Protouring Raffle Poll

[Bill Howell]

Ok guys, there has been alot of discussion about a protouring build and raffle here. This is only in the talking stages right now, however imput is needed from everyone. I am attaching a poll here. It is simply this, would you buy a $100 ticket, or would you buy a $50 ticket. Those are the only two options. However, please vote only if you would buy a ticket, and if you would buy more than one, just post how many you would.
This is only a survey, not a commitment. We just need to know how many are serious about this and how many would just be spectators.
This will be a blind survey, so no one will know who voted each way, just a total. If you post that you would buy 2, we will simply add one to the count.

Just please vote how you would buy.

If this does come to pass, the car will be bought, work started and updates on the build made before we ever open up the raffle ticket sales.
Thanks,
Bill

[MuscleRodz]

You need a both choice Bill. I would buy at least one $100 ticket or two $50 tickets.

Mike

[jy211]

what kind of car are we talking here? Camaro? Cuda? Mustang? ETC???

I think that may be a question fellow members have....

[Bill Howell]

Mike,
Vote $100 in that case. If the deal went the other way you would simple purchase two tickets.
jy211,
This is simply a survey on who would buy tickets, not about what it would be. I am sure the first year would be a first gen Camaro, hopefully a 69, but before you actually bought a ticket you would know. This is just about ticket price.

[Travis B]

Who is building the car????? Do we know that yet?

[jy211]

OK. I'd be in to buy a few...I think the $50 would be an easier selling ticket...

If this was open to everyone's customers as well....I think the $50 ticket would be a better bet

[steemin]

Is it for a Panther Pink 70 Cuda built by John Smith with an LS1 etc.....
Damn guys..Poor Bill is trying to guage interest.
If we do it I am sure it will be nice..

I am in for a $100 ticket.
Scott

[JMitch19]

I'd be in for $100. I think Darcy would also be in at that price too.

[dropit69]

bill same here id prolly buy 2 50 dollars ones too..or 1 100

[ProdigyCustoms]

Speaking from experiance, if someone wants 100, they can buy 2 - 50s, the total of tickets and odds for the buyer stays the same. This way a $50 player is not excluded helping to assure all the tickets sell.

If I do it, I would only consider a 69 Camaro the first year. After that, I would like to try something way different, but first one needs to be safe even if it is another Camaro.

[trapin]

I'd buy 3 $50 tickets and only 1 $100 ticket.

A '69 Camaro? :bsjerk:

Good God.....can't we do a different car?

How about a Mopar? It doesn't have to be a hard to find or restore Mopar. Duster's and Dart's make KILLER Pro-Touring cars. Or how about a different Chevy like a '69-'70 Chevelle or '65-'66 Malibu.

Hell, even another Mustang would be sweet too.

[usc2001gc]

I'd buy at least 2-$100 / 4-5 $50.

[Red73]

I've spent $100 on a raffle ticket to win a 2005 Corvette, I'd spend it to win a nice pro-touring car. Don't tell my wife. Rod

[MuscleRodz]

OK I voted $100. I would just end up buying fewer tickets.

Mike

[Travis B]

A '69 Camaro? :bsjerk:

Good God.....can't we do a different car?

How about a Mopar? It doesn't have to be a hard to find or restore Mopar. Duster's and Dart's make KILLER Pro-Touring cars. Or how about a different Chevy like a '69-'70 Chevelle or '65-'66 Malibu.

Hell, even another Mustang would be sweet too.

I agree
Anything but a camaro....

[rob07002]

I'm in for 2 $100, I would really like to have my car done though!

[Steve1968LS2]

I'd buy 3 $50 tickets and only 1 $100 ticket.

A '69 Camaro? :bsjerk:

Good God.....can't we do a different car?

How about a Mopar? It doesn't have to be a hard to find or restore Mopar. Duster's and Dart's make KILLER Pro-Touring cars. Or how about a different Chevy like a '69-'70 Chevelle or '65-'66 Malibu.

Hell, even another Mustang would be sweet too.

Well the '69 Camaro is a good choice for several reasons..

1. you can still find them for a reasonable price if you try hard enough (as opposed to a 70 Cuda or fastback Stang)

2. there is a HUGE aftermarket and that would be helpful in looking for parts donations from site sponsors and mfg's.. For example, what would DSE donate to a mopar project?

3. like it or not they are the most popular car out there right now and as such would get the most people excited to get one for $100.. who wouldn't want to win a free PT '69 Camaro? If you built some offbeat car a lot of people would not be as interested.

