ball joints and powder coating

[parsonsj]

I'm working on getting all the parts of my car finished (you know, so they don't rust). I'm looking at my fabricated lower control arms with the pressed in balljoints that I can't remove.

I was planning on just masking and painting them, but I'm wondering if they can be masked and powder coated. I can see some assembly grease oozing out during the oven part of the process, but other than that, I'd guess they'd be fine (I've not put on the rubber dust boots).

Anybody think this is a bad idea? Good idea?

thanks,
jp

[MuscleRodz]

Should not be a problem if they pre-heat them to drain the grease before powder coat. If not they may have to do it twice. All you should have to do is re-gease.

Mike

[parsonsj]

I think they can do that. I know on my rear housing, the guy said he'd "burn it out", before blasting. That's probably how they deal with greasy parts so it doesn't foul up the blaster.

I'll give 'em a call on Monday.

jp

[yody]

I doubt they will be able to do that, I could be wrong though. But they usually need to sandblast the components to get them 100% clean, not a good thing to do with a ball joint, also they have to heat it to like 600 degrees, another bad thing. Why not just press out the balljoints?? Also you might catch some flak for powdercoating your suspension pieces, you know they might crack........... :smoke:

[B Schein]

Its not that as simple as just pressing them out. It would involve making special rings an collars plus they have like .007 interference fit. I had to heat shrink them to get them together and a plus a 10 ton press. JP doesn’t have press I am 500 miles away from home at school so I cant make him the parts needed to take them apart or use the press at work.

Brian

[yody]

wow, sounds difficult, whats the reasoning behind desinging a control arm with such a difficult ball joint setup? The problem is, is if the powdercoating co. can keep them masked off or not. Also the powdercoating starts to "flow" when it gets hot(when they bake it) so it might just try and flow into your balljoint. I am by no means a powdercoating expert, you might just paint with some automotive paint and clear coat them. But skip the rattle can stuff. Your best bet is to find a powdercoating place that you can feel you can trust.

[B Schein]

It wasn’t intentionally designed to be difficult it was designed to be safe and as light as possible so the surfaces that you need to press on are very small and would slip if you were using a press with just standard plates and what not. We made the fit so tight because we were not given much guidance from the designer as to what tolerances to use and we didn’t want the ball joint come out while driving down the road. Plus these ball joins are almost $70 a piece so you don’t want to mess to many of the up They can be ruined very easily if you don’t make the special tooling need to get them out Trust me I already broke one.

[parsonsj]

I wasn't looking for a design review on the control arm/ball joint coupling.

I wanted to know if anybody had any experience or such with powder coating a ball joint.

However, I will say that these control arms are designed to be light and strong. They just weren't designed to be easily disassembled (what lower balljoint is?). We had to press the parts together to make sure everything worked. And it does, quite well.

Now I want them to be pretty ... and I was looking for some reaction about the heat of powder coating on the balljoint. The powder coater guy tells me keeping the powder out of an area is easy ... so I was wondering if the heat might damage them. I don't see how it would (not at powder coating temps anyway), but I thought I'd ask.

jp

[MuscleRodz]

Powdercoating temps are not that high. The temp range is around 375*-400* depending on the material and is only in the oven about 30 min. There is no need to sandblast for powder to stick although it doesn't hurt. Metal just needs to prepped and cleaned. It is easy to mask off like masking when painting normally. They use a special plastic tape to mask areas with that withstands the heat. Powder is held with static charge and will only "build" so much so runs are very rare.

Mike

[nancejd]

I'm certainly no expert, but it seems to me if you can keep the bearing surfaces from becoming contaminated, and the boot isn't on it, then I don't see how the process itself can possibly hurt it. Isn't powder coating done at a temperature that a residential oven can reach any way? That certainly shouldn't be hot enough to even affect any heat treating done to a piece of metal, let alone deform it.

[yody]

well I'm sorry your balljoints are so tight, you know that can cause a rash :) I wasn't questioning anything just wondered why they were like that...okay? I would really leave it up to a powdercoater, if they don't make you comfortalbe with their answer I would go somehwere else, if they think they can do it, then it shouldn't be a problem, however I would be worried about the sandblasting process. That stuff gets everywhere. I wouldn't think the heating of the part would hurt it either, although all the suspension guys were saying that IF it is aluminum it can be bad.

[parsonsj]

Yeah all the parts are steel, so no worries.

I'll do all the prep and take 'em over when I get back from my work assignment here in NYC. Maybe they don't need to blast the part if my prep work is good enough.

