Upgrade Current setup or go LS

[pro86tourn]

Hey guys i have been tossing this idea around for a while and i just cant seem to pull the trigger either way and my car is suffering by sitting in the garage the last two seasons.

I built a chevy 327 (love those engines) i scrapped the top end and thinking about upgrading it full roller aluminum heads ect. that will cost me around $3500 bucks.

OR

Should i scrap that engine completely and go LS...


cost is my #1 concern at the moment so id like to avoid headaches and tons of mods. I also would like to keep my t5 if possible as money is tight to jump to a t56 currently

[XLexusTech]

if cost is your #1 concern you should be able to rebuild a 327 for 1-2 K. If your spenfin more then that move to an LS

[pro86tourn]

Well I would like to spend as little as possible at this time to get the car going and enjoy it. the 327 is fresh and completely built and balanced ground up, i would just be converting it to full roller and nice heads and all that jazz. to do that will probably cost around 3500 bucks. theres no way you can buy all top end roller cam, heads, lifters, carb, intake ect.. for 1-2k

As far as switching to LS i would have to get a used probably very high milage engine that would potentially make much less power, and im not sure about how difficult all the wiring and stuff that goes along with the swap and other modifications.

Im conflicted s to just waiting another season of not driving the car and saving for a LS tear it down and freshen it up and do it all then.

that being said i am comfortable with re and reing engines and trans swaps. but the LS kind of scares me!

Im sorry for rambling i just find myself so torn and since i got the 327 ive put maybe 50 km on it. Im getting quite frustrated not enjoying the my car!

[k9kevin81]

Save a bit and go LS all the way. My 4500.00 simple roller has turned into a 8k supercharged SBC. You can find a NICE LS for a few grand more than you have budgeted. Then you have to think of the tranny, headers, electronics, cross member etc. I would save and get the LS, then buy your swap parts as money becomes available. I know this is the way I would have went looking back. If it runs now enjoy it and drive it. Just my .02 good luck!

[Corey R.]

Save a bit and go LS all the way. My 4500.00 simple roller has turned into a 8k supercharged SBC. You can find a NICE LS for a few grand more than you have budgeted. Then you have to think of the tranny, headers, electronics, cross member etc. I would save and get the LS, then buy your swap parts as money becomes available. I know this is the way I would have went looking back. If it runs now enjoy it and drive it. Just my .02 good luck!

Problem is "those other parts" add up fast.

Some question I ask are how much do you drive the car, and how much of the work are you going to do yourself? I am in your same boat. I just blew my 327 up, and I am not going to even bother spending the money to repair it. I considered going LS, but the out the door costs and larger project time added up to way more than I wanted to spend. I don't feel like completing that swap myself, and a local shop in Tampa quoted me $14,000 for a junkyard 5.3/T56 combo. That is a lot of time and money for a car I only drive the car ~500 miles a year.

As of now I am looking to just replace it with a zz383 425 HP GMPP engine.

[Ron Sutton]

As you can tell, there are a lot of LS supporters here, because it is a great engine package. It is the best modern day engine.

Of course, to fully make the swap ... with all the parts changes outside the engine ... and end up with a new or fresh LS making 400 hp is going to cost more than $3500, unless you find a steal on an unfinished project.

You can put a new roller cam & heads on your engine for under $3500, make 400 hp & be driving it. For that matter, isn't your current 327 complete & running? You could be driving it now ... so why aren't you?

[Thephranc]

Do the top end and plop a new fangled EFI unit from MSD, FAST, E-brock, etc.

[camaroinct]

I did the same upgrade on my 350 LT1, $3500 is about right, you can easily get over 500hp on that 327, your compression ratio will play a big part with power and cam selection. I don't know what your hp number is or your tuning skills, but the more power you make the more attention the engine will need. You can be back on the road fast with that upgrade! Sell the engine / parts later when you look to move to another combo. Get out and enjoy your car. If you go with the upgrade i would be interested in what you select for parts.

[pro86tourn]

Thanks so much for the reply's guys! The car is not currently running and has been apart for .. this will be the 2nd season. I sold the top end to fund the new parts and just havent been able to decide since!

Here is my parts list so far. I know MANY of you are much more experienced then me, i am 24 i have no issues swapping engines and assembling them, but picking parts im not the best at!

Edelbrock e-tec Heads -60975
Edelbrock Hydro Cam kit -22015
Comp ultra gold roller rockers 1.5- 249-19001-16
Edelbrock RPM air gap- 350-7516
msd 6al- 121-6425 (not sure hot to connect this to my existing HEI MSD distributor)
holly ultra double pumper 650- 510-0-76650B
edelbrock fuel pump- 1721
ARP- 070-534-9701
moroso oil pan- 20170
fel pro- 375-2802
edelbrock intake gasket - 7235

Sorry for the long post. any advice would be great

[Ron Sutton]

The heads & cam don't compliment each other. The cam has lift of .539" / .548" and the flow of the heads start to nose over & experience diminishing returns above .480" lift.