4. sounds like the plan for this is to be a regular thing so it is important that the first one be a HUGE success, that will make future cars (even more offbeat ones) easier to do since the program will have a track record of success. did that make sense?

Now the tricky part would be to get Dynacorn to donate one of thier bodies.. lol.. Im sure that build would generate a lot of magazine interest. But the project would be better off finding a clean roller since it would require less work and would not nickle and dime the coffers to death on all the various little parts. The project would also not have the VIN number issues and other liabilitie concerns.

<-- would buy a $100 ticket

[69rs]

Sorry non-believers, but a 69 Camaro will sell tickets!:)

[Steve1968LS2]

I'm in for 2 $100, I would really like to have my car done though!

Having someones car done presents a TON of problems..

1. what if you want it done differently than the built calls for? After all the Overhauling people have no say in what is done to thier cars.

2. this would preclude maketing an image of the final car.. people would be buying into a promise of a car rather than a tangible car that exists

3. I see much more liability in them doing the winners car then in just giving away a car.. how to complain about a little issue on a free car compared to a little issue on "your pride and joy"

4. what if they don't overhaul the car fast enough for the owners tastes?

5. you can always sell the won car to pay the taxes and to put the cash into your own project :)

[Steve1968LS2]

Sorry non-believers, but a 69 Camaro will sell tickets!:)

Your sister and I came to the same conclusion.. :poke:

[trapin]

Those other cars would sell tickets too. And I'm not a non-believer. :throw:

Do the '69 Camaro if you must, I'll still buy my tickets. But next time we do this it should be a different car.

.......if there is a next time.

[Travis B]

Sorry non-believers, but a 69 Camaro will sell tickets!:)


I never said it wouldn't sell tickets I just tired of seeing the same old thing!

[69rs]

Your sister and I came to the same conclusing..
She asked me to send this to you, since it's your favorite pic of her.
https://static1.pt-content.com/images/noimg.gif

[Steve1968LS2]

She asked me to send this to you, since it's your favorite pic of her.


Wow, I can see the family resembleance.. :rotfl:

Ok, enough frivolity.. back on topic

Like I said, first car should be a 69 Camaro and the success of that venture will allow for the second car to be something else. But the fact of the matter is that this is being marketed to "the masses" and as such it has to have wide appeal.

[69rs]

Sorry!:wf: but he deserved it!:lol:

[Travis B]

But the fact of the matter is that this is being marketed to "the masses" and as such it has to have wide appeal.


I can understand the marketing and popularity of a camaro! Does anyone know who would be building the car?

[69rs]

I heard that Frank wanted to.:secret:

[rob07002]

Having someones car done presents a TON of problems..

1. what if you want it done differently than the built calls for? After all the Overhauling people have no say in what is done to thier cars.

Good Point

2. this would preclude maketing an image of the final car.. people would be buying into a promise of a car rather than a tangible car that exists

Good Point

3. I see much more liability in them doing the winners car then in just giving away a car.. how to complain about a little issue on a free car compared to a little issue on "your pride and joy"

Extremly good point

4. what if they don't overhaul the car fast enough for the owners tastes?

I hear ya!

5. you can always sell the won car to pay the taxes and to put the cash into your own project :)

TAXES!!!! no one said anything about taxes

Well then I say build a PT Omni
Screw it I never win anything anyway...

[MuscleRodz]

I think from what I am understanding is Frank and Prodigy Customs will be building it. Besides the experience in car raffles, he also builds killer cars. No complaints here. However, I think once the ball is rolling, that the members here could vote on the direction of the project making sure to use any parts donated. That way the forum would have a say in what we feel a Pro-Touring car should be.

Mike

[Travis B]

I think from what I am understanding is Frank and Prodigy Customs will be building it. Besides the experience in car raffles, he also builds killer cars. No complaints here. However, I think once the ball is rolling, that the members here could vote on the direction of the project making sure to use any parts donated. That way the forum would have a say in what we feel a Pro-Touring car should be.

Mike


I see no problem with Frank building it....he has built his share of first gen F-bodys from what I have seen!

[bnickel]

why not do a 70-73 'maro instead? that's really the only bodystyle camaro i like. if i won i would probably sell the 69 but if it was a 70-73 i'd drive the wheels off of it.

[Steve1968LS2]

TAXES!!!! no one said anything about taxes

Well then I say build a PT Omni
Screw it I never win anything anyway...

Same as on Overhauling..

