Where do old muscle cars stand at autox/road racing in a stock suspension PT setup?

[DartorDemon]

Been wondering this as i'm getting my car together. I see lots of people competing with older muscle cars in formats where most of the competition is mostly other muscle cars, but i wonder how these cars contend to the modern field of camaros/mustangs/vettes/evos/wrx's/etc.

And I mean cars utlizing the oem type suspension. Since a first gen camaro with an aftermarket front end and vette IRS/4link and coils is basically a modern sports car.


I dont wanna sink a ton of money into building a PT mopar with the great handling parts and find that its only competitive at special muscle car events.

[Yoda4561]

You mean a factory style front coil (edit: err... torsion bar), rear leaf setup, with aftermarket control arms etc and 17-19 inch wheels? About like a modern camaro/base model c5 vette in terms of throwing it around corners, but the ride quality isn't as good as a modernized suspension at the same level of handling. If you throw enough money at it and know how to set up the suspension correctly (critical on those fancy coilover/3 and 4 link aftermarket suspensions, not to mention IRS) then you're probably going to end up somewhere in the range of a C6 vette, below a ZR1 but probably better than the base model car.

[mpozzi]

You should talk to rrunner68 (Dan W.) as he has Pro-Toured a Mopar and probably has the best example of one that's presently tracked and autocrossed. That car can't run the same times as the similarly modded Camaro and Mustang cars but it does a good job representing the Dodge/Chrysler make and Dan has a blast driving it. I also drove the car at several events and can attest it is the real deal and a fun car. Dan is a hell of a driver, too.

Will it win ... no. Especially as our Pro-Touring upgraded cars can't keep up with the Corvettes in stock trim now. There are a few exceptions to this, of course.

Mary Pozzi

[solarguy09]

You should talk to rrunner68 (Dan W.) as he has Pro-Toured a Mopar and probably has the best example of one that's presently tracked and autocrossed. That car can't run the same times as the similarly modded Camaro and Mustang cars but it does a good job representing the Dodge/Chrysler make and Dan has a blast driving it. I also drove the car at several events and can attest it is the real deal and a fun car. Dan is a hell of a driver, too.

Will it win ... no. Especially as our Pro-Touring upgraded cars can't keep up with the Corvettes in stock trim now. There are a few exceptions to this, of course.

Mary Pozzi

To me it seems like if you can have a great handling Car, that rides fairly Smooth, you will have fun every time you drive it..

I am sinking a ton of money into my car to first, have it handle like it is on rails, and for it to be smooth too..

I don't think I ever planned to come out and beat ZR-1's or Mary Pozzi.. Yes i want to win, and i have set my sights high, but if you set up your Mopar well enough, you should be competitive and have a blast too...

[sik68]

My stock WRX "handles" better than my camaro for sure...but I don't really equate handling to measurable performance. My camaro will definitely run faster lap times, but that's mostly due to more horsepower, better tires, and less body roll. But I can't drive my camaro anywhere near as aggressively as the WRX...the subi is more predictable and confidence inspiring. I can dive into a corner way too hot, yank the steering wheel in terrible directions, mat the throttle on exit, and the car just takes care of you the whole way through. I feel some level of the same overconfidence driving many new sports cars: Porsche, Corvette, even the Viper (somewhat) just feel planted like I could never imagine my Camaro could (maybe I don't have enough money into it ) . With the Camaro, there's just so much more adrenalin...when at the limit, it feels like it can punt you off the track at any moment, and that's what makes it fun.

[pedro]

I think the answer depends on the driver and level of competition, but for what it’s worth here are my experiences at the local auto-x’s in VA Beach. ’04-’08 I ran modified EVO8, usually was in the top 15. In ’11 I ran 4 events with G8, best place was 14 of 59 then switched to ’69 Camaro for the remaining 6 events. My best finish with the Camaro was 23 of 59. Camaro has AME front with ridetech rear. I continue to improve and make changes to the car, but I don’t think it will ever be as good as my EVO. If I was building a competitive auto-x car it would not be an old muscle car. That being said I have a blast with the Camaro at auto-x/track days and would not think of trading it for a more “competitive” auto-x car.

