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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987

      FINALLY started the 454 and i think the Ultradyne cam went flat!

      Well after 2 years, my car is finally to the point of starting the motor. I made sure evertying was functional before actually starting it up. The front clip still needs to go on, and the brakes aren't finished yet but i started it today. Here is the scenerio, i have a 468 with an ultradyne 288/296 solid flat tappet with comp cams solid lifters. I pulled the inner valve springs out, ran a quart of GM EOS, and used a ton of cranes grey paste cam break in lube. THe first time i tried to start it i turned the electric pump on and the carb completely flooded and had a geyser coming out of the vent tube. It was a sticky needle and seat. Then it cranked and didn't fire, then i HATED to do this, but i cranked and cranked I know how to set a motor up and have done it a lot of times before, but this was a complete car build. Then after some cranking i came back today and found out i had some issues with the MSD system. I fixed the issues, and realized the oile smelled like gas, so i guess it flooded before and the oil mixed with the gas. SO i dumped the oil and filled it back up and put some more EOS in it, but i had already primed the motor with the gas in the oil and crnaked it some. So i fixed the oil and msd and had to crank more and more . I can't believe i had to crank this motor so much, i truly expected it to fire right away..... So finally i get it running, and it runs like a beast!....until i notice the passenger side valvce cover is ticking real loud. So i shut it down and check it out and one of the poly locks is super loose!!! SO i tighten it back up to spec hoping it was just a mishap. THen i go ahead and break the cam in some more. Well it still kinda ticks but is better, then i can't really say but i noticed the ticking again on teh same passenger side. Nothing is extremley loose but a few rocker arms have way too much slack in them. so i put a dial indicator on 2 of them and adjust it to zero lash and only get about 550 lift and 520 lift, and i am supposed to have 612 and 630. So i assume i have a super flat cam? possilby from the cranking and the gas in the oil. Tomorrow i will have to cut open the filter and check it out,, but i think my chances are grim. I took all of the precautions but i might be another failure. Its going to be a PITA to take it all apart, as everything is SUPER detailed and put togehter very nicely. Any suggestions, tips or help? thanks!
      this is a awful feeling, but maybe i will have to go solid roller now?



    2. #2
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      609
      You didn't set all your valves initially at zero lash did you? If you are tedious about keeping a clean engine compartment, why did you opt for a solid flat tappet cam? Periodic adjustments mean getting your detailed engine more dirty than would be needed if you built a solid roller instead-then again, those are harsh on valvesprings.....yeah, I'd go with a hydraulic roller next time IMO. -Jabin
      Gmachinz Sales and Performance
      "updating the level of performance..."

      [email protected]
      *never argue with an idiot-they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!*

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Nov 2003
      Location
      Paradise, Ca
      Posts
      1,411
      If you forsee building many more engines, build yourself a "run-in stand" and be done with the mess you're about to have to deal with. It's so much easier to break a cam in, check for leaks, do the first oil change, and, yeah, put new cams in when you have it on a stand outside of the car.

      Either that or a dyno...I wouldn't do it any other way.
      -Matt

      Welders: The only people that think a co-worker catching on fire is funny.

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      hydro rollers in a bbc suck. big time valve float. also a solid roller needs periodic valve adjustment just the same. And while i am at it, you got it wrong, solid rollers are hard on lifters. you need stiffer springs to control the valvetrain, so actually the spirngs are hard on the cam/lifter. And no i didn't set me lash at zero........

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      p.s. no leaks!! I was really ready for this thing to fire at the tip of the key. once it ran, everything was 100% perfect....except for the cam thingy

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Mar 2002
      Location
      Redwood City, CA
      Posts
      1,895,413,640
      Country Flag: United States
      How many lobes did you check? Also, make sure your exhaust isn't leaking too. That's been known to throw some people off.
      Allen Ortega
      Meanstreets Performance Fabrication

      ---------------------------------------

      Vegetarians are the reason for global warming

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      hmm, how does an exhaust leak create loose rocker arms? oh, wait you mean the noise? it was for sure a ridiculously loose rocker arm the first time. i checked 2 lobes

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Dec 2000
      Location
      NE Florida
      Posts
      2,483
      Yody- where & at what engine speed did you measure the 550 and 520? Going from 612 and 630 to 550 and 520 is quite a chunk to lose on a a break-in run. It sounds like you've still got extra lash set in, which is 'stealing' your lift #s.

