Upgrade Current setup or go LS

[pro86tourn]

Thanks for the list ! I added it all up using jegs/summit for pricing looks to be $4,090.95 - oil, plugs, belts, machining, push rods, tax, ect.. pricy little 327!

The distributor i have currently is the 8362 (street fire) would buying the MSD ignition box be worth the cost? and will it work with that dizzy.



As far as the cam goes few questions..requires thrust button and wear plate. Are they included in the CL kit.

I think we have about covered all the angles. If i am missing anything, or you know of cheaper places to source parts anyone feel free to chime in!

so now the question is. all said and done to get this baby running will probably push $5k. is it worth it in your opinion Ron, or should i go another route? bang for your buck i dont want to cheap out i want to get good quality parts and i think this list demonstrates that but also cost is always in everyones mind! maybe crate is the better option?

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks for the list ! I added it all up using jegs/summit for pricing looks to be $4,090.95 - oil, plugs, belts, machining, push rods, tax, ect.. pricy little 327!

I think it can be done for a little less. Do me a favor, repost your parts list, with prices, and let me see if I can save you some money.


The distributor i have currently is the 8362 (street fire) would buying the MSD ignition box be worth the cost?
Will it make a tick more power? Yes. It is worth it? That's subjective. We don't run them on our 600hp/7200 rpm NASCAR Modified engines. It's not because we don't believe they make more power ... they do ... but MSD amplifier boxes have a high rate of failure, so we don't run them. So, if I were you, I'd pass for now.


and will it work with that dizzy.
Yes. But read above.


As far as the cam goes few questions..requires thrust button and wear plate. Are they included in the CL kit.
You need a "cam button" (thrust button) Comp Cams #200.
The Cloyes timing chain set use a torrington bearing instead of a wear plate & it is included.


I think we have about covered all the angles. If i am missing anything, or you know of cheaper places to source parts anyone feel free to chime in!
Repost your parts list, with prices, and let me see if I can save you some money.


so now the question is. all said and done to get this baby running will probably push $5k.
How did $4,090.95 become $5k?

is it worth it in your opinion Ron, or should i go another route? bang for your buck i dont want to cheap out i want to get good quality parts and i think this list demonstrates that but also cost is always in everyones mind! maybe crate is the better option?

If you can get the package for $3500-$4000, I'd stay this route. If it was truly $5000++, I'd be considering a used LS.

Let me see if I can save you a few bucks on parts first.

[pro86tourn]

Dart Pro1 200 64cc #12321112- $802.14 x 2
Comp Cam & Lifter kit #CL12-433-8 - $714.95
Comp Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers #1604-16 - $319.95
Cloyes Timing Chain #9-3500TX9 - $77.95
Edelbrock RPM air gap #7501 - $234.95
Holley Ultra DP 750(kit) #0-76751BKK - $541.99
Holley fuel pump #12-327-13 - $94.95
Moroso Oil Pan #20170 - $99.99
ARP (is this full kit including head bolts?) #534-9701 - $102.99
Intake Gasket #1205 - $14.99
Valve Cover gasket (do you prefer the rubber over cork?) - $11.99
Oil Pan gasket #375-1803 - $12.99
Completion Gaskets #2702 - $19.99

TOTAL - MSD box = $3,851.96

I said closer to 5k because i included the MSD box, then factor in tax, shipping, machine costs of the heads, oil, plugs ect ect ect...

if theres anything im missing. and if anyone else has an opinion or thinks im crazy please chime in haha.

thanks again Ron i cant thank you enough

[Ron Sutton]

Dart Pro1 200 64cc #12321112- $802.14 x 2 Actual part# is 11321112P
Comp Cam & Lifter kit #CL12-433-8 - $714.95
Comp Ultra Pro Magnum Rockers #1604-16 - $319.95
Cloyes Timing Chain #9-3500TX9 - $77.95
Edelbrock RPM air gap #7501 - $234.95
Holley Ultra DP 750(kit) #0-76751BKK - $541.99 I recommend #0-76750BK with the electric choke
Holley fuel pump #12-327-13 - $94.95
Moroso Oil Pan #20170 - $99.99
ARP (is this full kit including head bolts?) #534-9701 - $102.99
Intake Gasket #1205 - $14.99
Valve Cover gasket (do you prefer the rubber over cork?) - $11.99 Yes, because you'll R&R them several times at first.
Oil Pan gasket #375-1803 - $12.99
Completion Gaskets #2702 - $19.99

TOTAL - MSD box = $3,851.96

I said closer to 5k because i included the MSD box, then factor in tax, shipping, machine costs of the heads, oil, plugs ect ect ect...

if theres anything im missing. and if anyone else has an opinion or thinks im crazy please chime in haha.

thanks again Ron i cant thank you enough[/QUOTE]

That all looks about right.

