1st Gen Camaro subframes...

[Nasty N8]

I'm trying to get an idea and poll the crowd on here, as I just recently acquired a pair of '69 Camaro's and I plan to do a complete build on one of them, but I've had this thought and question in my mind about what the majority of all you Pro-Touring guys are using for front subframes, and suspension setups on your 1st gens.

How many of you just opted for:
Aftermarket subframe with aftermarket components?
Factory Subframe with aftermarket components?
Factory subframe?

I've also had the idea to build a vintage racer, and curious as to what the "norm" is on here.

Any pics, and setups would be greatly appreciated!

[chocthunder]

I went with factory subframe with after market components. For me this is the most affordable option. I am using Hotchkiss components. For my skill level I believe this will be more than enough.

[Nasty N8]

That brings up a good point, what do you use your Camaro for? Daily, Track, AutoX?
How happy are you with your setup?

[chocthunder]

I have just recently discovered autoXX so I don't have much experience at it yet. The car is a daily driver with just 3 inch drop springs and leafs. I will have Hotchkiss front and rear sway bars on in a couple of weeks. I figured I would evolve the car as my skills improved.
The car has not seen any track time yet, that will be in the future.

[Rod]

I went with factory subframe with after market components. For me this is the most affordable option. I autoX and big track along with that the car is a DD (Daily Driver)

[srh3trinity]

I have a second gen and I opted for a scott mock subframe. It uses c6 control arms, uprights and a fox body mustang. Replacement parts are available and cheap and I am running c6 brakes with pads and rotors available at most any parts store. I did the math and I have about $1000-1500 more than building a stock sub. Not bad in my opinion. This is compared to using dse, ridetech or speedtech parts on a stocker.

[dbackse350]

Stock subframe, welds grounds down, rails smoothed, dents pounded out of belly pan; aftermarket components, e.g. Global West, Hotchkiss... Use car only for shows and occasional cruising. Hard to justify aftermarket sub if not doing autocross, IMO.

[Spitfire100]

I have recently finished a 69, and used the stock subframe with all Ride Tech components handles great, and reasonably priced. I am also working on one with DSE complete subframe more expensive, but an excellent piece of engineering. PM me and i will give you one piece of advice that can help you make a decision. Also welcome to the site from a fellow SC native.

Dale K

[cornfedbill]

I am going with the stock subframe with modifications.

[bret]

There are number of really good aftermarket subframes available today. DSE, Roadster Shop, Speed Tech, and TCI come immediately to mind. And lots of good reasons to choose an aftermarket unit...if yours is missing, bent, rusted,etc.

Why choose the stock subframe with aftermarket components? Price, simplicity, availability, function.

Price - obviously less since you already have the subframe.

Simplicity - no cutting, no welding, the Tru Turn system is about a 3 hour installation on a finished car.

Availability - you've already got the oem subframe and the rest is but a Fedex ride away.

Function - with the right components, as good or better than a fabricated subframe. Indulge my bias as I recommend our Tru Turn system that will allow the use of a 275mm front tire, increases camber gain, and reduces bumpsteer to near zero.

The playing field is so level right now that there is no clearcut choice. Its a matter of what criteria is most important to you and who will give you the best service and tech advice.

Just make sure its got RideTech shocks on it :)

[JEFFTATE]

Like others said ,
If you are on a low budget ( like most of us ) , I'd use the factory subframe ( as long as it's not bent ) with bolt on components.
You can get a great result , and a great driving and handling car with a bolt-on setup.
If you have a huge pot of money and want the quickest thing to compete at events with , get an aftermarket subframe and suspension .

My car has the stock frame with a Ride Tech Tru-Turn System, a GM quick ratio steering box , Herb Adams sway-bars, Landrum Springs , 17" American Racing Wheels ( cheap) , and Falken Azenis Tires . ( And STOCK '69 Camaro 10" disc brakes ! )
It's a mix-match , but it works well , and it was cheap ..