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      it wasnt' running? i am a little confused by your question, maybe i didn't explain correctly. I put a dial indicator on the valve spring retainer and turned the motor over, and watched how much lift i had. I still need to double check everything but i am pretty sure i am adjusting it correctly. I was curious to see if i am losing way too much lift. I think i should check the rocker studs too!

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Aug 2003
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      8,745
      How long was the motor assembled before you fired it? Was it 2 years? If so, prelubes that sit for long periods can turn into abrasives as they dry out. I doubt your gas filed oil hurt anything since you changed the oil before running it. I doubt the gas fililed oil was able to wash the cam lobes off from just priming and turning the motor.
      Personally, I would run through the valves again, do your measurment again, run it and see if it changes again. You really have nothing to loose as the filter would be catching anything before it got to the crank anyway. I have lost a couple cams over the years, even rollers that came apart, and never had other damage from stuff running through.
      I would change the oil, adjust the valves, measure, and triple check lash at the suspected problem, and run it. If it is eating a lobe, it will continue to eat until it is gone. Or, pull the motor and start over.

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      1,260
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by yody
      hydro rollers in a bbc suck. big time valve float. also a solid roller needs periodic valve adjustment just the same. And while i am at it, you got it wrong, solid rollers are hard on lifters. you need stiffer springs to control the valvetrain, so actually the spirngs are hard on the cam/lifter. And no i didn't set me lash at zero........

      How to BBC hyraulic rollers cause float anymore than SBC? They are basically the same lifter. There might be a bit more weight with the longer cross bar, but the solids have that too.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      good point about the lifter, but with a roller they are not the same. They are just heavier. I have never ran run so i can't telly out he specifics on it, but it is just a plain fact. You "might" get 6000 rpm out of a well put together valve train with a hydro in a BBC. I definetly and looking for horsepower not longetivy and smootheness. I think i will just stab another solid flat tappet if it is flat. I was thinking along the same thing as prodigy, and that was my plan for the day, unless i pull the filter and there are chunks of metal, or something really obvious.

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Nov 2004
      Location
      Colorado
      Posts
      1,260
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by yody
      good point about the lifter, but with a roller they are not the same. They are just heavier. I have never ran run so i can't telly out he specifics on it, but it is just a plain fact. You "might" get 6000 rpm out of a well put together valve train with a hydro in a BBC. I definetly and looking for horsepower not longetivy and smootheness. I think i will just stab another solid flat tappet if it is flat. I was thinking along the same thing as prodigy, and that was my plan for the day, unless i pull the filter and there are chunks of metal, or something really obvious.

      I run an Isky Hyro roller, 284/294 total 234/244 at 50, 58xI 600E. I've run it to 6400 , no float with the isky 8005 springs. Don't know about longevity.
      One of the nice thing about big blocks is that they have enough low end with big cams that you don't have to spool them up. If you are not concerned about knock sensors, the solid roller is the way to go though. Mine is EFI, and I wanted the KS.

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987

      uh-oh

      dumped the oil today [Frown] ...... the oil out of the pan looked okay, kinda dirty though, but the magnetic drain plug on the moroso pan didnt look too bad, once i wiped it with a rag you could see some grey on the rag, but the magent wasn't fuzzy or anything. Then when i dumped the oil filter !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the oil that came out of the filter looked like silver fudge, looked like silver nail polish or something. So the cam is DEFINETLY wiped out. I reallyreallyreallyreallyreally don't want to pull the motor, if i have to i will probably give up on the car for a few months, and will forget about summer. The oil coming out of the pan for sure didn't look nearly as bad as the oil in the filter(K+N). Please lie to me and tell me to flush the motor out and stab a new cam in it and run it! I am running the clevite race bearings, i think they are the H series? so thery aren't as forgiving. How many people had a cam go flat(really flat) and still ran the motor with a new cam? how many people pulled the motor and the bearings looked okay? the motor was probably only ran for no more than 15 minutes.

