Introducing Project Unfair, The fastest All Around Pro Touring Car On The Planet!

[The WidowMaker]

I liken this to a Evel Kneivel jump. Half the people are hoping he makes it, the other half are hoping he crashes. I expect this to be no different

there may be a couple people that would bet against it, but i hope nobody would like to see this fail.

[twosaturns]

now if we can just get Frank to refer to the road coUrse instead of coArse we'll be halfway there!
(sorry, I'm a spelling cop)

[windsor]

there may be a couple people that would bet against it, but i hope nobody would like to see this fail.

you gotta be a **** to want to see this very innovative project fail in any aspect.... that doesn't mean we shouldn't be a bit skeptical ;)

That should give them motivation.

(I'd be a lot more of a cheerleader if it were a Ford )

[Gitter Dun]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.

[MrQuick]

Gear heads are tinker types from birth, going from drag to twisties with a push of a button would not be in the spirit of the site or hobby.

Id be happy with a great autocross, sticky road course car the runs 11's with no tire change and gets 23 MPG . Much like Vins car.
Moving or replacing links and adjusting shocks are reasonable tasks.
I believe they have the know how and resources to get it done.
I am more of a let them build it
let them learn
then let them teach so all can learn kinda guy.
Vince

[T_Raven]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.

This is kinda what I was thinking. It's a cool build either way. But it's not so Unfair if you have to swap parts between events.

[Greg from Aus]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.

I really think you are missing the point, that it can be done. They are talking about some adjustments, not sliding in a complete new rear end. Even race teams slide out shocks and springs from track to track, Its all still in the same packaging.

Greg

[twosaturns]

Just a few cents here from the peanut gallery, And I am not knocking your building skills one bit because you are obviously a proven and skilled builder, but it seems to me, and please correct me if I'm wrong, that you are getting away from the original theme of the car when you have to remove and replace parts for street, drag, and autocross/road race.

Like I said, not knocking it, and I truly appreciate what your doing, but to have a car that could visit each of those challenges without replacing parts, IMO, would be alot more appealing for someone like myself to build.

There is no doubt in my mind that you will meet your goals but it seems to me the real challenge would be to build a car that could do all that you said without having to remove and replace parts for each venue.

No, I'm not the fun police, just a realist.

any car CAN run a race course and the 1/4 and an autocross; a stock corvette would do all reasonably well. but I think the LEVEL they want to play at would require parts/setup/geometry changes. it looks like they are shooting for a car that can be OPTIMIZED for EACH, instead of being great at one, and just ok at the others.

[XLexusTech]

Just to weigh in on parts swapping.....
1) typically the "all around" goals are targeted with adjustments only.
2) Typically the goals are not so High *8.5 is freaking fast.
3) If you kept it to adjustments only it would likely still kick ass but and 8.50.... nope not going to do that without some real suspension setup.. That AM 5 link looks killer if they keep it to shock an link adjustment then that's cool with me
4) Its Franks gig he can do whatever the hell he wants.....
5) Once you start swapping major parts.... you might as well start swapping engines..... What kind of parts we taking here?

[silver69camaro]

Is there a reason why you are going with the Watts pivot attached to the rearend housing. I thought that having it frame mounted was better am I misinformed.

I didn't look like anybody answered your question, so I will.

Frame-mounted watts pivots have the advantage of removing about one pound of unprung weight and keeping the RC in a constant location. In a car that has little suspension travel like a PT car does, it's a moot point. The RC height stays pretty much constant in roll.

Also, packaging is a major problem for frame-mount watts.

[ProdigyCustoms]

I do not think a car can be built to be excellent at all events with tweaking only, or in cab adjustments. TwoSaturns nailed it, we want the car Optimized for each event, and hard as we thought we could not dream up something that could do it all. And when I say we, let me tell you. John and I have direct numbers for all the major players in the PT word, and we used them.

As mentioned, Sprint Cup cars run different shock and spring packages for Watkins Glenn then Daytona (if they use the same car at all). Drag racers have all kind of different springs and shocks for different track temps. We have 5 arms and 2 sets of shock to choose from. Not much different.