It's not the fastest thing at events , but who cares ?
I'm usually in the top half of the field .
As I get money , I'll improve it .

[Steve Chryssos]

I've built and driven cars with both upgraded stock clips and good aftermarket clips. Upgraded stock clips are a big improvement over bone stock clips but not as good as a proper aftermarket clip that allows for rack and pinion steering and offers radically revised suspension geometry. I really like my front steer rack and pinion steering. It simply cannot be achieved with the stock crossmember in the way. It also eliminates the steering box which aside from being heavy, encroaches on header clearance.
I have one of the very first aftermarket clips ever produced. From back in 1999. It cost me a whopping $1500 -- which seemed like a world of money back then. It's the same kind that's under The Mule. Stielow and I both hacked them into pieces and made a bunch of changes. Nowadays, they cost a fortune, but work out of the box.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/08/steveupdate3-1.jpg

[Rod]

I know I answered before, but I just wanted to point out that the stock subframe works well, and just needs a little touchup to work great, what an after market frame has over the stock fame is that there

(1) stiffer
(2) better geometry and the ability to run a wider front tire (most of them)
(3) lighter (some about 30lbs)

so to make the stock frame better and address the issues and get up to date

(1) stiffer, what I did first was weld up all the seems and added aluminum frame mounts, the frames from factory were just stitch welded, and that was fine for the 6 inch wide bias ply tires, sloppy steering box, soft stock springs and rubber bushings, making the old setup a Flex-i-flyer
(2) better geometry, the Tru-turn (allows a 10" wide wheel) reduces bump-steer and the tall spindles help the camber curve
(3) lighter, I couldn't lighten the frame itself so I lightened the surrounding components so with a coilover and tube arms the frame drops a lot of weight, over the stock 40+ year old stamped steel arms, and clunky springs

hope that helps

[DJW32]

I've built and driven cars with both upgraded stock clips and good aftermarket clips. Upgraded stock clips are a big improvement over bone stock clips but not as good as a proper aftermarket clip that allows for rack and pinion steering and offers radically revised suspension geometry. I really like my front steer rack and pinion steering. It simply cannot be achieved with the stock crossmember in the way. It also eliminates the steering box which aside from being heavy, encroaches on header clearance.
I have one of the very first aftermarket clips ever produced. From back in 1999. It cost me a whopping $1500 -- which seemed like a world of money back then. It's the same kind that's under The Mule. Stielow and I both hacked them into pieces and made a bunch of changes. Nowadays, they cost a fortune, but work out of the box.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/08/steveupdate3-1.jpg

Steve,
do you run no wheel well?

[Steve Chryssos]

It's a chopped wheel well as shown. Protects the fender from those "reverse" dents, saves some weight and makes the car a little easier to wrench.

[Steve Chryssos]

Here's a kicker: If you held a gun to my head and forced me to clip only one end of the car -- either front subframe swap or link-type rear suspension, which would I pick?

I would choose to convert the rear suspension first. To me, replacing leaf springs with a good "Link Type" suspension is more important than swapping out the front clip.

[bret]

Here's a kicker: If you held a gun to my head and forced me to clip only one end of the car -- either front subframe swap or link-type rear suspension, which would I pick?

I would choose to convert the rear suspension first. To me, replacing leaf springs with a good "Link Type" suspension is more important than swapping out the front clip.

Agreed. By a lot.

[Build-It-Break-It]

Has anyone narrowed the frame rails for tire/rim clearance? Not to hijack the thread but I'm in the same boat. I figured around $3500 for afx tall spindles,spc upper and lower control arms and speedtech coil over conversion. But that seems really close to a complete speedtech subframe...

[Rod]

speedtech is great stuff but your not getting those AFX spindles in their 4999.00 package(at least not in the camaro frame) those suckers are another 1200 bucks!! I was just reading the included parts list, don't get me wrong(I personally want one of their bare frames for my car) Im just saying the pricing for youre want list and the trick frame are not close

[Build-It-Break-It]

True, the spindles are the main component . My best bet will probably be use my factory frame and upgraded components. I just want a wider wheel and the factory frame limits that. I don't think you can use the afx spindles with the ridetech tru turn components. I'm ok narrowing the frame but want to see if anyone had done it to fit wider wheels with success.

