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    Thread: Diy - fail

    1. #1
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      Diy - fail

      Hey, I'm all for guys making stuff themselves. Our own Lowbuck-X is a legend in this regard. But this......oh boy.

      http://forums.corral.net/forums/show...=1#post9311510



      Sometime in the near future this guy will need a sound clip of Jeremy Clarkson's Yorkshire accent uttering the words, "This has not gone well."
      True T.

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    2. #2
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      Atlanta GA
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    3. #3
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      wow... thats not gonna be good
      Colin Russ

    4. #4
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      Sep 2007
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      Ventura, ca
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      no words.
      I am not useless, I can still be used as a bad example!


      -Bob

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Apr 2009
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      IL
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      Threads like that make me cringe. It makes me wonder how many other would be engineers have decided to redesign their steering system, which is one of THE most critical safety features on their vehicle. Imagine what would happen if that failed at highway speeds.

      I commute to work every day, and I such I spend a significant amount of time at 75 mph, or higher, with my fellow drivers. When I see a thread like that I spend the next week wondering which car is going to veer wildy into my lane as I FLY down the interstate.

    6. #6
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      Olathe, KS
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      That's... well... interesting.

    7. #7
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      I can't blame a guy for having the idea, or even experimenting, but his being clueless as to the danger he puts OTHERS in is scary.
      Nick R.
      69 Camaro - 383, 700R4, 12 bolt 3.55, Hotchkis, Bilstein, Global West, Morris Classic
      08 HHR SS - Still Stock for now
      Do you still believe in all the things that you stood by before? Are you out there on the front lines, or at home keeping score?
      Do you care to be the layer of the bricks that seal your fate? Would you rather be the architect of what we might create?

    8. #8
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      He's just converted it to solid. I may be missing something here. Most of us are running solid shafts and two u joints with rack and pinion steering. If he doesn't have solid body bushings then there could be a definite issue.
      Todd

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      538
      It sure looks like hell, but unless I am missing something, the aluminum sandwich is acting as a spacer with some shear loading and if you removed it altogether the bolts would still provide the load path.

      Consider a rag joint provides isolation, and we probably have all driven a car with worn out rag joint -- the steering becomes imprecise, but not necessarily unsafe.


    10. #10
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      You are missing something.

      Work + harden =
      True T.

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    11. #11
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      Aug 2004
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      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True View Post
      You are missing something.

      Work + harden =
      What do you predict the failure mode will be?

    12. #12
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      Quote Originally Posted by JohnUlaszek View Post
      What do you predict the failure mode will be?
      I'm not an engineer, nor did I stay at a holiday in express last night.

      That said, a rag joint is used where there is a differential angle between a steering shaft and the input shaft to a steering gear or rack. The rag joint flexes each time the shaft turns at a relative point 90deg out from the vertical axis and is concentrated between the bolts. I would suppose, rightly I believe, that this assembly will flex at that same point, work harden and fail.

      Either that or the bolt holes will eventually elongate until a failure develops between a bolt hole and the outside edge of the disk.
      True T.

      Whats new with Project 1/2-Trak?


      Follow my wisecracks on Sports, Food, Politics and other BS on Twitter.

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      When they kick out your front door, How you gonna come?
      With your hands on your head, Or on the trigger of your gun?

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Sep 2007
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      Livermore, Ca
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      78
      whats wrong with having a rag joint. does going to a solid set up make that big a diffrence?

    14. #14
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      Aug 2004
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      538
      The more I look at the photos in the original link, the more I think if he does get into trouble, it will be because he appears to have swapped out two of the shoulder bolts for fully threaded fasteners.

      In theory you should still be able to drive without the disc so long as the shoulder bolts are used.

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      San Antonio, TX
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      Without a u-joint, it could possibly bind enough it will not turn. If it does rotate, any side-loading will cause stress to the steering shaft knuckle and the steering box output shaft, one of those will fracture, losing all steering.
      If he thought it thru a little longer, just drill out the rivets and replace them with bolts, tightening down the plates would eliminate most of the slop caused by a worn rag joint.


    16. #16
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      538
      Quote Originally Posted by mc84_zz4 View Post
      Without a u-joint, it could possibly bind enough it will not turn. If it does rotate, any side-loading will cause stress to the steering shaft knuckle and the steering box output shaft, one of those will fracture, losing all steering.
      I agree with True that the rag joint does account for some misalignment, but there is, in fact, a u-joint based on the photos and I would assume a slip joint somewhere too.


    17. #17
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      Correct, there is now 1 ujoint where before there were 2. That means eother twice the work by one joint, or, as was mentioned on the linked site, the pilot bearing on the rack input shaft would more likely see the excess strain and possibly fail there. Also, a safty feature was the additional tabs coming off where the rivey had been. He removed it. They function to act as a very loose connection in the event of a rag joint failure. Now not only has he moved the misalignment from the rag joint location to possibly the rack, he has also eliminated a safety feature should the joint istelf fail. Not very well thought out.
      Nick R.
      69 Camaro - 383, 700R4, 12 bolt 3.55, Hotchkis, Bilstein, Global West, Morris Classic
      08 HHR SS - Still Stock for now
      Do you still believe in all the things that you stood by before? Are you out there on the front lines, or at home keeping score?
      Do you care to be the layer of the bricks that seal your fate? Would you rather be the architect of what we might create?

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      Rockford Illinois
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      The problem of loose steering or bad road feel is not going to be solved by his fix, the problem he is having is somewhere else and he has failed to recognize it and is blaming the wrong part. Once he gets it in I would bet he will still have the same problem magnified by his fix.
      We have all drove vehicles with rag joints that have precise steering. Corvettes in 1984 and 5 had a double u joint and an isolater that made it all very solid but would still dampen the vibration. I have one of these on my car right now and it is working well and the vibrations are not evident in my wheel. In 1986-7 the Corvettes went with an aluminum shaft and a rag joint, the reason for the change was to reduce cost and weight. The end result was just as good steering response and still good vibration isolation. Rag joints work, it's just that plain and simple. They have worked for years and are inexpensive to replace. The guy spent good money for bad and could have just bought a new $10 rag joint.

      Aluminum will fail under the stresses that he is using it for, steel would have been a better choice. If he had ever seen aluminum couplers used like that and how they wear he would realize that he would be back to loose steering in about a week or is that weak moment. Steel couplers will even wear and get loose even in straight line scenarios. The jack shafts I have worked on over the years that were of the same configuration were always going in one direction and would wear soon enough but going both directions will really cause them to be loose in no time. The engineer was correct about the problems and could have gone further with with the reasons to not do it but he was trying to be nice.


      I am glad he warned us about it so we can stay clear because it is going to be a dancing Ford soon enough.
      Last edited by Jim Nilsen; 11-06-2009 at 03:09 PM.
      May The Horsepower Be With You !!!

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      538
      Jim,
      I agree, rag joints work fine.

      You mentioned seeing wear on jack shaft assemblies -- what was the application and input loads?

      What do you think the loads are on a rag joint?

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
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      2,413
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True View Post
      Hey, I'm all for guys making stuff themselves. Our own Lowbuck-X is a legend in this regard. But this......oh boy.

      http://forums.corral.net/forums/show...=1#post9311510

      Sometime in the near future this guy will need a sound clip of Jeremy Clarkson's Yorkshire accent uttering the words, "This has not gone well."
      My approach was a bit different.. Nice solid feel cost same as a new rag joint but took a whole hell of a lot more work...lol
      Nothing says "I built this" better than tool marks and dykem blue..

      Follow my 3 link build. https://www.pro-touring.com/forum/sh...ad.php?t=61592

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