What are your goals for ...
HP?
Torque?
Optimum power band rpm range?

[pro86tourn]

would i be better off with the bigger 60989 head?

as for HP obviously as much as possible but my goal is 400+, as far as rpm range, the car will be a street car so 0-6500 will be optimal.

[Ron Sutton]

would i be better off with the bigger 60989 head?

as for HP obviously as much as possible but my goal is 400+, as far as rpm range, the car will be a street car so 0-6500 will be optimal.

Your goals need to be a little more clear ... and the combination more realistic. You can't build the most power from 327 cubic inches & ask it to run good from idle up. Those goals conflict. All engine, suspension, car, (life) combinations are a compromise.

Let me ask it this way ... which of the following scenarios best fits your wishes?

a. 300Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from idle to 4500 rpm. Peak torque around 2500 rpm.
b. 325Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3000 rpm.
c. 350Hp / 340# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3500 rpm.
d. 385Hp / 350# Torque with optimum operating range from 2500 to 6000 rpm. Peak torque around 4000 rpm.
e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.
f. 740Hp / 500# torque with optimum operating range from 6000 to 8500 rpm. Peak torque around 7000 rpm.

* All of these combinations will rev higher but best power is in the range outlined.
** As you move up in power combo & operating range, low rpm torque & fuel efficiency reduce.

The key here is deciding what best fits your personal wants & needs. Let me know. I'm glad to help you work out a good combo.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Thanks Ron,

I would say the most reasonable goals with my budget in mind would put me around this power/rpm range.

e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.

Using the above parts list mentioned, do you suggest making any amends to reach this goal?

Thanks again.

[Ron Sutton]

Yes, you'll need different cylinder heads ... as the port runner & valve size in the Edelbrock e-tec Heads #60975 ... are way too small for your goals & the cam selected.

I'm hesitant to make recommendations utilizing the Edelbrock parts, because I am less familiar with them. All of their stuff is good & they are a super company. I have some experience with their heads & no experience with their cams. I have tons more experience with heads from Dart, Brodix, RHS, AFR & top head porters. I have a lot of experience with most cam companies over the last 3 decades, but after testing, testing & testing a gazillion different cams in hundreds of engine combinations, we always end up making the best power under the curve with Comp Cams. Even when another brand of cam has the exact same specs, the lobe profiles offered by Comp Cams tend to build more power & are easier on the valvetrain. That is our experience. Ask 10 other engine builders & you'll get 14 & 1/2 different viewpoints.

The Edelbrock cam you mentioned, specs out at 234° / 238° duration @ .050" ... .539" / .548" lift ... 112° Lobe Separation & 107° Intake Centerline. This is in the ballpark camwise. Comp Cams ofers the XR288HR (#12-433-8) that specs out at 236° / 242° @ .050" ... .520" / .540" ... 110° Lobe Separation & 106° Intake Centerline.

In my experience, I prefer the larger duration split of the Comp Cam with 6° more exhaust duration than the Edelbrock cam with 4° more exhaust duration, to help with higher rpm exhaust scavenging without hurting low-end & mid-range power. The smaller 110° Lobe Separation of the Comp Cam (versus 112° on the Edelbrock) increases maximum torque & moves the torque peak to lower, more usable RPM. The better cam lobe ramp profiles are not easily measured, let alone discussed, but all of our testing shows the Comp Cam lobe ramp profiles fill the cylinder quicker & more fully.

Edelbrock heads are designed for lower rpm ranges, perfoming excellent in hot rods & street cruisers. Even when offered in bigger runner sizes, the flow technology is not there to produce optimum power.

Examples:
Edelbrock E-Tec 170 Flows 232cfm at .500" lift ... and only 238cfm at .600" ... which indicates air flow stall in this lift range.
* The original head you were planning on

Edelbrock E-Tec 200 Flows 252cfm at .500" lift ... and only 259cfm at .600" ... which indicates air flow stall in this lift range.
*The runner is much bigger at 200cc in volume, but still doesn't like cam lifts much over .500"

Dart Pro1 180 Flows 257cfm at .500" lift ... and 266cfm at .600".
* This is more airflow than the Edelbrock 200cc runner head ... in a 180cc runner head ... building WAY more velocity, torque & total power across the rpm range.

Dart Pro1 200 Flows 264cfm at .500" lift ... and 272cfm at .600".
* This is more airflow than the Edelbrock ... comparing both with the same size 200cc runner head ... building more velocity, torque & total power across the rpm range.

Would you like me to pull together a suggested package with Dart, Comp Cam & Edelbrock parts, or are you going the Edelbrock route? I'm glad to help either way.


Ron Sutton

[pro86tourn]

Ron, Thank you so much for your wealth of knowledge I am extremely grateful.

I am by no means bias to use the edelbrock route. I selected that cam kit, as it comes with the correct size pushrods needed and as far as my abilities go for selecting parts it makes my life much easier.