[Nasty N8]

First off I want to thank everyone for their great responses! I've also received multiple emails from this post with other great products! There is so much available, which is great, just makes it a tough decision. What's the widest front wheel/tire combo a stock subframe will accept?

[Cdog]

Here's a kicker: If you held a gun to my head and forced me to clip only one end of the car -- either front subframe swap or link-type rear suspension, which would I pick?

I would choose to convert the rear suspension first. To me, replacing leaf springs with a good "Link Type" suspension is more important than swapping out the front clip.

We’re going this route on my 69 Camaro. We installed the AM Tri-4 bar and plan to do what we can with the front end.

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

I know I answered before, but I just wanted to point out that the stock subframe works well, and just needs a little touchup to work great, what an after market frame has over the stock fame is that there

(1) stiffer
(2) better geometry and the ability to run a wider front tire (most of them)
(3) lighter (some about 100lbs)



*fixed

Sorry, Rodney, had to do it. LOL


-J

[Rod]

*fixed

Sorry, Rodney, had to do it. LOL


-J

Ha ha ha ha Thanks Jay!!! you are are awesome brother! some have a 100 pound difference? you mean as a completed unit, not just bare frame right, I don't think the bare frame weighs a 100 pounds, I will go out in the yard and weigh one today I have two bare frames out back, also......that is a HUGE number, I better get on a diet

[Sales-TCI-Eng]

Ha ha ha ha Thanks Jay!!! you are are awesome brother! some have a 100 pound difference? you mean as a completed unit, not just bare frame right, I don't think the bare frame weighs a 100 pounds, I will go out in the yard and weigh one today I have two bare frames out back, also......that is a HUGE number, I better get on a diet

In my Beavis voice............you said "Huge"

Our complete front clip is nearly 120 lbs lighter than a complete stock front clip

That comparison was done before the changeover to Ridetech shocks too which as I understand are lighter than our old design shocks. When your driver weighs 260lbs and the car is running a conventional iron block SBC every little bit counts.

-J

[Rod]

When your driver weighs 260lbs

ha ha ha ha ha ..??? wait a minute....Im not 260 yet! ha ha ha ha ha

[Bmf5150]

The Scott mock subframe is a great piece!

[Todd in Vancouver]

Just curious but what is the true cost difference?

What I mean by this is when I got my car I went with the TCI front because mine needed EVERYTHING. So take a stock subframe, have it welded up (not everyone has a welder and lots can't weld if they did), replace all the steering components (drag link, tie rods, etc.), steering box for a better one, bigger sway bar, ball joints and now upgrade control arms, shocks, drop spindles, subframe to firewall braces and all the bolts, washers and anything else you can think of. Now, compare that to my TCI (or others) front clip and tell how much does the better, lighter one really cost. I'm betting if you do the math you'll see it really isn't that much more expense in the grand scheme of things compared to the total overhaul investment. Let alone you will probably end up doing it anyway and hope you can now sell your very expensive stock clip for pennies on the dollar.

But hey, that's just my opinion. :cheers:

[srh3trinity]

I said it earlier. When I did the math I probably spent 1000-1500 more on my Mock subframe and components as compared to building a stocker with upper end parts. A DSE steering box is pricey, a Fox Mustang rack is cheap. You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. C5 or C6 brakes bolt up without brackets (cost savings). Scott includes a sway bar and crossmember and that saves some too over the aftermarket. I was surprised in the end.

[Ketzer]

You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. .

What I found when looking into this, you could buy C5/C6 control arms and uprights and complete brakes for less than the cost of just comparable big Wilwood brakes. Granted the C5/C6 parts are used and might need some freshening up... but for the budget minded...


Jeff-

[srh3trinity]

You can find c5/c6 control arms and uprights for cheaper than aftermarket tubular arms. .