[Mr_Roboto]

As mentioned, the neoprene VC gaskets are awesome and definitely worth the few extra bucks. Second, I'd keep an eye out for the intake. I've seen em come up for 100-150 on Chicago Craigslist pretty often. You may be able to shave $100 or so there.

This is a cool build, you should dyno it when done and see how close it comes out. I'd probably consider adding a tuning kit for the carb in with your costs too. Even though carbs tend to work well out of the box, I'd think you could probably find some power in tweaking it. It's a Holley so 50-100 bucks should be able to get you one.

[Scott Parkhurst]

The 500 hp number seems to be the scary/expensive point, but we have to remember we're talking about a N/A 327 here!

With a package similar to Ron's suggested "#1 Street" setup, I made 545hp with my SBC. But...it's a 383! Cubes are free horsepower, and smaller engines have to work harder to make the same power. My 383 also made 500 ft-lbs, which makes it a great street engine ahead of a stickshift trans.

Ron's advice is all solid!

[cactuss4]

Your goals need to be a little more clear ... and the combination more realistic. You can't build the most power from 327 cubic inches & ask it to run good from idle up. Those goals conflict. All engine, suspension, car, (life) combinations are a compromise.

Let me ask it this way ... which of the following scenarios best fits your wishes?

a. 300Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from idle to 4500 rpm. Peak torque around 2500 rpm.
b. 325Hp / 325# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3000 rpm.
c. 350Hp / 340# Torque with optimum operating range from 2200 to 5500 rpm. Peak torque around 3500 rpm.
d. 385Hp / 350# Torque with optimum operating range from 2500 to 6000 rpm. Peak torque around 4000 rpm.
e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.
f. 740Hp / 500# torque with optimum operating range from 6000 to 8500 rpm. Peak torque around 7000 rpm.

* All of these combinations will rev higher but best power is in the range outlined.
** As you move up in power combo & operating range, low rpm torque & fuel efficiency reduce.

The key here is deciding what best fits your personal wants & needs. Let me know. I'm glad to help you work out a good combo.


Ron Sutton

F is with Turbo I imagine?!: ) hahahaha I pick F, but wait, let's add a supercharger so that we can get torque off the line as well, so do a tri-charger, supercharger plus twin turbo's!! comp ratio under 9:1, run on pump, ya I like it.

tory

[Ron Sutton]

The 500 hp number seems to be the scary/expensive point, but we have to remember we're talking about a N/A 327 here!

With a package similar to Ron's suggested "#1 Street" setup, I made 545hp with my SBC. But...it's a 383! Cubes are free horsepower, and smaller engines have to work harder to make the same power. My 383 also made 500 ft-lbs, which makes it a great street engine ahead of a stickshift trans.

Ron's advice is all solid!

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the good words.

Would you mind sharing with us what is similar & different about your sweet 383" ... besides the stroke?

[Ron Sutton]

F is with Turbo I imagine?!: ) hahahaha I pick F, but wait, let's add a supercharger so that we can get torque off the line as well, so do a tri-charger, supercharger plus twin turbo's!! comp ratio under 9:1, run on pump, ya I like it.

tory

Hey Tory,

"F" is a high port engine like we'd build for oval or road course racing ... if 327" was our cubic inch limit.

But I threw it in the options just for spice.

[Scott Parkhurst]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for the good words.

Would you mind sharing with us what is similar & different about your sweet 383" ... besides the stroke?

Sure thing!

Intake: Edelbrock RPM Performer Airgap
Carb: Holley 750cfm Carb
Headers: 1-5/8” stepping up to 1-3/4” tube diameter & 32-34” length


I run AFR 210 heads with CNC finishing. They are too much for a 327 but just fine on a 383. The Air Gap is the finest dual-plane intake I've ever worked with, and makes power all the way to 6500 (my redline) and gives up nothing to a single plane with the nitrous plate setup I have (Wilson Pro Flow). It's civilized enough to maintain 1500 rpm in overdrive, helping to deliver more than 20 mpg on the freeway.

My 750cfm Holley is one of their new "Ultra" versions.

My headers are Doug's Tri-Ys - still one of the best all-around designs out there...and lots of ground clearance too.

