienced like Ron and others), engine wear not only occurs at initial startup but also when the oil is cold and has higher viscosity. It still flows when cold, just not very well. I mentioned 10W30 because that seems to be all that is offered in the Amsoil "ZROD" oil. It still seems like a great option, because it is a synthetic. For the sake of argument though, why not run a 0W30 or 5W30? still the same hot oil protection but better flow when cold, or am I missing something?

RON- Thanks for the 1st hand input. I am not chasing small gains in HP, just looking to protect my motor. That being said, you have a good point about older SBC clearances VS LS motors. Unfortunately I don't know my bearing clearances because my short block was not built by me. I can only assume that it was built with standard SBC specs. It has been running strong for 7 years so far.

So next oil change I will give Amsoil a shot. My car (with cooler) takes 7-1/2 quarts so it will cost a bit more than the VR1 but way cheaper than a roller conversion. As far as beer- cold and thick is good! A nice stout or wheat please.

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks to all for all the great feedback! I originally thought that running 180 deg oil would be too cool, but it sounds like I was worried about nothing.

AMSOILGUY- From what I have read (and not tested or experienced like Ron and others), engine wear not only occurs at initial startup but also when the oil is cold and has higher viscosity. It still flows when cold, just not very well. I mentioned 10W30 because that seems to be all that is offered in the Amsoil "ZROD" oil. It still seems like a great option, because it is a synthetic. For the sake of argument though, why not run a 0W30 or 5W30? still the same hot oil protection but better flow when cold, or am I missing something?
I don't think you're missing anything. If you're going to run a 30 wt, nothing wrong with a 0w30 or 5w30 over a 10w30 ... unless the lubrication formula of that particular version is not as good, which is possible.

RON- Thanks for the 1st hand input. I am not chasing small gains in HP, just looking to protect my motor. That being said, you have a good point about older SBC clearances VS LS motors. Unfortunately I don't know my bearing clearances because my short block was not built by me. I can only assume that it was built with standard SBC specs. It has been running strong for 7 years so far.
Cool. For what's worth, I'd still suggest a 10w40.

So next oil change I will give Amsoil a shot. My car (with cooler) takes 7-1/2 quarts so it will cost a bit more than the VR1 but way cheaper than a roller conversion.
VR1 is good oil. In my experience the Amsoil will offer similar low wear, but a much higher level of protection in high load and/or high heat situations.

As far as beer- cold and thick is good! A nice stout or wheat please.

Now we're talking. If we connect at an event in the Midwest we may need to go do some "testing" just to confirm the data. :cheers:

[another69]

Thanks Ron!

[AMSOILGUY]

Thanks to all for all the great feedback! I originally thought that running 180 deg oil would be too cool, but it sounds like I was worried about nothing.

AMSOILGUY- From what I have read (and not tested or experienced like Ron and others), engine wear not only occurs at initial startup but also when the oil is cold and has higher viscosity. It still flows when cold, just not very well. I mentioned 10W30 because that seems to be all that is offered in the Amsoil "ZROD" oil. It still seems like a great option, because it is a synthetic. For the sake of argument though, why not run a 0W30 or 5W30? still the same hot oil protection but better flow when cold, or am I missing something?
What Ron said is why I recommended the Z-Rod over some of AMSOIL'S other products. It's formula is designed for the flat tappet cam in your engine. Z-Rod also has a cold flow rating of -45F which would be +5 degrees before the oil would start to solidify. There can't be to many people starting engines below that temp with performance engines so I bet that is why they don't offer the lower viscosities.


RON- Thanks for the 1st hand input. I am not chasing small gains in HP, just looking to protect my motor. That being said, you have a good point about older SBC clearances VS LS motors. Unfortunately I don't know my bearing clearances because my short block was not built by me. I can only assume that it was built with standard SBC specs. It has been running strong for 7 years so far.

So next oil change I will give Amsoil a shot. My car (with cooler) takes 7-1/2 quarts so it will cost a bit more than the VR1 but way cheaper than a roller conversion. As far as beer- cold and thick is good! A nice stout or wheat please.
When your ready for that next change take advantage of my offer in the advertisers forum. https://www.pro-touring.com/classified-ads-marketplace/special-group-buy-deals/special-offer-amsoil-products-99355.html