What I found when looking into this, you could buy C5/C6 control arms and uprights and complete brakes for less than the cost of just comparable big Wilwood brakes. Granted the C5/C6 parts are used and might need some freshening up... but for the budget minded...


Jeff-
I found this to be true as well. I bought my control arms and a uprights from a board member here for less than $500. I did replace the hub assembly, but the ones I took off are probably in decent shape. The upgrading steering rack that I bought was much cheaper then an upgraded GM box.

[overZealous1]

i went the stupid route. i started replacing everything on the stock front clip and had it nearly complete. then the cost of the brakes was the decider for me and the fact that speedtech was having a special at the time to toss in stock height afx spindles with the complete subframe.
when i figured in the brakes portion, it was the deciding factor. $3000+ for a set of really good 6 piston fronts, or $1000 for the c6 z06 set up from core that bolts right to the afx spindles. it really was a wash and to get a complete subframe with components all designed to work together and so much cleaner made it a no brainer. luckily i was able to get almost what i paid for all the stock frame parts i had already purchased.
might take awhile to save up, but keep your eye on the classified. they pop up every once in awhile.

[overZealous1]

pic of the speedtech. i am grafting it to a rear frame section i made to house the 350z irs. once i decided to do the rear frame and irs, i really had to get the speedtech front to get a good dimensional tube to graft to. but, the numbers did work out as mentioned in post above.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/09/20130207_162927_zps0885b4c8-1.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/scooter350z/media/20130207_162927_zps0885b4c8.jpg.html)

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/09/20130207_162944_zpse577a98d-1.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/scooter350z/media/20130207_162944_zpse577a98d.jpg.html)

[boneheadzz]

OK, curve ball here.

Has anyone tried using a second gen subframe on a 1st?

Why? Because my buddy needed his barn back so I brought home my 69 Camaro. I've had it 15 years and done nothing but neglect it. I am sick of just storing this car instead of working on it. It is my dream car. Or at least this car is the car that I dream about fixing up and keeping forever. I've been waiting until I can afford to totally go thru the car but I'm never gonna get there if I don't take the first step.
Money is tight and the 69 sub is rotted around the bushing mounts. It also has drum brakes and an itty bitty swaybar. I have access to another second gen subframe with standard discs and a 1 1/4" swaybar for next to nothing. I also have a 79 TA that I have been collecting parts for. I have some goodies such as Del-alum upper a-arm bushings, 13" LS1 brake kit and some poly swaybar bushings. I could use these on the 2nd gen subframe and get my 69 on the road instead of just wishing it was.
It's in sad shape but I want to reanimate it. Unfortunately with one kid in college and one closing in on it, my budget is microscopic. Therefore this is why I'm going the low buck route. I'm not afraid of cutting and welding on the 2nd gen frame to make it work. I have the basic skills just not the deep pockets to buy aftermarket.
Don't mean to highjack this thread, I just thought this would be a great place to ask this.
Thanks!
Mike

[pitts64]

Rear steer is under compression and makes things touchy under speed. There's nothing you can do about it that I'm aware of.. I would go with the Second Gen sub and scrap the rear steer... I'm getting ready to cut the sub frame off my 64 Pontiac because the handling is always unpredictable. Go with the front steer...

[dipren443]

Rear steer is under compression and makes things touchy under speed. There's nothing you can do about it that I'm aware of.. I would go with the Second Gen sub and scrap the rear steer... I'm getting ready to cut the sub frame off my 64 Pontiac because the handling is always unpredictable. Go with the front steer...


Is your response to boneheadzz?!? If so, I think you might have something confused. 2nd Gens are not rear steer.

[boneheadzz]

I think he was saying go with the second gen sub and scrap the original 1st gen sub which is a rear steer.

I never heard of there being an issue of front vs. rear steer but I'm no expert by a long shot.

But the main thing I'm wondering is if anyone has actually swapped subframes and had some sort of success... street car, track car, drag car or whatever.