Yody, I'm agreeing with your point about don't use a rattle can on this, which is why I want something more durable. Powder coat is the way to go I think, if possible. I'll let you guys know what the coater has to say about this.

jp

[Sparky67]

Yeah all the parts are steel, so no worries.

I'll do all the prep and take 'em over when I get back from my work assignment here in NYC. Maybe they don't need to blast the part if my prep work is good enough.

Yody, I'm agreeing with your point about don't use a rattle can on this, which is why I want something more durable. Powder coat is the way to go I think, if possible. I'll let you guys know what the coater has to say about this.

jp

Powder coat durable? Not really, I just got some brand new DSE LCA and they are already scratched. I am going to change colors, so it wasn't a problem. Although, you might look at ceramic coating as alternative on some of your parts. I think powder coating is fine for rearends and frames, but after seeing the benefits of ceramic coating from HPC coatings. I am considering ceramic coating some of my suspension parts. Here is their site http://www.hpcoatings.com Send them an email and request a sample. I think you might consider it as alternative.

Jeff

[parsonsj]

Jeff,

Everything is relative. Powder coating is certainly more durable than rattle can paint, which was what I was comparing.

The hpcoating stuff looks great. Any ideas on price?

jp

[Sparky67]

Jeff,

Everything is relative. Powder coating is certainly more durable than rattle can paint, which was what I was comparing.

The hpcoating stuff looks great. Any ideas on price?

jp

Control arms are $40 and up according to their sheet that they sent. The price sheet is dated March 2004, but I just got it last week. If you email them, they respond very quickly to any of your questions. The part has to be prepped before it is sent to them. Here is a link that shows their most up to date price sheet. http://www.hpcoatings.com/pricesheet.htm

Yes, Powder coating is more durable than spray paint. Although, I think that some parts need a more durable coating than powder coating. The disadvantage to ceramic coating is the lack of stock colors compared to powder coating. Each coating though has tradeoffs, but I am considering using ceramic coating on certain parts.

Jeff

[yody]

sorry, but powdercoating is super tough, yes it can be scratched but you basically have to gouge it to get through to metal. Ceramic coating is nice too, but it is made for applications where heat is a factor, it is way thinner than powdercoating and scratches show easier, but it too is pretty tough

[Sparky67]

sorry, but powdercoating is super tough, yes it can be scratched but you basically have to gouge it to get through to metal. Ceramic coating is nice too, but it is made for applications where heat is a factor, it is way thinner than powdercoating and scratches show easier, but it too is pretty tough

Yody, I wasn't comparing the 2 coatings to say which one is better. I just was giving another option in coatings. You might want to check out HPC coatings. They also offer appearance ceramic coatings. This was taken from their website. "HPC offers hi-tech appearance coatings to make your method of rapid transit look great. HiPerCrystal™ coatings are much more durable then enamel paints and powder coatings and offer excellent resistance to scratching, chipping and chemicals, even DOT3 brake fluid. Unlike powder coating, HiPerCrystal will easily withstand temperatures of 600° F. These coatings are especially suited for components such as valve covers, air-inlet tubes, brackets, brake calipers, suspension pieces, motorcycle and ATV frames, wheels, air cleaners and just about anything else metal"

You might want to request a sample from then and do a comparison between the two. Then draw your own conclusion.
Jeff

[yody]

sounds pretty good, a sample would be a good idea. My frame is powdercoated and resists dot3 just fine, doesnt' come off or dull at all. However my calipers are a nice blue powdercoat and it comes off much easier with brake fluid, makes me think that odd colors arent as tough. Also you can get SUPER tough powdercoating in differnet colors like grey etc but it will break down in a lot of direct UV light, I don't think control arms would be a problem. I think the part about their "hipercyrstal" being more durable than powdercoating is just advertising, but I am sure there stuff is strong. Another thing to remember is a lot of local places to all kinds of custom coatings. Its funny how a lot of people ship their stuff to Jet-hot (which is really just regular ceramic coating) because they see their adds in magazines, when there are plenty of cheaper local places that do the exact same thing. One thing I wouldn't do is go to a small time powdercoating place with a small booth/oven etc. Try to find a place that deals with a lot of industrial stuff, they usually have more selection and better equipment.

[parsonsj]

The game is on. The powder coat guy says to bring 'em on down. He thinks this will work just fine. The hpcoat folks say the bake process for them is a higher temp, so I'm gonna stay with the powder coat.