I don't use hydraulic rollers on performance builds- the latest solid roller lifter designs are plenty durable for street use. I like the extra power and don't mind the occasional maintenance.

I'd aim for a bit higher redline on a short stroke 327....closer to 7500. That would require a nice valvetrain...I'd suggest one of the good bolt-on shaft rocker setups out there. I run Crane's version and it's great.

[Ron Sutton]

Thanks for the info. Take care.

.

[uxojerry]

You may be able to find various used top ends in the classified section of racing junk and yellow bullet at a steep discount. I would plan on buying heads a little big for a 327 but acceptable on a 377/383. That way your top end allows room to grow. A year down the road you would have the ability to redo the bottom end to 377/383 and have all the hp you may want. If the Dart heads in your plan have enough meat in them, they can be ported later for a 377/383. If you eventually did the 383 with good quality parts, the next step would be to add an after market block with larger bores and go to a 421. Once you get to 421, then it's time to leave 23 degree heads behind.

Contrary to popular belief the SBC is not dead. Im redoing my SBC 427 top end for 700hp, and room to grow to 440ci. There are SBC 421 pump gas crate motors rated at 775hp, and about the same price as a high end, big cube LSX. For SBC's, Nascar tech feeds drag racing tech, which feeds hot rod tech.

These engines are not superior to an LS motor. I dont want to offend anyone. For high tech power delivery, an LS is superior. The snarl of a built SBC, or the roar of a BBC are still relevant, lol.

[Corey R.]

Hi Ron -

I have re-read this thread a few times now. You have offered solid advice. I also have a 327 that is making a loud ticking noise, and if it is feasible, I would like to use this part combination. I Differ from Pro86, since I may need more engine work. I have not yet torn into the engine to see what exactly is wrong. I'll need to get a good idea on how much damage the engine has, and whether it is worth saving or scraping completely. If it is ok with you, I will revisit this thread to ask for advice from you.

Here is my car. My mother bought it brand new in the summer 1969.

[Ron Sutton]

Hi Ron -

I have re-read this thread a few times now. You have offered solid advice. I also have a 327 that is making a loud ticking noise, and if it is feasible, I would like to use this part combination. I Differ from Pro86, since I may need more engine work. I have not yet torn into the engine to see what exactly is wrong. I'll need to get a good idea on how much damage the engine has, and whether it is worth saving or scraping completely. If it is ok with you, I will revisit this thread to ask for advice from you.

Here is my car. My mother bought it brand new in the summer 1969.

Man, that is a sweet car.

I'd be happy to offer advice. Go ahead & list specs on the engine now ... plus details on car, trans, rear gear ... and how you plan to use it. OK?

.

[Corey R.]

You got it! Give me a little time to type up something coherent.

[Corey R.]

Hi Ron -

I am mulling my options on which direction to take the car. The car is equipped with a stock 1967 327 out of an impala, M20 and a 3.73 rear. The car currently has a Edelbrock Performer intake and 1.94 camel hump heads. I do not know what size journals the crank has.

Some of the ideas in my head are:

- Rebuild the 327 into a nice 331 with newer heads like the Dart Pro1 heads you mentioned(dependent on how much internal damage there is)
- Purchase a crate engine. Something from the zz4 family? Either a long block, or a short block and use the Dart heads.
- LS/T56 conversion combo.

The car is mainly a street cruiser, and doesn't see any track time. If I had to go with one of your options from your earlier post, I would select:

e. 440Hp / 360# Torque with optimum operating range from 3000 to 6500 rpm. Peak torque around 4500 rpm.

[chevnut55]

Go with the 327, I had the same hard decision on my 69 Camaro , I decided to go with the ls1 .
yes the ls1 can make more power easy, its lighter and great fuel milage.
But the money I spent on the swap could have went to a gas fund, it took 2 years non stop instead of 2 weeks, it still does not run wright and does not look anywhere as good as my old 327 did..it lost some of the muscle car look and feel.
If I did not have so much into it and so many things changed in the swap..headers, mounts, rad, tank, holes for wires everywhere, computers..etc and etc, I would order a new crate 327 and a o/d trans.
Also my budget was suppose to be $5k for a new drivetrain and the sbc would have met the swap cost me 3 times that and Im still throwing money at tuners.
either way its a great car and you can loose.

[Corey R.]

Thanks for the advice, I will definitely take that into consideration. Along with the info Ron supplies, I think I should also get a hold of engine software to help with a design if I decide to rebuild the 327. Although a rebuild might be a hard sell when I can pick up a GMPP zz4 350 short block for $2400 and its ready to go.

