Suspension Experience: Heidt vs BMR vs Hotchkis

[gordonr1973]

Hi all;

I've been researching upgrades for my 68 Firebird and I want to hear some experiences from people that have used any of these and what sort of suggestions they would have if they were going to do it again.

I intend to upgrade the brakes to a set of Wilwoods or similar and run the usual rim & tire upgrades.

I have a budget of around $5,000 for reworking the suspension.

Here are a few related links that I found:

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99008-Hotchkis-TVS-Stage-2-on-68-Firebird

https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?80483-BMR-Torque-Arm-Installed-on-my-73-Firebird/page3&highlight=TORQUE+ARM

http://www.hotrodhardware.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=2818/category_id=1067/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd2818.htm

http://www.firebirdcentral.com/FIREBIRD_CUSTOM_PARTS_s/67.htm

Thanks for any help!

[killer69]

Here is what I found.
http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=133/category_id=237/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd133.htm


http://www.speedtechperformance.com/index.cfm/page/ptype=product/product_id=170/category_id=237/home_id=-1/mode=prod/prd170.htm

In case your looking at all the options

[BMR Sales]

I intend to upgrade the brakes to a set of Wilwoods or similar and run the usual rim & tire upgrades.

I have a budget of around $5,000 for reworking the suspension.



Hey Gordon.... We recently became a Wilwood dealer and we can stay under the 5K budget for the entire suspension for a 10 or 12 bolt differential. I will be leaving for the Columbus Goodguys show tomorrow and heading from there to the Car Craft show in MN the next week.

How soon are you planning to install the suspension?

[gordonr1973]

I'm not in a rush, but I like to decide fairly soon which way I'm going so I can plan to go to Montana to pick it up and bring it back over the border.

Saves a ton on shipping and brokerage fees.

[marolf101x]

If you are looking at all the options you might as well look at one with all new control arms, a 4 link and a 1,000,0001 mile warranty on the coil overs!
http://www.ridetech.com/store/1967-1969-chevy-camaro-complete-coil-over-system.html

[gordonr1973]

Just to add some extra info for folks, I'm planning to mini tub the car and put in a 455. I might build up the motor a bit so it would be kicking out a lot of torque and any suspension upgrade would need to be able to help out with the frame twist / car hop.

[gordonr1973]

Some good write ups here on the differences, just adding to my research.

Would really prefer some first hand advise though:

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0604_rear_suspension_guide/

[killer69]

just to respond to this particular part of the article referenced above;

One other concept seen when discussing torque-arm rear suspensions is "decoupling." When a torque arm is directly connected to the chassis, the rear end can physically be lifted off the ground under hard deceleration. This is referred to as "brake hop" and is something you want to avoid. By decoupling the torque arm from the chassis, you avoid the braking torque being transferred through the torque arm. This is accomplished by only letting the torque arm contact the chassis under acceleration and by allowing the other links in the system to absorb the braking torque. In this way the acceleration and braking functions are separated and each can be optimized individually

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0604_rear_suspension_guide/viewall.html#ixzz2YlATFBcs

In all our experience there is NO, ZERO Brake hop. and actually in My Nova we have dialed in as much rear brake as possible and the braking is Exceptional.

[Rod]

Heidt vs BMR vs Hotchkis..... what is the real question?

[gordonr1973]

Another comparison....any input on these?

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/1005phr_camaro_nova_suspension_guide/viewall.html

[Rod]

Another comparison....any input on these?


lots of info on all these but what do you want? leaf spring, four link, torque arm, truck arms and what are you going to do with the car

[gordonr1973]

Well that's the thing, the car started out as an inline 6, which did not survive the previous owner so I can kind of do whatever I'd like.

My last build was doing an 6.0 LS build-up & swap into an 87 chev SWB truck. I like to mix new with old elements.

This time I'm keeping a Pontiac motor but want to improve the handling, tires and will add an overdrive trans.

So on this car I want something that would be, in no particular order:

1. comfortable to drive on the street....driving distances up to 500 miles a couple times a summer (from my house to visit my family).

2. respectable to take to a cruise or a S&S

3. something I can beat on from time to time through the odd autocross

Mostly, something that I know is 100% dependable once its set up correctly and will preform as-advertised.

[Rod]

1. comfortable to drive on the street....driving distances up to 500 miles a couple times a summer (from my house to visit my family).