I would love to hear a suggested package that includes Dart, comp and edelbrock parts. or if possible a comparison or the two setups (est HP & TQ wise) , this could prove very beneficial for others that my come across this thread!

I am very excited to putting together a final parts list and seeing what kinda juice can be had out of this little 327!

Also if it helps the car is a 5 speed, not automatic. and eventually will be t-56.

Thanks again for the assistance

[Ron Sutton]

You're welcome, I have a few questions that you'll need to get answers to before you bolt stuff on.

Are the pistons flat top or dome?
* If dome, do you (or your original engine builder) know the piston part # or cc of the dome itself?
* If flat top, is there 1 set of "eyebrows" for the valve reliefs or two sets?

*Regardless, at TDC, how much clearance from the piston to the deck ... exact ... in thousandths?

[Ron Sutton]

Okie Dokie … here are two combinations.

Both are based on:
327 bored .030” to 331 CID
10-1 compression with flat top pistons
Quality internals

Heads for both combinations:
Dart Pro1 200 Aluminum Heads - 64cc +/- (to start)
2.02 Intake & 1.60 Exhaust valves

Cometic Head gasket 4.060”’ x .030” (6cc)
If piston has .030 clearance to deck, that’s 7.3cc (adjust accordingly)
If pistons have 1 “eyebrow” (reliefs for 2 valves) that’s around 4cc

You need 75.5cc total, counting the chamber, gasket & piston-to-deck-clearance. So you will need to remove about 6cc from the head chambers, with a modest milling, before you install them.

Roller Rockers: 1.5 Ratio – Recommend Comp Cams Ultra-Pro Magnum or Crower Stainless Steel rockers.

--------------------------------------------------

Combination #1 – Awesome Street Package
422HP @ 6500 RPM
385# Torque @ 4500 RPM

Cam: Comp Cams XR288HR (Hydraulic Roller)
Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer Airgap
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-5/8” stepping up to 1-3/4” tube diameter & 32-34” length

--------------------------------------------------

Combination #2 – Awesome Track Package
452HP @ 6500 RPM
395# Torque @ 5000 RPM

Cam: Comp Cams XR294HR (Hydraulic Roller)
Intake: Edelbrock Victor Jr.
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-3/4” stepping up to 1-7/8” tube diameter & 32-34” length

--------------------------------------------------

Here is a computer generated dyno sheet of the two combinations compared to each other. The power curve tells an engine’s personality & the differences show here on each side of 4500 rpm.



The Combination #1 will make a better Street Package, building impressive torque … especially for a short stroke 327 … from 2000 to 4500 rpm where you’ll spend most of your time on the street.

The Combination #2 will make a better Track Package, reducing low end torque some to aid traction on corner exits & building more power from 4500 to 6500 where you’ll spend most of your time on the track.

But neither is far from the other. These two packages are close & the torque curve will be real driver friendly in either one. You’re just deciding where you want to give some & gain some.



If anyone has any questions, feel free to chime in on this thread.

Ron Sutton

[silvermonte]

Thank you for the info Ron. Im not even building an engine at the moment and this was a fun read, taking the time to help like this is great thing you are doing. I wish when i had picked out parts for my motor a year ago Id had something like this and I would of sleep better while i made my choices and not worrying if they are mis matched or not.

And to the OP, stick with your SBC it would be much cheaper to get it running then doing the swap to LS by the time you add in the fuel tank stuff and the motor mounts and wires and all that jazz.

[Todd in Vancouver]

Wow lots of great info from Ron and having just gone through that scenario I can appreciate what you are going through. I can honestly tell you that from what I ended up spending on my SBC I wish I had gone LS. BUT, my car is all apart so I have time and I think Ron has steered you in the right direction so you can drive the car NOW. My plan is to build the LS engine I want and change it up after I've got the car on the road and enjoy it for a while.

In my opinion, if you want to play in the 500HP range you need all the other goodies that will make it reliable. Anyone can make big HP for a couple runs so be realistic on your HP and make the car reliable so you can get in it and drive it. You can build the LS later and change it up because its not just the LS you need, think headers, wiring, clutch, air intake, accessory-driveS, ECM, etc.etc.etc.

Have a look at my build and you can see what I've built that makes a reliable 500hp 'ish range SBC you can enjoy.

Good Luck

[Ron Sutton]

I probably should reiterate, if he was building a car from scratch, or had no engine at all, or had the budget to properly do an LS install, I would be recommending an LS engine.

From his post, his goals were to get his car back running, using his almost new 327 that needs a top end & cam ... for a budget of $3500. As all the experienced guys know, if he bought a used LS engine to swap ... there is a LOT more work & money to actually make it running ... bellhousing, flywheel, clutch, exhaust, wiring, plumbing, tank, etc.

So for around $3500, he can have 400+ HP, on his almost new engine & be out driving it. I'm actually a little jealous.