You have to pay tax on the winnings just like you hit the lotto. You could work the labor as "donated" but the winner would still be responsible for IRS taxes on the value of the car/parts plus local taxes and license..

Still, it's pretty cheap for a PT car..

I don't know of a way around the IRS deal but I am not a tax guy.

[HatTrick]

I think from what I am understanding is Frank and Prodigy Customs will be building it. Besides the experience in car raffles, he also builds killer cars. No complaints here. However, I think once the ball is rolling, that the members here could vote on the direction of the project making sure to use any parts donated. That way the forum would have a say in what we feel a Pro-Touring car should be.

Mike

The problem with this idea is there are as many opinions as to what PT is as members. Some recent threads show this. Like you mentioned, Prodigy is fully capable, if they say they are building it PT then thats what they'll do. I would want Prodigy to decide what level of forum input to consider, especially since its their give-away.

Respecting your opinion,
Chad

[jy211]

why not do a 70-73 'maro instead? that's really the only bodystyle camaro i like. if i won i would probably sell the 69 but if it was a 70-73 i'd drive the wheels off of it.

I've got one of those laying around....:lol:

and I might be willing to trade it towards a paint job for my 56' 2 door!

[ProdigyCustoms]

Steve understands!

[HatTrick]

Having someones car done presents a TON of problems..

1. what if you want it done differently than the built calls for? After all the Overhauling people have no say in what is done to thier cars.

2. this would preclude maketing an image of the final car.. people would be buying into a promise of a car rather than a tangible car that exists

3. I see much more liability in them doing the winners car then in just giving away a car.. how to complain about a little issue on a free car compared to a little issue on "your pride and joy"

4. what if they don't overhaul the car fast enough for the owners tastes?

5. you can always sell the won car to pay the taxes and to put the cash into your own project :)

Responces:
1. The build would be driven by a budget (I would imagine). If you are within that constraint, then let the owner be involved in the car's direction.

2. True, can't argue with that. But, DIY and overhaulin do it all the time, granted those are give-aways and not raffles.

3. Liability is only paperwork. There would have to be some sort of release for any car give away.

4. Schedule could be defined in the Rules and Conditions.

5. You could do this with any car.

Personally, I like the idea of having my own car done most. I think that would drive ticket sales as much as being able to market a car. My answers are not educated through any experience, so I may be off base, but these are my thoughts on the above isssues.

[ssdeuce]

A would buy atleast 4 @ $50.

[Steve1968LS2]

Steve understands!

Thanks..

I think the only input from the members should be on the color/look of the car. Maybe Kris could render the car in 3 or 4 color/styles and everyone could vote.

That would be fun, involve the board and yet not turn into a circus where people are arguing over DSE vs Global West coil overs and that sort of stuff.. If we spend time voting on every aspect of the car nothing will get done.

[Steve1968LS2]

Responces:
1. The build would be driven by a budget (I would imagine). If you are within that constraint, then let the owner be involved in the car's direction.

2. True, can't argue with that. But, DIY and overhaulin do it all the time, granted those are give-aways and not raffles.

3. Liability is only paperwork. There would have to be some sort of release for any car give away.

4. Schedule could be defined in the Rules and Conditions.

5. You could do this with any car.

Personally, I like the idea of having my own car done most. I think that would drive ticket sales as much as being able to market a car. My answers are not educated through any experience, so I may be off base, but these are my thoughts on the above isssues.

Valid points but what if the owner has a 64 Riviera and wants that done.. now you have a car with little to no aftermarket (that equals no donated parts) and a LOT more fab work. Also, since there is no car being raffled it will be impossible to get sponsors on board since they will not even know if the winning car will be able to use thier products.

There is something anti-climatic about raffleing off a promise where all the action takes place AFTER the winner is chosen and everyone quits caring as much because they don't have a horse in the race any more.

Also, what about the guys that want to play but don't have a car? The Overhauling approach is good in concept but tough to execute, especially from a marketing standpoint.. When you are advertising the raffle what would you show? An empty lift with the words "imagine your car here"? By having a tangeble item that people can see and want you are selling something rather than the idea of something.

The excitement of the Raffle pretty much ends once the winner is picked. By building the car afterwards the interest level in the build will be very minimal compared to watching the build of a car that YOU MIGHT WIN. Watching the car come together is the sort of thing that makes people buy tickets and pay attention.

I hope some of that made sense..

[rob07002]

Valid points but what if the owner has a 64 Riviera and wants that done.. now you have a car with little to no aftermarket (that equals no donated parts) and a LOT more fab work. Also, since there is no car being raffled it will be impossible to get sponsors on board since they will not even know if the winning car will be able to use thier products.