Pete

[mpozzi]

To me it seems like if you can have a great handling Car, that rides fairly Smooth, you will have fun every time you drive it..

I am sinking a ton of money into my car to first, have it handle like it is on rails, and for it to be smooth too..

I don't think I ever planned to come out and beat ZR-1's or Mary Pozzi.. Yes i want to win, and i have set my sights high, but if you set up your Mopar well enough, you should be competitive and have a blast too...

You said it the absolute best and the main focus is to have fun and push to the limits of the car and your abilities behind the wheel.

Mary Pozzi

[71duster]

i am running basically stock mopar suspension. i am about to upgrade my torsion bars finally,and i have outrun stock c6 vette's on on the tail of z06's in autocross. now on a road track.............we'll see this year i hope.

[Hunter68]

ya i was wondering this same thing. i love my car but if it is easier to just buy a car that is better out of the box then i dont see myself putting a **** ton of money in my camaro when i can a newer car and have it be a lot better

[rustomatic]

What's the point in trying to compete with a new car? You can easily dump 40 grand in junk on a '69 Camaro, and a stock 2012 VW GTI will kill it, for half the money. Sadly, the VW will also compete pretty well in the drag race, because the Camaro, even with 500 horses, still probably won't be able to make the tires stick. The point is that the old car does something else for you, in spades; put me in a new Corvette, and I will just try to beat it, and probably be impressed with what it does. Then, I'll put it back where I got it, and not care. With my Falcon, it's the exact opposite, and it looks like crap, but here's the thing: The guy with the Ferrari will pause much longer to check out my Falcon than he will another Ferrari...

Maybe I just like hearing gravel bits pinging off my subframe connectors, and how they subsequently echo through the tubing in the passenger compartment that I haphazardly welded together. You can buy this experience, but I wouldn't recommend it. My mess works because I made it do what I wanted it to do, and that's a big part of the adrenaline rush I get from trying to get the tires to squeal under lateral acceleration.

[SLO_Z28]

Purpose built cars, that are built for a specific class, can do very well. A good example of that is Brian Hobaugh's 73 Camaro that is built to SCCA SOLO 2 C-Prepared specs, its a very competitive car. In fact you see a lot of cool muscle in CP.

[DartorDemon]

What's the point in trying to compete with a new car? You can easily dump 40 grand in junk on a '69 Camaro, and a stock 2012 VW GTI will kill it, for half the money. Sadly, the VW will also compete pretty well in the drag race, because the Camaro, even with 500 horses, still probably won't be able to make the tires stick. The point is that the old car does something else for you, in spades; put me in a new Corvette, and I will just try to beat it, and probably be impressed with what it does. Then, I'll put it back where I got it, and not care. With my Falcon, it's the exact opposite, and it looks like crap, but here's the thing: The guy with the Ferrari will pause much longer to check out my Falcon than he will another Ferrari...

Maybe I just like hearing gravel bits pinging off my subframe connectors, and how they subsequently echo through the tubing in the passenger compartment that I haphazardly welded together. You can buy this experience, but I wouldn't recommend it. My mess works because I made it do what I wanted it to do, and that's a big part of the adrenaline rush I get from trying to get the tires to squeal under lateral acceleration.

Well the point is that at the average autox, you will be racing with mostly "modern cars". So it'd be nice to see where these old cars stand in terms of competitiveness.

[chuckd71]

But can't you discern that just by looking at results from past events? An old car will not be as good as a new car, that's just progress and the way things go. Muscle cars weren't really designed for this sort of stuff to begin with, and most people auto x-ing newer cars will probably have modded them in some way as well. Stands to reason new cars built to hug corners will out perform 40 year old rolling steel bricks built with no regard for turning (or stopping).

