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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
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    23

    Default 500+ hp from a pontiac 400?

    I would like to get 500+ hp out of my stock pontiac 400 (67 firebird).
    I would also like to accomplish this without nitrous... any suggestions?

    It does have the 6X heads... in case that helps.

    Also... if any one has taken this route could you give me an estimation on the cost of undertaking a project such as this.

    Thanks for any advise.



  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
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    2,011
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    Seriously a Turbo would be your best bet.

    Next option is a stroker kit. Swap the heads for either Edelbrocks or Kaufmann Racing Aluminum D Ports. 1 3/4 Headers, Edelbrock RPM intake, Holley 870 Avenger, Harland Sharp 1.65 Rockers. Camshaft Comp Cams 274XE if you want hydraulic or something similar. With that combo you should easily hit the mark.

    Sorry but there are very few out there that could massage a set of 6Xs well enough to make an honest 500hp.
    Red Forman: "The Mustang's front end is problematic; get yourself a Firebird."

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Kettering, OH
    Posts
    507

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    Call Kauffman Racing www.krepower.com I have a 400 stroker with E-heads that's pushing in excess of 550 HP. 500 should be very doable.
    1967 Firebird Convert, Fuel Injected 462 ci, TKO 600
    http://1967firebird.atwebpages.com

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Livermore
    Posts
    53

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    Butler or kauffman can help you do that with easy.

    I would advise you in to talking to butler performance
    or kauffman racing engines. I built my pontiac of course that consisted, 455 block bored .030 over, full eagle bottom end, ross pistons, 4 bolt billet steel main caps, milodon windage tray, blue printed SD455 oil pump, total seal rings(file fit to perfection), edlebrock heads fully ported flowing 332 cfm intake and 253 exhaust with pipe, the cam was a 256 262 duration@ 50 with 610intake/619 exhaust, topped of with a vitor junior and 850 demon and it made 630 and 670 foot pounds of torque.
    Then I swaped out the cam for a XE294 and went to a barry grant tri power. we are going to redyno it soon to find out the new numbers. Im sure we lost 40hp


    www.butlerperformance.com
    www.krepower.com

    awhile back car craft did a build on a ford, mopar, chevy, buick, olds and pontiac.
    the pontiac which was a 455 had a set of 87cc performer heads, victor junior, 230/236duration cam @50with not very much lift, and a 750 or 850 holley or demon carb made 501hp and 570 foot pounds I believe. That is still a very docile street motor too.
    PURE PONTIAC POWER

    I kept my goat pontiac powered and im glad. Sorry Bill Howell and Chris Campisi
    Not that I hate chevys but dont like to see them in pre 82 pontiacs.
    1965 GTO convertible
    GM design Award winner 2009
    Still having fun with it too.

    COYBILT INC
    M-F 8-5
    925-454-1965
    10605 Altamont Pass Rd
    Livermore,CA 94551

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Cedar Rapids, IA
    Posts
    678

    Default

    You can make the numbers with a 400 and iron heads but it would not be the most street friendly since you would need a pretty big cam and maybe some port work. The stroker kit would be your best bet with a KRE heads.

    My brother built a stroker 400 for his 68 GTO Conv. He kept it simple with a RA IV cam and ported 6X heads, deamon 825 Carb, RPM intake, dougs headers and 3 inch pipe to the back. It dyno 450+hp and 500+ft/lbs of torque. He has a 125 nos plate just for fun. If the numbers sound to small you should ride in it. The car is a heavy car and even with the 9" slicks the tires just go up in smoke. Its a mid 12s 1/4 mile car and in the 11s with the NOS.

    Two weeks ago he raced his friends 70 chevelle who built a 496 based on the Car Craft 707hp 496. The GTO just beat him by a car length with the help of the NOS. It was more a traction issue but a win is a win. He built a BB 402 2years ago while the GTO engine was being built at the same time. Their was some smack going back and forth. The words "Do you really think a pontiac is going to beat my car" still lingers in the air today. Nothing else was said until 6 months latter when the race took place. After the 402 couldn't even come close to running with the GTO it got sold right away and plans for the 496 started. Don't get me wrong the 496 he has is dam fast but he couldn't hook it up and the GTO got the jump. The Chevelle was comming up fast when my bro hit the NOS. I love a good Pontiac beating an arrogant Chevy story but I'm little biased.
    Some times I'm fast sometimes I'm half-fast

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Montgomery, IL
    Posts
    354

    Default

    By Jim Hand's book and check out the motors listed here. http://www.pontiacstreetperformance....turedcars.html

    I think after reviewing these, you will find that it does not take much in the way of zoomy parts to get a Poncho to deliever as strong or stronger performance than your typical Chevrolet, Ford or Mopar. You can't get too caught up in the HP number as that is largely a function of RPM. As these motors typically do not turn a lot of RPM for a variety of reasons, they do not make good maximum HP numbers. Max HP is not what you are looking for in most street, street/strip or track cars. Maximizing torque over the RPM range that the engine spends most of its time is the objective and the Pontiac engineers did a very good job at that. You will find Q-jets on ported stock manifolds, mildly ported heads and factory spec'd cams used a lot. 3.22-3.42 gears with low stall speeds work well. With the lower RPM range, many of these parts work just fine to deliver 11-12 second performance.

    A lot of these parts are getting pretty scarce or just plain worn out so there are plenty of go-fast aftermarket parts filling the void if you feel the need. My motor uses a stock "N" crank and an ARP studded 2 bolt block, but Crower rods and SRP pistons. Other than that, nothing fancy was needed. I'm guessing I should be at 440hp or so with way more torque than my suspension will ever be able to take advantage of.