There is something anti-climatic about raffleing off a promise where all the action takes place AFTER the winner is chosen and everyone quits caring as much because they don't have a horse in the race any more.

Also, what about the guys that want to play but don't have a car? The Overhauling approach is good in concept but tough to execute, especially from a marketing standpoint.. When you are advertising the raffle what would you show? An empty lift with the words "imagine your car here"? By having a tangeble item that people can see and want you are selling something rather than the idea of something.

The excitement of the Raffle pretty much ends once the winner is picked. By building the car afterwards the interest level in the build will be very minimal compared to watching the build of a car that YOU MIGHT WIN. Watching the car come together is the sort of thing that makes people buy tickets and pay attention.

I hope some of that made sense..

Steve you sold me!

I'll take one "Mule" convertible in 2005 Mercedes charcoal gray metallic, white houndstooth deluxe int, white top, and with white z stripes.....PLEASE!

[KrisHorton]

Thanks..

I think the only input from the members should be on the color/look of the car. Maybe Kris could render the car in 3 or 4 color/styles and everyone could vote.



I'd be up for that. Builder settles on the type of car, members settle the look of the car. Fair enough, right?

Kris

[kmcanally]

amen brother Steve....

Is there any talk about PHR getting involved and featuring the build-up month to month like they did for the Mule and Malitude? This publicity might help get more manufactures on board because of the obvious exposure. If the build-up articles are anywhere near as popular as the Mule buildup it would be a huge success.

[MuscleRodz]

I was not implying that every decision be put up for vote and turning it into a circus. But I think there should be a certain amount of member involvement besides buying tickets.

Mike

[Travis B]

I was not implying that every decision be put up for vote and turning it into a circus. But I think there should be a certain amount of member involvement besides buying tickets.

Mike

I agree Mike

Maybe....

Color, wheels, interior theme, powertrain! Do a poll just like this post

[Bill Howell]

I have enjoyed reading all the comments here. As everyone can see, there are alot of issues to address here before any tickets go on sell.
However I feel we can work through them.
As for what parts we would use, I am sure whatever venders stepped up first would be on board. Hopefully some of them that lurk here will see the potential of this and step up. When you are looking for donated parts, it is hard to kick a gift horse in the teeth.
Of course, no decision has been made about who would build it, but I will assure everyone that Frank has much more experience with raffles than anyone else who has stepped up so he will certainly be involved with that part of the promotion. I know that his shop is swamped with work at the moment, and not sure he has the time, even if we wanted him to do it, but that is not an issue at the moment anyway.
SEMA 2006 would be the planned give away date, so as everyone can see, this is something that must start soon.
Mike, I agree with you 100% that members here should be involved in some of the decisions and direction of the build. Certainly, we could not build something that would rival the mule, but this will be a car anyone here would be proud to own.
As with any give away, there would be a tax consequence for the winner. No different than hitting the jackpot at the slots, or winning a car off the radio. That is a fact of life and I for one do not want the tax man on me.
Tony, Travis and others, I hear you about the 69 Camaro choice. As Steve pointed out, like it or not it is the hot item right now and so many aftermarket parts out there that it just makes sense to build one for our first car. Everyone knows that I like 69's too, but surely understands they are not my first choice. However, I just think we would get the best bang for the buck with one. If this one is a hit though, the next one would be something different.
Lastly let me add this, I am just throwing things out there right now, trying to get a feel of where this is heading. I am in no way speaking for Larry, Ralph or anyone else, just gathering information. I do feel this is something that will work, but also am a realist and know that the homework has to be done first.
Thanks again for all the imput and feel free to add to this discussion as you think of things.

[brads69]

count me in for 1-$100 or 2-$50.

[Damn True]

Same as on Overhauling..

You have to pay tax on the winnings just like you hit the lotto. You could work the labor as "donated" but the winner would still be responsible for IRS taxes on the value of the car/parts plus local taxes and license..

Still, it's pretty cheap for a PT car..

I don't know of a way around the IRS deal but I am not a tax guy.


We could get around the tax dealio by merely stating on the registration transfer that the car was purchased for $100 (or whatever the ticket price winds up being).
Those who donate parts $ services can write off the cost as promotional expenses.