[DartorDemon]

But can't you discern that just by looking at results from past events? An old car will not be as good as a new car, that's just progress and the way things go. Muscle cars weren't really designed for this sort of stuff to begin with, and most people auto x-ing newer cars will probably have modded them in some way as well. Stands to reason new cars built to hug corners will out perform 40 year old rolling steel bricks built with no regard for turning (or stopping).

well first off, past events are not a judgement of a specific cars ability. For example, how many Zr1's won the last few american drift races? Does that mean they're ****ty drift cars or that people just don't drift them in competitions?

And the reason i'm asking is that most PT cars arent "40yr old rolling steel bricks with no regard for turning". Generally, PT cars are built for turning and handling. Many of which utilize the stock style suspension and just fix the problems from 30-40yrs ago.

[firebob]

There's so much with the old iron that you can't "fix" without turning it into a hollowed out race car. You can make them work as good as you have money to spend on them but don't expect to win against modern setups unless the other drivers are just not able or willing to take full advantage of what their car can do. Just be happy with making what you have better than it was last time you took it out. Or leave it alone and get yourself something else to race with.
JMHO.

Robert

[jvtex]

I think my old 1968 Mustang does pretty well with stock style suspension. Front is all stock Ford control arms, swaybars and springs. Running Biltstein shocks with a heavier front Maier Racing spring and a larger diameter Swaybar. Rear is Stock style Leaf springs at a heavier Maier Racing Rates as well. Only thing modern about this car is the Maier Racing Pan Hard Bar. Other than that it is all Stock Style 1960's Ford geometry.





Motor: 302ci, RV cam, Performer intake, Holley carb and LongTubes, completely stock iron heads and internals, maybe 245HP.
T-5 transmission with stock clutch.
Tires are 3-year-old Bridgestones.
Stock Power Steering has all but failed.
Brakes are completely stock 1 piston fronts and Drums in the rear. YES That's how I'm rolling.
Here is How I ranked at the last GoodGuys Autum Get-Together. 4th. not bad considereing.