    FWIW, I don't think you are going to be happy with that 400/6X combo as you will need to mill the crap out of it to get close to 9:1 compression or run domed pistons. Neither is optimal. Increasing the stroke with either a stoker kit or a 455 crank will allow you to retain the 6X's and get about 9.5:1 or so which is where you want to be. If you are dead set on the 400 and need heads anyway, KRE makes a 65cc aluminum head with nice chambers that would be the best choice for a 400 IMHO. Edelbrocks are 72cc but do not have modern chambers and require round port headers (applications are limited and usually expensive). Eitherway, both Comp and Crane make good hydraulic roller cams that would be the hot set up nowadays. Comp will require a composite distributor gear. Cam choice usually ends up very close to the same regarless of your decision to go 400 or 455+.
    71 Formula, 455 Ported 96s, Crower solid cam, TKO 600, 3:73 Eaton posi. 17" 200s, RE730, 1LE brakes, Koni, Rancho adjustable bars, Hotchkis springs

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Rockford, MN
    Posts
    281

    Default

    Also check out Rock-n-Roll Engineering out in Cali. I haven't decided what to do with my Firebird yet. I've got a relative that just got his '70 GTO 400 stroked up to a 462 and it puts down 714hp on the dyno with some massaged E heads, all motor. The bill was $12K. That's too rich for my blood after all the paint and body work, wheels, suspension and brakes, so I'll just be overhauling my recently rebuilt (and then sat in a barn) 350/th350 combo for now as it'll just be a cruiser and it'll have to do for now.

    Another alternative is Pure Pontiac, also in Cali. They just built a 350 poncho with 462hp with 436ft lb with iron small valve heads that were CNC'd by SD Performance. It's merely a stroker kit with a 428 crank, displacing 383 cubes with a .030 over 350. Single plane, moderate cam and 750cfm 4bbl.

    Not sure I like saying I've got a '383' in a Pontiac since everyone will assume it's a chevy, but the stroker kit is only $1800 and the head work is a grand using my existing block and '47' heads. Hot Rod will be featuring a similar motor with Edelbrock heads and a more aggressive cam shortly built by Pure Pontiac. This a pretty enticing deal, people practically give these motors away.

    Keep us posted on what you do!!


    1969 Firebird, Black, Parchment Arizen interior, Poncho 383 (4" crank), Kauffman heads, TKO600, Moser 12 bolt, Wilwoods, DSE, Speed Tech, Koni, Hotchkis, GW, 18" TTI's, VA Gen IV, etc.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Montgomery, IL
    Posts
    354

    Default

    Before you check out Rock and Roll Engineering, you need to do your homework. Here is a start but you will find comments on just about every pontiac site: http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...ll+engineering



    .
    71 Formula, 455 Ported 96s, Crower solid cam, TKO 600, 3:73 Eaton posi. 17" 200s, RE730, 1LE brakes, Koni, Rancho adjustable bars, Hotchkis springs

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Lodi, Ca
    Posts
    64

    Default

    Skip Rock & Roll. They did my motor, first time anyone besides myself assembled it. Spun rod bearing on startup, after they supposedly dynoed it. Leaked oil out of valley pan. Sent it back on my $. They said they put a new crank in it, I doubt if they rebalanced it. Leaked oil out of the pan, valley and rocker covers when I got it back. Runs good, after I fixed all the leaks, but I don't have a clue what's in it. Never got a dyno sheet or any head flow sheets. All I got is the cam card for the hyd roller cam.
    1973 TA G Machine
    2000 BMW 540 G Sedan

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    526

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Zee
    Before you check out Rock and Roll Engineering, you need to do your homework. Here is a start but you will find comments on just about every pontiac site: http://forums.performanceyears.com/f...ll+engineering
    Yes...PLEASE do your homework before contacting RRE.
    Matt
    1965 Pontiac GTO Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    savannah,ga
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    819
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    Yeah, check 'em out REAL GOOD. they have a totally trashed reputation(self induced) and I have dealt with them personally and I can tell you that even the phone conversations are suspicious. SD Performance is a top notch outfit, I would go to them or Jim LeHart at Central Virginia Machine SHop, CVMSS. Ask Roadrage David about the engine that Jim built for him. For that matter ask anyone that has dealt with Jim LeHart, the will sing his praises, everyone.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Central Florida
    Posts
    291

    Default

    And one more good read is this... this poor guy went through the ringer too.
    http://home.earthlink.net/~rvandegrift/fulper.htm

    I used Butlers for a shortblock on the last Pontiac i did and was very happy.

    BB

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Florida
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    1,975
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    I have also been happy with Jim Butler.
    John
    70 Firebird "The 14 car"

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Southern NJ
    Posts
    526

    Default

    Paul Spotts is also excellent, escpecailly if you're in the NJ/PA area.

    www.spottsperformance.com
    Matt
    1965 Pontiac GTO Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Belle Plaine, MN
    Posts
    1,243
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    Butler did all my stuff, and I got some help from Pure Pontiac to finish it up.

    It was a custom deal (601ci) so everything was oddball...but it works great and I can confidently recommend Butler and Pure Pontiac (Andy) for anything Poncho-related.

    The guy at RRE hates me, so I won't say anything here.

    But, after seeing some of these posts, maybe I don't have to.

    Apparently, he hates a lot of people though...and after meeting a few of them, I'm in really good company. No probs.

    ~SP~
    Scott Parkhurst


    Check out my PT '67 Chevelle Wagon!
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/11929667@N00/sets/72057594110671642/

    2011 Car Craft Real Street Eliminator Winner



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