[YoungGun]

As far as the cost of the tickets. It seems that alot of people who can pay for $100 will buy 2 $50, someone stated well then lets just do the 100, its the same thing.
I just think that if you can afford the $100 then you can buy two $50, but if you cant afford the 100$ you probably can buy a single 50$. I think its better to be cheaper, it gives a broader range a change to buy a ticket, and those who can spend more can just buy multiple tickets.

I hope that made sense.

Tim

[Steve1968LS2]

well, just keep in mind that if all the people who would buy one $100 ticket buys two $50 tickets that just increases the number of tickets in the pool and decreases any one persons odds of winning :)

I'm fine with $50 tickets or $100 tickets.. just thinking out loud.

Oh, and the tax thing.. I don't picture the IRS being that easy to get by.. Didn't Boyd get busted by the CA tax man for registering old super high dollar cars as old low buck cars?

The point is that we need to find out about this from a tax professional and not rely on internet rumors and hearsay.. In general Uncle Sam wants his share of your windfalls whether they be a big $ bonus at work, a winning lotto ticket or winning a car. It all falls under the income catagory..

[96Z28SS]

I'd buy $150

[ProdigyCustoms]

I will answer the tax issue, the winner will get a 1099 for the value of the car, or else the builder / promoter will not be able to expense it, plain and simple. However the value of the car is not the total of the tickets sold.

A lot of these post are concerned about sponsorship. It won't matter, the giveaway can not be promoted based on speculation or promises for sponsorship. It would be financial suicide to base expenses / cost on promises of parts. As anyone here knows that has ever dealt with sponsorship, they can go away in a second. As an example, I recently had a $2500 sponsorship that had been arranged for months, almost go away by one day. It just so happened I called on another issue, and got notice that my guy was leaving and we had to move product that minute, as it probably would not be available in the new management!

Additionally, it will be extremely difficult to get sponsors to give up product before the project is even started. So unless there are parts on the floor before the announcement, then cost has to be based on purchasing parts. If any part sponsorships are secured, that should be to the benefit of the promoter that is funding the project and taking the risk.

I like the idea of the board and Horton designing the look. Personally I have blown my wad on the last few we have done and can use new ideas.But who has ultimate say? How do you settle disagreements in style? Voting only causes heart ache for the members that do not get their way. Sometimes it is best in these situations to develop the project, present it to the community, and let it eat. Again, there is a incredible risk if it is not managed and promoted properly.

As of this writing, we have 3 terrific pages of input, and 70 votes. The vote total right now is:

40 will buy $100
25 will buy $50
3 will buy $150
2 will buy $200
and 1 will buy $300

So we have $6500 in promises, About 6% home, we only have another $93,500 to go!

[TonyL]

The total value of donated parts and actual price of the car would be what you're taxed on. The vendors have to show the retail value of the parts donated and labor to get a write off. These figures are used to determine overall value of the car.

Im all for 100$ tickets in an effort to keep the odds of winning as high as possible.

[HatTrick]

Valid points but what if the owner has a 64 Riviera and wants that done.. now you have a car with little to no aftermarket (that equals no donated parts) and a LOT more fab work. Also, since there is no car being raffled it will be impossible to get sponsors on board since they will not even know if the winning car will be able to use thier products.

There is something anti-climatic about raffleing off a promise where all the action takes place AFTER the winner is chosen and everyone quits caring as much because they don't have a horse in the race any more.

Also, what about the guys that want to play but don't have a car? The Overhauling approach is good in concept but tough to execute, especially from a marketing standpoint.. When you are advertising the raffle what would you show? An empty lift with the words "imagine your car here"? By having a tangeble item that people can see and want you are selling something rather than the idea of something.

The excitement of the Raffle pretty much ends once the winner is picked. By building the car afterwards the interest level in the build will be very minimal compared to watching the build of a car that YOU MIGHT WIN. Watching the car come together is the sort of thing that makes people buy tickets and pay attention.

I hope some of that made sense..

Thanks for replying. You are dead on about the exitement dying off at the end of the raffle. I'm convinced. :icon996: :icon996:

Either way, I'm still in for a couple tickets.

[Steve1968LS2]

Thanks for replying. You are dead on about the exitement dying off at the end of the raffle. I'm convinced. :icon996: :icon996:

Either way, I'm still in for a couple tickets.

I'm like that broken clock that is right twice a day.. lol..

Keep in mind the POLL Choices other than $50 or $100 were added way after the poll started so the higher dollar choices were not available to the first 40 people who voted..

And we have lots of lurkers here on pt.com that would not vote but would probley buy a ticket. I say sell raffle tickets to those outside the site if necessary to make it a success..

