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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Apr 2005
      Location
      Fife, WA
      Posts
      887

      1st gen rear suspension question!

      We are looking at doing something new for the rear suspension on a 1st Gen Camaro and we need your input! In terms of suspension, how much are you willing to compromise the geometry so it will fit under the stock floor pan? We are talking about doing two options: a triangulated 4-bar and a 3-link. The Tri 4 will fit under the stock sheet metal with only very minimal floor cutting. But what about the 3-link? If we have the tri 4-bar option, would you guys want the 3-link to be a no-compromise piece where more floor mods are required? Or is keeping the stock floor more important than maximizing the suspension’s performance? We are working on some designs now, but it looks like the stock seat will need some mods or you might have to run custom rear seat or no back seat at all. Thanks for your input on this! The more we hear back from you guys, the better this is going to be for the 1st Gen community.




    2. #2
      Join Date
      May 2002
      Location
      Northern California
      Posts
      10,715
      Country Flag: Bosnia Herzegovina
      One thing I hear from the consumers is the need for a bolt in rear unit that the average joe can install in his driveway. Right now airride is the most popular option.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    3. #3
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
      Country Flag: United States
      For me the two key decision drivers (aside from performance) were ease of installation and cost. Performance being equal I would pay a little more for an easier install. Minor floor cutting would be OK for me if it saved money or improved performance. I purchased a G-Bar over the Quadralink because I didn't feel that I could handle the install of the quadralink. In this case I gave up a little performance (hopefully that was all) for an easier install and lower cost.

      This was my first project of this kind. On my next project I would consider something like the Quadralink.

      Don

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Jul 2007
      Location
      Tracy, CA.
      Posts
      1,347
      Personnaly, I would opt for the least amount of fab work / cutting on the car, as an average joe.
      Steve Martin
      67 Camaro RS
      66 Chevelle

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      El Dorado Hills, CA
      Posts
      789
      Country Flag: United States
      I agree with Vince, that's one of the reasons I am looking at the Airbar setup for my 68 as well.... I don't have access to some of the tools needed for fab work anymore since I moved, some of my buddies in San Jose aren't willing to let me borrow their plasma cutter and welder needed for the fab work...
      Brad
      68 Camaro - Procharged LQ4 coming - Currie 9" narrowed, bagged, lays frame, BMW projector HID's LED tails, 18"s, lexus center console, seat warmers, A/C... Mini-tubbing in progress!!

      07 BMW 750li -loaded

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Tucson Arizona
      Posts
      310
      Country Flag: United States
      I agree with the others. Even though my 67 Camaro is a plain jane 67. I would like to have the option of returing her to stock or orginal some day if I wanted to. I will never sell this one!! So any mods that I make it important to me that they can be reversed. The bolt on aspect with little to no fab work and not costing an arm and a leg would be great.

      You speak of minor floor mods. This is where I stand. The DSE mini tub kit from what I know is the maximum I am willing to cut up and I would have to pay to have it done. I have recieved labor quotes in my area to have it done at $600.00-$700.00 plus the kit. Then seat mods have to be done. I would prefure to keep my orginal back seat, moding it is not an issue as I bought one to get mods done to when the tub kit gets done. I have so many other things to do that mini tubs are not in my budget right now.

      Now if I could install your 4 link on my own and get most of the same benifit and only give up wider wheels now that's something to think about. The gains would be worth it and less mods!! Might end up being a little more than mini tubs but that would be OK.

      Joe
      "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn.......
      Then, you have enough horsepower."
      -Mark Donahue

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Posts
      2,544
      Country Flag: United States
      My floors are rust free original. I can't bear the thought of cutting them. So no mini-tubs or anything else that involves deviginizing the metal. The most I am willing to do is weld on extra.
      Red Forman: "The Mustang's front end is problematic; get yourself a Firebird."

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jul 2005
      Location
      Mountain View, CA
      Posts
      9,583
      Country Flag: United States
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.
      If you want more than that you are looking at serious track duty.
      If you are looking at serious track duty you need a cage.
      If you have a cage you don't need a back seat as it's bloody unsafe to have anyone back there with a cage.
      If you don't have a back seat what difference does it make if you have to cut up the pans?

      Again, my opinion, but if you are going so far as to install something more advanced you might as well get the good geometry as well or stick with a leaf setup.
      True T.

      Whats new with Project 1/2-Trak?


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    9. #9
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Missouri
      Posts
      344
      Country Flag: United States
      For me I need the back seat to fit my kids. I would like to see some company develope a torque arm setup for a first gen. That is my wish for the new year.
      Sean James

      69 Firebird - Build Thread
      72 Firebird

    10. #10
      Join Date
      May 2005
      Location
      Socal, Ca
      Posts
      913
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.
      If you want more than that you are looking at serious track duty.
      If you are looking at serious track duty you need a cage.
      If you have a cage you don't need a back seat as it's bloody unsafe to have anyone back there with a cage.
      If you don't have a back seat what difference does it make if you have to cut up the pans?