Thanks.
Mike

[makoshark]

What pitts64 is referring to is bumpsteer, which the first gen Camaro's suffer greatly from. GM addressed this in the 2nd gen Camaro's by making them front steer. I'm no expert at all this either, but this is the way I understand it.

The price difference between modified stock sub compared to full aftermarket is minimal. The performance difference, from the results I've seen with others running both, is comparable. I went the modified stock sub route. The way I did it was buy the components as I could afford them rather than taking the hit all at once. That, I believe, is where the biggest difference between the two come into play.

[dipren443]

I think he was saying go with the second gen sub and scrap the original 1st gen sub which is a rear steer.

I never heard of there being an issue of front vs. rear steer but I'm no expert by a long shot.

But the main thing I'm wondering is if anyone has actually swapped subframes and had some sort of success... street car, track car, drag car or whatever.

Thanks.
Mike


Yeah, that was my interpretation as well, but his response was a little vague. Was just trying to clarify...

[Ben@SpeedTech]

pic of the speedtech. i am grafting it to a rear frame section i made to house the 350z irs. once i decided to do the rear frame and irs, i really had to get the speedtech front to get a good dimensional tube to graft to. but, the numbers did work out as mentioned in post above.

https://static1.pt-content.com/images/pt/2013/09/20130207_162927_zps0885b4c8-1.jpg (http://s7.photobucket.com/user/scooter350z/media/20130207_162927_zps0885b4c8.jpg.html)

Hey Scott, that's some cool stuff goin' on there!

[Ben@SpeedTech]

Thanks everyone for the Speedtech plugs. As has been said, in the grand scheme of things a new subframe is a little more but for example ours has some adjustability advantages for really dialing in your combination, something that is limited on a stock subframe. It runs a rear mount rack and pinion with redesigned steering arms that address that bumpsteer issue and steers clear (no pun intended) of reinventing everything to convert to front steer. Unless I missed someone saying, it could be a factor in the equation to consider it also has some resale value if you were ever to sell the car. We've sold many subframes over the years and no one has ever said they wished they'd just bought bolt on factory frame parts. We have heard the opposite though, that they'd wished they'd just spent the little bit more for the complete frame. We feel for what you get our frame is not only a great way to make your car handle well, it's very competitively priced. Check it out here to compare (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=8/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd8.htm).

One of the many advantages of an aftermarket subframe is true coilover shocks. For the budget minded folks that need to stick with the factory frame we offer a relatively easy coilover conversion kit, and sell it alone as our "Chacane" (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=12/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd12.htm) kit or in our complete GT Suspension Package (http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=260/category_id=23/mode=prod/prd260.htm) which includes both front suspension and our rear Torque Arm suspension. The GT package comes out cheaper, up to half the cost, of some aftermarket subframes that are out there. The coilover part of the conversion requires simply cutting out the factory shock bracket and enlarging the hole for the coilover to go through, then welding a new shock bracket in place. Honestly it's really straight forward and fairly simple to do.

[Ben@SpeedTech]

On the swapping later gen subframes- That's a whole ton of work that I don't think is worth it at all. Consider the floor pans are totally different, mounting holes are in different locations, the frame rails are farther apart, the track width is different so you'll have to run front wheel drive like positive offset wheels, you'll have to convert the steering shaft, I don't believe the factory 2nd gen brakes are any bigger than 1st gen discs, to put aftermarket brakes on a 2nd gen requires cutting/ modifying the factory spindles whereas there are simple bolt on brackets available for 1st gen spindles, the radiator support is different, the front ears on the frame are different and won't line up at all to your bumper brackets, and there's probably more to it that I'm not remembering. I once saw a 1st gen Camaro that had a second gen frame swap and it was a mess. By the time you get everything converted and give it some aftermarket parts lovin for better handling, you probably could've saved money (and a bunch of headaches) by buying an aftermarket 1st gen subframe. If a better steering configuration is what you're mostly after we sell rear steer racks for first gen frames that eliminate the issues with the factory steering, and brake options are wide open.