[Jim Nilsen]

Doesn't it just make sense to go with the $50 ticket. You increase your odds to win with 2 tickets for $100 even if there are twice as many people in the raffle. I'm not a big gambler but I still know that 2 chances are better than one.

Watch me pull a pt car out of my .......

Jim Nilsen

[TonyL]

jim, lets say that the total value of the car is a 1000 dollars, they are only going to sell 10 tickets at 100 bucks each. or 20 at 50, which raffle is better?

thing is, they are only going to sell a certain number of tickets.

[ProdigyCustoms]

jim, lets say that the total value of the car is a 1000 dollars, they are only going to sell 10 tickets at 100 bucks each. or 20 at 50, which raffle is better?

thing is, they are only going to sell a certain number of tickets.

exactly, if you spend $100 weather it be one ticket for $100, or 2 tickets for $50, in the $1000 raffle, your odds are still 1 in 10

[Martin71RS]

will non US residents be able to participate????
I would like to win a car built by Frank.....

[ProdigyCustoms]

Hell Yeah Martin.

[paul67]

Before a vote on who would buy tickets as things in people lives quickly change, that someone should take control of the project not the building as that seems to be done,but getting the parts and the sponsers on board, because theres so many varables, like type of engine, carb ,LT1,LS1 . manual, auto. rack steering , box steering list goes on .Poss the person to run maybe has or no's someone in marketing, to get press coverage as that whats the sponsers will be looking for .
just a thought.
paul67

[69rs]

Y'all just hurry up and build my car! Cause I'm gonna WIN!! :3rd: Woo-hoo!:woot:

[69rs]

Another 69 Camaro? Can I do that? :dunno: Yes, yes I can!:fingersx:

[camcojb]

Marquez Design would be willing to donate parts we make towards this project if it fits the theme of your build.

Jody

[MuscleRodz]

Y'all just hurry up and build my car! Cause I'm gonna WIN!! :3rd: Woo-hoo!:woot:
You don't get anything for third. :lol:

Mike

[69rs]

Crap! Now you tell me! :hand:

[Jim Nilsen]

2 chances are still better than 1 just like buying 200 lottery tickets are more chances than buying 1 no matter how many tickets are sold. You have to play to win and the more plays you have the more chances you have to win and since they will only draw one ticket unlike the lottery where more than one person can have the winning ticket , right? Half of something is still better than all of nothing but that isn't how the raffle will be played.

Like I said I am not much of a gambler , didn't even drop a nickel in Vegas when I was there. I just like the idea of 2 chances for my $100 instead of one and maybe some lucky guy who can't pay $100 can get in on the action. I did say I wasn't much of a gambler didn't I?

2 chances in 10 sound better than 1 and 4 chances in twenty etc.,etc.

I always plan on losing when it comes to gambling money which is why I gamble with things like going into business and more tangible ways of having at least some control over the odds. There is a difference between odds and chances.

Cab driver in Vegas told me that it is usually the person that doesn't gamble that is the luckier to win , beating all of the odds.

Jim Nilsen

[TonyL]

Jim, you are still missing it. they are going to cap the dollar value of tickets sold. Lets say they only plan to sell 1000 dollars worth and thats it. They could sell em at 10 bucks each, or they could sell at 100 each. if they sold em at 100, your chances would be 1 out of 10. not 1 or even 10 out of a hundered.

In the lottery they let you buy as many as you want, no cap, and add the money you spent to the pot.

[moparguy]

The last time I purchased tickets for a raffle a big fraud was exposed, because the raffle winner turned out to be someone already predetermined to win...in other words alot of people had been scammed. The car that was supposed to be raffled off was a red 1991 Corvette ZR1.
At the time i had purchased $200 in tickets. :wedgie:


Who and what will keep this raffle fair??? :poke:

[myclone]

Im in for $100 ticket no matter what kinda car it is (within reason) as long as its tastefully done. If its a car I really like (66 Chevelle..hint..hint) then I might raid the cookie jar and spring for two $100 tickets.

My only concerns would be resale clauses or something similar. Hypothetic situation: Say I won but the car being raffled was an 84 chevette that had gotten the pro touring make over and if I couldnt turn around and sell it due to some sort of resale clause then Id pass.

My .02 :drive:

[Jim Nilsen]

I don't believe that we are having this raffle to beat the house or the odds. I know what you are thinking but does it apply here for what we are trying to accomplish?

We have 3000 people that are members and more who come here and not all of them have $100 for a ticket and if they did they probably can afford to build their own car rather nicely.