[chevnut55]

That's what I had witten down to order and a new 700r4 along with a fast or holly efi system. never mind the cost I could have saved but the stress from problems alone I could have lived another 10 years.

[Ron Sutton]

Chevnut55 gave a great example of a bad engine swap experience. He isn't the only one, as several guys have made LS swaps .... not got the programming right ... and were very frustrated. Here is a recent example.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, so I take a broader view. I'll outline my thoughts of pros & cons and maybe that clarifies things better & helps you make your decision that fits your situation best.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The SBC is older technology. The 23° valve angle & port shape haven't changed much since 1955 ... almost 60 years. The heads flow less air than modern designs because the port shape was designed for packaging, not power. The low intake port goes up over a hump, then makes a sharp turn down into the valve. We can make them flow a little more without enlarging the port ... but to make them flow significantly better, we have to run bigger ports. (This is true of all heads) That's where you see "runner sizes" in CC's come into play ... stock in the 135-160cc range ... with larger ports measuring from 180-290cc in volume.

Cylinder port basics:
When you make any port flow more ... by changing it's shape, angle, contours, surface, etc ... without increasing the port cross section area (height and/or width) ... you are increasing velocity. When you make any port flow more ... by increasing it's cross section area (height and/or width of the port) ... you are reducing velocity. When we build more power in the SBC platform, it's harder to achieve the same levels of fuel efficiency as the LS partly because of this.

Yes, for big bucks you can buy aftermarket race only heads & intake with large, raised ports & valve angles from 9° to 18° to achieve "some" of what is built into the LS. Most of these head & intake combos start around $5000 & go up. Without going to aftermarket high port/low valve angle race heads, you can still build great power in a standard SBC platform. Racers & Hot Rodders have been doing so for ... well .. almost 60 years.

The SBC is the best supported engine platform of all time, with a gazillion fully developed parts from manufacturers. Parts are inexpensive, plentiful & 99% of engine shops know how to build them. Factory aluminum blocks are not plentiful, so aftermarket versions are very expensive. Factory iron blocks are good for 400hp in thin cast versions ... 600hp in thick cast versions. Aftermarket iron blocks to handle 700-1000+hp are available from from Dart, RHS & World products

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The LS is modern technology. The cylinder head port, valve angle & chamber design are right out of modern race technology. The heads flow more air not because the port is bigger ... which would lose some velocity if it was ... but because the port is raised significantly enough to have a straighter entry to the back side of the valve. The valve train design, internal water cooling, firing order & block design are all improved over the older SBC design. Basically, every solution that racers & engineers came up with over the years racing the SBC went into the design of the LS.

This is part of why these engines make more power ... easily ... and still achieve good fuel mileage. The production LS aluminum block is very durable well into the 600+ hp range. The iron block can handle more & the LSX & RHS iron blocks are solid platforms to build 800-1200hp.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As with any engine platform, the fuel & timing curves are key to optimizing power & fuel efficiency. Modern technology has given us options & improvements for how we achieve this.

Obviously SBC's were designed with a distributor to "distribute" the spark. The challenge with weights & springs ... is the timing curve is linear ... and that's not optimum for power or fuel efficiency. We can tune on the advance curve with weights & springs to find the best compromise ... add on electronic band aids ... replace it with an electronic controlled advance unit ... or change it out altogether to a fully computerized ignition, which can be tuned to exactly what the engine needs for optimum power & fuel efficiency. As we know LS engines start with a fully computerized ignition & can't go backwards. Why would you want to?

Carb or EFI ... are options with either engine platform. Some guys think carburetors are complicated. Some guys think EFI is complicated. Some of us are more familiar ... and therefore more comfortable with one or the other. In my early days as a young racer, when I found the key to power was carb & ignition tuning, I became a student of both until I mastered them. I can tune a carb as well as anyone. When I first entered a series running mechanical fuel injection, I had a steep learning curve, but got it mastered with time, learning, testing, etc.

With carbs & mechanical fuel injection, they naturally want to be linear, which is not optimum. So we're tuning & tweaking them in various ways to adjust the fuel curve "towards" optimum ... in sections of the rpm range & trying to best deal with changes in throttle position. But "close" & "good compromise" is about all these are capable of. With EFI ... if we have the correct flowing nozzles ... we can simply program any fuel curve we want. I mean ANY. We can make the A/F ratio exactly what the engine needs to be optimum at every rpm point & every condition.