So look at this car as 2 cars in one. A Transfomer of sorts. We think we can convert the car from road racer to drag racer in a couple hours tops. Some people adjust tire pressure and shock adjustment, we adjust suspension bars and shock packages with a quick disconnect.

As Tonner said (who is building Unfair II BTW), it is not like we are changing motors or rears.

[parsonsj]

I love the discussion guys! Keep it coming.

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes. It would be awesome if we could have a found a way to easily tweak it to change modes.

But let's examine that. For fun, let's just fantasize a bit: let's say that changing the car from road racing to drag racing involved lengthening the upper arm by 1/2" and shortening the lower arm by 1/2". Further, let's say we need to adjust the shocks by twisting the knobs, but that we have to change springs.

OK? Everybody got that?

Lengthen/shorten the arms, swap springs, change shock settings.

Now, instead of tweaking those things, just imagine swapping them: Change the upper arm for one 1/2" shorter. Change the lower arms for ones 1/2" longer. Swap the coilovers to different springs and with the shocks already adjusted.

I say the two approaches are functionally equivalent. And the better approach, because its easier to ensure repeatability, is to swap parts instead of tweak them.

Thoughts?

jp

[Bjkadron]

I love the discussion guys! Keep it coming.

I get the disappointment about parts swapping to transform the car between different modes. It would be awesome if we could have a found a way to easily tweak it to change modes.

But let's examine that. For fun, let's just fantasize a bit: let's say that changing the car from road racing to drag racing involved lengthening the upper arm by 1/2" and shortening the lower arm by 1/2". Further, let's say we need to adjust the shocks by twisting the knobs, but that we have to change springs.

OK? Everybody got that?

Lengthen/shorten the arms, swap springs, change shock settings.

Now, instead of tweaking those things, just imagine swapping them: Change the upper arm for one 1/2" shorter. Change the lower arms for ones 1/2" longer. Swap the coilovers to different springs and with the shocks already adjusted.

I say the two approaches are functionally equivalent. And the better approach, because its easier to ensure repeatability, is to swap parts instead of tweak them.

Thoughts?

jp

You should do it like mine! With adjustable Wheel-rates! But I'm not going to tell you how to do it So.. Sorry.

[formula]

In a perfect world, the coolest way to do it would be with a ferrari-style "mannetino" on the steering wheel/center console that had STREET, DRAG, and COURSE settings--switching to each would reconfigure link lengths, reset spring rates, and readjust the shocks to match.

But that....would be very difficult. Looking at problably magnetorheological shocks, either air springs or an air/coil combo....tons of linear actuators...packaging turns into a nightmare....and to use that suspension design and be able to connect/disconnect from inside the car would be a safety nightmare...

I'm trying to understand--are you guys going to actually use some sort of quick-disconnect for all of the swappable parts? Because then I think it would be legit. Sort of like a quick-change rear end, just with the entire suspension.

Plus I would LOVE to be able to just flip some sort of pin out of my g-bar links and adjust link lengths at the track without tools. Buhmaybedasjusme.

[Bryce]

dirt track and circle track cars use quick disconnect pins on their control arms for quick pit changes to geometry. So it exists and is a tried method.

[Vegas69]

Since this is a "Pro Touring" car, I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands? hahaha

[JMarsa]

It's looking like the end result is more Iron Man



Than transformers



--JMarsa

[John Wright]

Since this is a "Pro Touring" car, I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands? hahaha

Maybe David and James will lend them their trailer when they get through with the one lap event....LOL...just poking some fun.

[parsonsj]

I'm assuming you will have mounting brackets in the trunk for the extra arms, coil overs, jack, and jackstands?

LOL! But let me ask you guys that drive your car on the track something:

Do you race your car with the tools and supplies in the car that you needed to get your car ready for the track? Are you running the autoX with your jackstands and floor jack in the trunk?

If we can transform the car at the track with hand tools, floor jack, and jackstands then it's the same thing... just a different degree.

jp

[parsonsj]

Maybe David and James will lend them their trailer

No need. Frank and I have 4 trailers between us. Trailers and tow vehicles... we got covered.

jp