I believe this raffle is for the sponsors and the good of spreading Pro-Touring to others that don't quite get it yet. If 3000 people buy tickets more people will know about the sponsors, the lifestyle and maybe be lucky enough to get a $75,000 plus car. Without a large number of people the value of the car won't be able to be as much. 3000 x $25 is $75,000 if we go $50 it could be a $150,000 car.You can't win the Mule for less in my opinion and I would like the car to be as nice as the Mule. And if I was a sponsor I would want as many people as possible to know and enter. PHR has a rather large subscription rate yet advertisiers sometimes barley get enough response from an add to make it worthwhile.I know because I have been there. Doing advertising like this is as much of a risk or more for the time,money and effort involved and I would like to see it happen more than once.

I would rather spend less for a chance to win a higher dollar car than a lower dollar car and have a higher ticket price. Odds are I won't win it if there are only 10 people involved. Do you think a raffle of 10 people for $5,000 per chance for a $50,000 car would help the sponsors? or bring PT to a higher level just because the odds are better?

This isn't about being able to get an expensive PT car for free to me. If you all want to have it be that then sell raffle tickets for your own car and see if it will be worth it.

For those of you with a lot of money to buy in, buy a lot of tickets. You keep telling the odds will be the same so it shouldn't be a problem for you. For the guy that can't spend that or the guy that isn't much of a gambler, high dollar raffles are a deterent. I usually only buy raffle tickets that the money goes to a good cause. I personally don't like the gambling boats and casinos for the reason that poor people just spend money on hope instead of the things in life that are important.

I hope you understand that from a business point of view that the more coverage that this gets the better it is for the sponsors and that is why they would want to do it. That's why car dealers donate cars for charity raffles.

Lets not let greed get in the way just so someone who can afford to build the car anyway can get it for cheap and brag about it.Keeping the little guy out of it won't help the cause since we all know who the suppliers are and what Pro- Touring is all about.

I really want to encourage instead of discourage people to come here.

Just my thoughts and whether you agree or not probably won't matter to the winner anyway unless he wins with 1 $25 ticket and knows he beat the odds and POed some guy who bought $500 worth of tickets.

Jim Nilsen

[67Malibu]

I would be in for at least a couple $50 - or 1 $100 - depending on the car (Chevelle) I might buy more -

[4OfaKind]

Jim, you are still missing it. they are going to cap the dollar value of tickets sold. Lets say they only plan to sell 1000 dollars worth and thats it. They could sell em at 10 bucks each, or they could sell at 100 each. if they sold em at 100, your chances would be 1 out of 10. not 1 or even 10 out of a hundered.

In the lottery they let you buy as many as you want, no cap, and add the money you spent to the pot.

Actually Tony you may be the one who is not getting it. Using your example and Jim's theory, the odds are better for the guy who has 9 of the 10 or 19 of the 20 tickets as opposed to the guy who just bought one. Like the NBA lottery that is weighted for the biggest season loser. But also like that lottery the long shot could still win. (Hence the guy w/ only one ticket could still win ala the Orlando Magic). But odds are not important to the raffle only to those buying the tickets. I would be in for 1 - $100 or 2 - $50.

[Ralph LoGrasso]

Actually Tony you may be the one who is not getting it. Using your example and Jim's theory, the odds are better for the guy who has 9 of the 10 or 19 of the 20 tickets as opposed to the guy who just bought one. Like the NBA lottery that is weighted for the biggest season loser. But also like that lottery the long shot could still win. (Hence the guy w/ only one ticket could still win ala the Orlando Magic). But odds are not important to the raffle only to those buying the tickets. I would be in for 1 - $100 or 2 - $50.


I understand what you're saying, but from a simple mathematical standpoint, the odds are the same. The probability of someone winning is exactly the same whether you hold 1 out of 10 tickets or 2 out of 20, or 10 out of 100, etc... It's all the same. This is what Tony was saying in regards to capping the ticket sales. If you sell $1000 worth of tickets, the law of probabilty holds true whether you sell the tickets for $100, and everyone buys 1, $50 and everyone buys 2, or even $25 and everyone buys 4. Your chances of winning in each of the 3 scenarios is still 1 in 10.

As long as the ticket sales are capped, and you spend the same amount of money on tickets, no matter the price, your odds of winning will not increase. Ie: You buy $200 worth of tickets-- 2 @ $100 or 3 @ $50. Chances in a $65,000 raffle are 325:1 both times.

[TonyL]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Or I'm just retarded.
/did real bad in math.