I appreciate all the help and options.

jp

[Sparky67]

sounds pretty good, a sample would be a good idea. My frame is powdercoated and resists dot3 just fine, doesnt' come off or dull at all. However my calipers are a nice blue powdercoat and it comes off much easier with brake fluid, makes me think that odd colors arent as tough. Also you can get SUPER tough powdercoating in differnet colors like grey etc but it will break down in a lot of direct UV light, I don't think control arms would be a problem. I think the part about their "hipercyrstal" being more durable than powdercoating is just advertising, but I am sure there stuff is strong. Another thing to remember is a lot of local places to all kinds of custom coatings. Its funny how a lot of people ship their stuff to Jet-hot (which is really just regular ceramic coating) because they see their adds in magazines, when there are plenty of cheaper local places that do the exact same thing. One thing I wouldn't do is go to a small time powdercoating place with a small booth/oven etc. Try to find a place that deals with a lot of industrial stuff, they usually have more selection and better equipment.


Yes, here is some super tough powder coating on calipers. Interesting story that you might find interesting Yodi. http://www.goldlinebrakes.com/TechReport101.htm

I will just post the article here.

The Porsche 944 turbo calipers are one of the most advanced designs on the road today. It has a 4-piston design that delivers a considerable amount of brake force to each rotor. The caliper pictured here is from on a street-legal racecar. The lightweight aluminum construction maximizes heat dispersion and replaces the heavier cast iron two piston caliper.

The unit you see here came to us covered with multiple layers of different colored do-it-yourself “powder coat” paint. The previous owner of the car apparently applied the coating to enhance the appearance of the caliper. The problem with excessive layers of aftermarket powder coating is that it tends to trap heat inside the caliper and make the brake fluid temperature much higher than necessary.

Before we could rebuild these calipers, we had to remove the layers of powder coating and get down to bare aluminum. Once this was done, a thermal dispersant coating was applied. This protects the aluminum by coating all the surfaces and the pores of the metal so it will not absorb road and brake dust contaminants. It also pulls the heat out of the caliper. This is the opposite of a powder coating that in effect traps the heat in the unit. After application of the thermal dispersant coating, the calipers were then reassembled with new OEM pistons and seals.

As you can see, the rebuilt units are back to a near new condition. If you are concerned about the type of aftermarket “powder coating” on your vehicle or have other brake questions, give us a call.

What is your diagnosis on this problem, Yodi?

[BRIAN]

I can't see that being worth the risk. They have to be blasted right before they are coated or the adhesion will suffer. Anything I have ever gotten powder coated has had some sand residue. Rather see flaking paint than a failed joint rip your new fender off. Honestly I have used both powder and real paint and there is a close difference with the powder being marginally more durable.

Don't some ball joints have nylon linings?

They are going to get covered with boot and the grease that oozes out.

I like detail but this is a driver right?


Buy yourself a quality paint system as think of all the other parts you are going to want to match in color.

Can they be gun blued? (not sure on spelling)

[parsonsj]

Brian,

Remember I'm actually talking about the control arm, not the ball joint (my thread title is a bit misleading). I'm not trying to powder coat the ball joint itself.

My ball joints do not have have nylon linings. Steel on steel.

You do have a point on the painting of all the other little parts, and I need to do that. But for a lower control arm, I want as much durability as possible.

jp

[BRIAN]

Understood but I would still think about the matching paint as if your car is as detailed as it looks you will be dropping of a lot of parts.

I have PPG DBI or DUI? with hardener on mine. Goes on nice and thin and really holds up. Also has nice med sheen. Used both and never had a problem with properly prepped parts with either application.


I think something called vulcan? black powder is very close to the GM semi flat sheen.


Good luck and can't wait to see it done.

[parsonsj]

if your car is as detailed as it looks you will be dropping of a lot of parts.

Man, is that ever the truth. Between anodizing, powder coating, nickel plating, and paint to match the body (done by Road Killer), I've dropped off over 300 parts.

It is getting expensive. Time to start painting.

jp

[parsonsj]

I got the control arms back from the powder coater. They turned out fine. I had masked off the ball joints with 3M green masking tape while I did some prep work before taking the parts to the powder coater. I got them back with the masking tape still there, and looking like when I dropped them off. Butch (that's probably not the name his mother gave him) said that the heat he uses wouldn't affect the tape, and the ball joints seem just like when I dropped them off.

So anyway, it looks like this worked fine. Now it's time to put them on the car for the last time.

jp