Class First Name Last Name Car Model Raw Time
SM Brian Hobaugh 70 Chevy Camaro 26.516
SM Mark Rife 63 Chevy Corvette 26.965
SM Mary Pozzi 72 Chevy Camaro 27.608
SM Joel Villarreal 68 Ford Mustang 28.289
SM Chris Julian 07 Ultima GTR 28.401
SM Barry Goldine 69 Chevy Camaro RS 28.408
SM Martin Pond 74 Ford Fairmont 28.507
SM Ryon/Rob Chandler 68 Chevy Camaro 28.87
SM Mark Frazier 71 Datsun 240z 28.906
SM Gil Alfonso 65 Chevy Chevelle 28.926
SM Deanna Marengo 71 Chevy Camaro 28.941
SM Dave Gordon 68 Chevy Camaro 28.946
SM Gary Melton Jr. 67 Chevy Corvette 28.96
SM Keith Smith 71 Chevy Camaro 28.981
SM Carol McKenny 65 Ford Mustang 28.998
SM Martha Gregory 02 Chevy Camaro 29.16
SM Robert James 70 Chevy Corvair 29.188
SM Rob Chandler 68 Chevy Camaro 29.226
SM Steve Kavros 10 Chevy Camaro 29.239
SM Rodney Prouty 68 Chevy Camaro 29.508
SM Mike Kamimoto 89 Chevy IROC 29.609
SM Anthony Smith 73 Chevy Z28 Camaro 29.954
SM Adrian Mancilla 67 Chevy Nova 30.069
SM Kurt Kile 65 Ford Cobra 30.138
SM Mike Williams 69 Dodge Charger 30.244
SM Todd Ray 67 Chevy Chevelle 30.286
SM Charles Mosley 11 Ford Shelby GTO 30.499
SM Jeff Wieser 69 Chevy Camaro 30.65
SM Gene Welch 69 Chevy Camaro 30.676
SM Juan Valle 04 Ford Mustang 30.753
SM Sal Seeno 70 Chevy Nova 30.808
SM David Ferranti 00 Chevy Camaro 30.85
SM John Mantiply 06 Ford Mustang 30.867
SM Bob Ordonez 66 Ford Mustang 30.93
SM Andrew Range 95 Mercury Lincoln 30.935
SM Jason Benson 86 Buick T-tyoe 31.073
SM Brian Mollath 00 Chevy Camaro 31.275
SM Robert Mollins 00 Chevy HHR 31.341
SM Steve Olivier 88 Ford Mustang 31.448
SM Brian 71 Chevy Malibu 31.529
SM Armando Barrigan 88 Ford Mustang 31.536
SM Kirk Jensen 10 Chevy Camaro 31.597
SM Denise Rea 62 Chevy Nova Wagon 31.62
SM Hector 96 Pontiac Trans Am 31.678
SM Joaquin 90 Chevy Corvette 31.93
SM Gregg Saunders 10 Dodge Challenger 32.143
SM Jason Weeks 04 Ford SVT Cobra 32.576
SM Davlo Figveirevo 70 Ford Maverick 32.829
SM Herb Wood 68 Chevy Camaro 32.86
SM Senad Metovic 67 Chevy Camaro 33.294
SM Willie Jaitano 61 Cadillac 33.347
SM Gary Miller 63 Ford Falcon 34.033
SM Bryan Pridmore 76 Cosworth Vega 39.928
SM Joe Escobar 74 Ford Pinto 50.424
SM Robin Russell 64 1/2 Ford Mustang DNS
SM Eddie Maniln 01 Chevy Corvette
V Brandy Morrow 70 Chevy Camaro 0.6
V Mike Maier 66 Ford Mustang 27.057
V Gearhead Garage 76 Chevy Corvette 30.368
V Jason Ride Tech 67 Chevy Camaro 30.931
FUN Mike Maier 90 Ford Mustang 26.204
FUN Mike Jameson 71 Chevy Z28 29.128
FUN Liz Miles 68 Chevy Camaro 31.371
TRK Rob McGregor 55 Ford F-100 28.631
TRK Fish Newman 27 Ford T Pickup 28.866
TRK Tom Pagano 56 Ford F150 32.56
TRK Darrin Fagundes 05 Chevy Colorado 33.341
TRK Roger Lomibal 37 Ford Truck 33.452
TRK Jason Wollenberger 71 Chevy 1500 35.856

[SLO_Z28]

I would like to point out that I was faster than modified 5th gen camaros at an autocross this year, with a broken steering column, no power steering, and a car that would stall every run. My leaf sprung 360 treadwear carbed car was .2 faster than the best runs of some of the 5th gens, and thats havint to toss my car in neutral and start it from a roll. My friends 92 camaro with springs and shocks was significantly faster than any of the new mustangs or camaros, and even faster than a Ford GT.

BTW, I love the gif in the sig Joel.

[firebob]

Not to get off subject but I've wondered if they limit tire type when you run at the Good Guys? I know they call it "Street Challange" so I wondered if they require DOT tires or anything goes.

Robert

[mpozzi]

It's treadwear that they focus on, Robert. Good Guys mandates 180 or greater treadwear on DOT tires to be eligible for class placings. They'll let you run if you have softer tires but it's for FUN only. Almost every other Pro-Touring style event (track, autocross, braking, and cruise) have their treadwear requirement at 200 or above.

Mary Pozzi

[79-TA]

I would like to point out that I was faster than modified 5th gen camaros at an autocross this year, with a broken steering column, no power steering, and a car that would stall every run. My leaf sprung 360 treadwear carbed car was .2 faster than the best runs of some of the 5th gens, and thats havint to toss my car in neutral and start it from a roll. My friends 92 camaro with springs and shocks was significantly faster than any of the new mustangs or camaros, and even faster than a Ford GT.

BTW, I love the gif in the sig Joel.

James, 5th gens don't count . . . they're . . . special.