[MuscleRodz]

I see where Tony is coming from and I would like to have better odds as well. But go back to one of Frank's posts and 4th grade math and probablities. You want to find the amount that most people will pay and yield the most earnigs at the same time. Say you have a $10000 dollar raffle, and at $100 a pop, only 80 people purchase one. Then you have an identical raffle at $50 ea. and they sell out. Which was most profitable?

Mike

[JoshC]

Pick one and lets get started. :cheers:

[YoungGun]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Or I'm just retarded.
/did real bad in math.

Your math works but just think about it this way...if you buy one 100 dollar ticker...you have whatever odds it is. 1-100. So if it were 50 dollar tickets and you buy 2, you have the same odds. Same odds for same amount of money, but more people can get involved when they buy just the single $50.

I am a college kid, I dont want to spend 100$, thats why I am saying 50$...we all got our reasons...I am not trying to pick on yours, its what most of us are thinking anyway!

Tim

[Jim Nilsen]

Since this won't happen without the sponsors. It would be best to find what each one wants to bring to the table. If we let Frank get the lowdown from them all and maybe a few more that want to show up and be included. Maybe one of those engine masters competition engines or something to put in by a magazine :attn: we could have one heck of a car for a pretty good price.

When Frank figures it out we could then negotiate enough tickets to get Larry what the site needs to keep going at the pace it is growing. Since this is a non profit site? we could then decide how many tickets would be sold to suggest the odds.

I still feel that if you are worried about the odds you are losing the spirit of the whole deal. Guys with more money get more chances and get better odds. I like the idea of $25 tickets and 4 chances for $100 over 1 chance for $100 but that is just me maybe. I just want more coverage and more people in it to keep it interesting to more of us and others that may watch. We could also let the sponsors decide since it is their donations that will be creating the car anyway and the more people the better for them and that is what will help build the next car after car if it works at all for them. It may take 5000 people in their eyes to make it worth their advertising dollarsto go far enough.

We need to talk it over a bunch more before we get it right so we can do it many times over.

Lastly if you can't afford to lose your money , don't play.This is supposed to be about fun building the ultimate PT car from our sponsors parts by the place that is supposed to know how to do it best. It is the ultimate reflection on who we are as a group. lets not blow it.


Jim Nilsen

[4OfaKind]

Actually im looking at it from a totaly different perspective. I'd rather be in the raffle with the fewest number of possible competitors. If the tickets in a 1000 dollar raffle are 100 bucks, I have a in 10 chance of winning if I bought just 1 ticket. Assuming others dont spend more (and they might,) there are only 9 more players in the game with me. Now break that same raffle into 50 dollar tickets and now there's 19 people (assuming they all bought one), or any other broad combo now because people will start buying multiple tickets.

My point is, that by raising the price of the tickets you are decreasing the number of competitors in the raffle. cheaper tickets=more people playing=worse odds for me.

Ok Tony, I see your point. So now more questions arise.

What is the purpose of the raffle? Promote PT, make a profit, or just give a car away?

Like I said odds don't matter to the raffle just the ones buying the tickets. The purpose will dictate the odds. If you wish to make money you will sell more tickets than necessary = lower odds. If you wish to promote PT you will sell cheaper tickets = lower odds. If you just want to have a raffle for the sake of having a raffle you will sell higher priced tickets = better odds. The odds will take care of themselves, when will this thing start?

[Frank69]

Can I throw a word of caution out from the legal side of the house? A raffle, by legal definition is the same thing as a lottery, which is gambling. There is a formula that is used to determine if the raffle/lottery/contest is gambling, and therefore per se illegal. It is:


Prize + Chance + Consideration = Gambling

The prize is the car, the chance is the drawing and the consideration is the cost of the ticket.

In most states the only legal lottery is the state lottery (such as in CA or the multi-state Powerball). Some states have an exception for charities to hold raffles/lotteries. Generally, the charity must be a bona fide non-profit organization, be registered with the state, and is limited to the number of such raffles it may hold each year.

In order to make the raffle legal (if it is not for charitable purposes, and registered as such), you must take out one of the components, either prize, chance or consideration. Most commercial raffles/contests that you see in magazines take out the consideration aspect, which is the easiest. They do this by offering tickets for free (no consideration). Most of the time they put this in the disclaimer, and someone can send them a self-addressed, stamped envelope and receive 1 ticket for free. A person can do this as many times as they want, however.

I've gone on too long, shoot me an e-mail or a pm if you want to know further (and why I know this crap!)

Frank