1. both a leaf spring and coilover setup will do this well on the leaf spring setup you need a quality adjustable shock, and on the coilover setup it relies on that coil and I would use the very best (hyperco) on both of these I wouldn't cheap out




2. respectable to take to a cruise or a S&S


2. a coilover setup is cooler to look at




3. something I can beat on from time to time through the odd autocross



coilover and leaf can both be beat on and very VERY hard, key on a leaf spring setup is the adjustable shocks and the leafs need a spherical front bearing and the rear shackle needs to be stiff (like the global west shackle setup) on a coilover setup its all about the shock settings and coil rates, theres no magic formula it takes tuning




Mostly, something that I know is 100% dependable once its set up correctly and will preform as-advertised.


I would use a full package then, if its Hotchkis then is the FULL TVS kit with everything, if its BMR then is FULL Bmr everything if its Ridetech then is FULL ridetech with everything, and why do I say that.... because I was running a Full Hotchkis TVS before and it was fast and won races, now Im running a full Ridetech and its fast and winning I have used mixes of companies before and it work but it took a lot work and tuning and driving the car to the ragged edge to get fair results, I not saying you cant mix it up even now I have a GREAT mix, it just easier if you use a companies complete build and they can advise on the base settings and tuning


just my opinions

[badazz81z28]

1. both a leaf spring and coilover setup will do this well on the leaf spring setup you need a quality adjustable shock, and on the coilover setup it relies on that coil and I would use the very best (hyperco) on both of these I wouldn't cheap out



2. a coilover setup is cooler to look at



coilover and leaf can both be beat on and very VERY hard, key on a leaf spring setup is the adjustable shocks and the leafs need a spherical front bearing and the rear shackle needs to be stiff (like the global west shackle setup) on a coilover setup its all about the shock settings and coil rates, theres no magic formula it takes tuning



I would use a full package then, if its Hotchkis then is the FULL TVS kit with everything, if its BMR then is FULL Bmr everything if its Ridetech then is FULL ridetech with everything, and why do I say that.... because I was running a Full Hotchkis TVS before and it was fast and won races, now Im running a full Ridetech and its fast and winning I have used mixes of companies before and it work but it took a lot work and tuning and driving the car to the ragged edge to get fair results, I not saying you cant mix it up even now I have a GREAT mix, it just easier if you use a companies complete build and they can advise on the base settings and tuning


just my opinions


Very good advice....What I will say NOT to do is stray away from these brand and go with garbage like PTFB (Protouring-F-Body) Parts. You might as well buy out of the JC whitney catalog.

I have a full Hotchkis suspension and it drives great and I didnt have to deal with poor workmanship or stripping out ball joint studs.

[boodlefoof]

Not sure which Heidt's kit you're considering, but the universal fit kit doesn't work well with a Poncho oil pan.

[TheBandit]

One other concept seen when discussing torque-arm rear suspensions is "decoupling." When a torque arm is directly connected to the chassis, the rear end can physically be lifted off the ground under hard deceleration. This is referred to as "brake hop" and is something you want to avoid. By decoupling the torque arm from the chassis, you avoid the braking torque being transferred through the torque arm. This is accomplished by only letting the torque arm contact the chassis under acceleration and by allowing the other links in the system to absorb the braking torque. In this way the acceleration and braking functions are separated and each can be optimized individually

Read more: http://www.popularhotrodding.com/tech/0604_rear_suspension_guide/viewall.html#ixzz2YlATFBcs

In all our experience there is NO, ZERO Brake hop. and actually in My Nova we have dialed in as much rear brake as possible and the braking is Exceptional.

So to necropost, but I have been researching torque arms and I am having a hard time understanding the above "decoupling" where the arm only contacts the chassis under acceleration and not braking. It's not clear to me how/if any of the torque arms on the market do this - from what I can see all of them would allow bi-directional torque transfer to lift or pull down at the front slider/pivot mount. Unfortunately the PHR article link isn't working for me. Can you explain what was meant by this or how it was accomplished?

[dontlifttoshift]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.unbalancedengineering.com%2F Product_Development%2FDevelopment%2520of%2520the%2 520Unbalanced%2520Engineering%2520Decoupled%2520To rque%2520Arm.pdf&psig=AOvVaw1jMsL8PByQZLFHxOYcrrv9&ust=1647531239353000&source=images&cd=vfe&ved=2ahUKEwjO-r6j-sr2AhWFRc0KHdIuB_wQr4kDegUIARCoAg

This should cover it.

[TheBandit]

Thank you for pointing me there Donny! The photos on this page gave a good explanation of the concept: https://www.unbalancedengineering.com/Camaro/TA/ I'll stop necroposting here now.