With a carburetor or mechanical fuel injection, we can tune either to make optimum power at a specific rpm ... equal to what is achievable with Electronic Fuel Injection. EFI doesn't make more peak power. But these mechanical fuel mixers are not capable of achieving optimum power at every point like a good EFI system. Simply put, we can achieve more power under the total operating curve with EFI ... and better mileage too.

If you're building from scratch ... buying a carb is much cheaper than an EFI system. If you're buying a used take out LS engine & keeping the factory injection, the cost is built in. You just need a good controller. If you're going for much bigger power than the stock EFI is capable of ... then you'll be buying parts or a complete new system. With an LS ... even if you go carbureted ... you still need an ignition controller.

The last points are more personal. Which fuel mixing option fits your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think engine choices are personal too ... and should take into account your budget, your tastes, your comfort zone & your goals. Some guys want to build an engine either themselves or through a shop. Others want to buy an engine ready to go. That's a personal choice.

If you're doing a low-mileage take out ... we're obviously talking LS platform ... you can get impressive power, technology, drivability, fuel mileage, etc at a bargain price. How much is dependent on the gem you found.

When you doing an engine (or engine & trans) swap ... always take into account ALL you have to change ... headers, exhaust, engine & trans mounts, driveshaft mods, belts, plumbing, wiring, alternator, etc, etc ... and potentially firewall and/or trans tunnel mods. There is more time & money in a change over than most plan for.

When you're building a car from scratch that doesn't have an existing engine &peripheral parts ... you have a clean slate. So then it comes back to budget, personal preference, goals, etc.

If you're building a new engine from scratch, using all new parts, the LS platform can be more spendy than an SBC. Of course you can pour crazy amounts of money into any build. If you're re-building an engine using existing parts ... it depends on what you already own. You will get more power, drivability & fuel mileage … for your buck … with the LS platform.

If you're buying a "crate engine" or "ready to run engine" from one of the zillion sources ... there are good & bad choices in both traditional SBC & modern LS based platforms. You have GM, many reputable engine shops & a few corner cutting engine shops ... all offering lots of choices.

If you can get the power you want, in an affordable SBC package ... and this achieves your goals .... why not? On the other hand, if your power goals are higher, want optimum drivability & fuel mileage ... and can justify the changeover time & costs ... go that way. The future is LS engines. But today you have choices.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In 2011, I worked out a 400-410" SBC combination that made 730hp & 600# of torque with 23° heads with a 4-barrel. When we raced this in our NASCAR Modifieds with a 2-barrel (per rules) and it made 597hp & 510# torque. It took a lot testing & development. It's a great package, powerful, responsive & reliable. I run a lot of Dart stuff, because Richard Maskin is one of the sharpest engine builders I know of & his stuff is always top notch. This 400-410" uses 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle ... and an aggressive Comp Cams roller grind & valvetrain. But fuel mileage ? Hmmmm ... not good.

I have scheduled development of a mean street/track warrior LS based package & expect 820hp with "decent" fuel mileage. The LS7 port style & 12° valve angle heads we'll use have a similar cross section & flow 379cfm of air at .600" valve lift. The 227cc CNC aluminum Pro1 Dart heads with the standard 23° SBC valve angle flow 309cfm at .700". That, my friends, is a HUGE difference. We're able to achieve much more power with a much less aggressive cam profile ... and have a more drivable package with increased fuel mileage ... with that kind of cylinder head advantage.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As we all know ... just a short time after the original SBC came out ... hot rodders were putting it all kinds of different cars. They were bolting on parts to increase power. Engine shops were building them to awesome power for the time period. Manufacturers started developing parts to build higher power levels. The LS is the next "small block Chevy." It's like the son that paid attention and learned all that the father taught it. Now is its time. Dad can hang around ... and occasionally give "the boy" a run for his money ... but the writing is on the wall.

Personally ... I am nostalgic about people, places & style ... not technology. Talking to, or just remembering, good friends & loved ones is a feel good moment. Revisiting places I've been before brings back fond memories. I love the look & style of older cars. But if I was nostalgic for old technology ... I'd be on my 286 computer, on dial up connection or no internet at all, no smart phone, no gps, waiting at the pharmacy for my photos to process. But that's not me.

Some guys & gals want their hot rod to take them back to a simpler time where none of these high tech gadgets existed ... even if it's only for a few hours at a time. That's cool too. One thing I love about hot rodding is we all get to make our own choices, for our own reasons. Now you simply have more to choose from.