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Kiler wisconson
      Posts
      400
      Hell id throw a new cam in it... I had a friend to flattened an cam a long time ago with a SBC and it smoked the oilpump and the bearings, but he drove the car for 5 miles before the cam totally went...

      as long as you still had good oil pressure the filter should have cought all the shavings.. THEREFORE id just throw the new cam in.... Granted you will still have to pull the radiator, intake etc... but easier than the whole engine..


      Then again you might have caused alot of damage to the oil pump.. and it might be better to pull the pan and check the oil pump..... I sure wouldnt worry about the bearings thought, the little time you had it running.. under no load..
      Project JUST-N-SANE

      84' Camaro Z-28, 355CID,9.0-1 compression, ATI procharger 9psi (over 650HP),T56 6 speed, 3.73 Motive gears! 11.70 at 122mph in the 1/4 while babying the throttle to keep the tires hooked ,with pump gas! (NOW INTERCOOLED)

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Jun 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas
      Posts
      593
      I would say that if your pan looked okay, than that's a direct reflection of the oil that was running through the motor so your okay on your bearings as the oil filter did it's job. Do you have the oil bypass plugged? Was your oil pressure right when running....where was it at? Also, all this crap about hydraulic rollers and roller cams in BBC is just that, crap. $200 will buy you a rev kit that is extrodinarily good at what it does...seriously, I've never had a problem with valve float when using these...ever. I think AFR sells them for around that price. There is a bit more weight, though, with the lifters (like you said) in a BBC but the rev kits keep it under control very nicely.
      Jody, given the level of detail I've seen on your stuff I would carefully re-measure everything before getting into tearing it all apart. .520 to .630 is way to much for break in wear. The only possible way to grind down that much is by improperly adjusting your rockers. The only other possibility is that specs you were given for your cam were already with a 1.6 ratio lift and you're running 1.5s. Are you using custom length pushrods? Did you measure the lift when doing your piston to valve clearance or setting up your geometry? If so...what was it then?

      If it was me, I'd pull the manifold and check lobe lift at the cam and inspect each lifter's height as well as the pushrods and check for problems there before I pull the motor.
      BTW-I forgot to tell you in the other post how much I like the way your radiator piping came out. Looks great. Sorry about the engine woes.
      -Keith


      zefhix
      There is nothing more common than unsuccessful men with talent-

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Posts
      49
      The same thing just happened to my small block. I had one valve that just wouldnt adjust right. After I had ran it about an hour total and tried adjusting it several times I pulled off the rocker arm, pushrod, and then the lifter.......which was about 1/8" shorter than it shouldve been. So I yanked the motor, and pulled the cam. The lobe with the destroyed lifter riding on it was pretty much round. BUT the good news is that I checked the bearings and they look fine. So just flush your engine and replace the cam and you should be ok.

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Aug 2003
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      8,745
      The oil is filtered before it gets to the crank, your all good. I had a guy bring me a 72 LS5 that he had rebuilt and used a Crane Blueprint cam that went away pretty quick, Turns out Crane had a weak batch. Anyway, he drove it for a good while until it would not run because it was backfiring through the carb. Brought it to me to figure out what was wrong. The cam was totally flat, 100% gone on multiple cylinders. Bearings were perfect.

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      well, i took the pan off, as much as i could today and the bearings looked alright, but i decided i am going to pull the motor and trans tomorrow. take the motor all the way apart, clean everythign, get new bearings if needed, put on a road race oil pan, oil cooler, remote filter, and a new cam and put it all back in! what a pain in the butt! now i need to decide what cam to put in

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Boringville
      Posts
      1,987
      thansk prodigy, but i looked again and even the oil in teh pan had metal in it. the oil filter seemed to be overflown with silver oil, looked like terminator 2. i figure it aint going to be hard to get the motro out now, might as well do it. i bet the bypass opened up and recycled the bad oil

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