      Again, my opinion, but if you are going so far as to install something more advanced you might as well get the good geometry as well or stick with a leaf setup.

      +1.

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.
      If you want more than that you are looking at serious track duty.
      If you are looking at serious track duty you need a cage.
      If you have a cage you don't need a back seat as it's bloody unsafe to have anyone back there with a cage.
      If you don't have a back seat what difference does it make if you have to cut up the pans?

      Again, my opinion, but if you are going so far as to install something more advanced you might as well get the good geometry as well or stick with a leaf setup.
      The trouble is where to get that "good leaf setup". When I started researching this all I could find was an abundance of guys stating the ride was too rough, too high, too low etc etc. There were some who said they could design the ultimate leaf springs but these aren't readily for sale to the general public as near as I could tell. I went with the G-Bar on the assumption that it would enable me to more easily dial in the ride and ride height. Time will tell if that assumption was correct since it will be a while before my project is complete.

      Don

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Jul 2001
      Location
      Detroit, Michigan
      Posts
      6,853
      Country Flag: United States
      Craig...two words..."bolt in".

      That's all you need to know.
      1968 Pro-Touring Camaro LS1

      Project: Next Year
      - Start date; June '01
      - Completion; Sometime next year or the year after.....

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Tucson Arizona
      Posts
      310
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.
      If you want more than that you are looking at serious track duty.
      If you are looking at serious track duty you need a cage.
      If you have a cage you don't need a back seat as it's bloody unsafe to have anyone back there with a cage.
      If you don't have a back seat what difference does it make if you have to cut up the pans?

      Again, my opinion, but if you are going so far as to install something more advanced you might as well get the good geometry as well or stick with a leaf setup.
      I would agree with everything you said but..........

      Some of us would like to get function and the great looks of wider rear tire. This does not mean I/we are wanting full on performance track cars. I really like the looks of the 315's in the rear. Now if I could get say a smaller rear tire in the back with out mini tubs and score some benifit of better handling and larger tire then that's a major plus for me.

      Not all of us have track cars, some of us have wanna be track cars that will perform better than stock or even some basic moded stock cars and look cool. That' my goal at least. I could very well be in the minority here though?? I am never going to portray my 67 as Pro-touring, I have said pro-touring style before but most always just tell people I am building a 67 Camaro with modern updates to older parts. If a rear suspension can be part of that within what I stated above it would be great thing for my 67 Camaro project.

      Joe
      "If you can leave black marks on a straight from the time you exit a corner till the time you brake for the next turn.......
      Then, you have enough horsepower."
      -Mark Donahue

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Santa Barbara, Ca
      Posts
      1,135
      Craig,
      I think you have the right idea of offering 2 levels of rear suspension kits. The more aggressive 3 link kit would appeal to the track guy or the guy who is building a "race style" car and doesn't mind changing or removing the back seat. This would be competing with the 3 link kit that is currently being offered by Lateral Dynamics.

      The 4 link idea sounds similar to the DSE Quadralink, which seems to be a well engineered and popular product.

      As for me, I actually just installed one of your GT Sport front subframes in my '67 Camaro (replacing my Wayne Due C5 subframe). My car has a truckarm rear suspension from Hotrods To Hell, and did require minor modifications to the floor in the rear seat area. Thses modifications aren't noticable and to me aren't a big deal. But for this car, I wouldn't want to remove the back seat to install a rear suspension kit. The 4 link kit would be what I would consider between the 2 kits for this car.

      I am really happy that companies such as AME and DSE are making well-engineered products for these cars. Keep up the good work.

      Andy

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Santa Barbara, Ca
      Posts
      1,135
      [quote=Damn True]IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.



      I agree that a well designed leaf spring can perform well. The one thing that I think makes people (at least me) avoid leafs and go with a more modern aproach is this: ride quality. This is something I really value in my cars, and it really is nice to have a car that handles well and doesn't beat you up.

      I can tell you there is a HUGE difference in ride quality between my Hotchkis leaf equipped '68 Camaro and my HTH truckarmed '67. The truckarm car also can handle much more throttle during cornering without snapping the rearend loose. It also has zero wheel-hop, even with 600 hp. I could not get rid of wheel hop in my leaf spring car without using Caltracs. I'm sure I could have gone with a stiffer leaf spring, but then the ride quality would have been even worse.

      This is of course just my opinion and what I've experienced personally with my cars.

      Andy

    16. #16
      Join Date
      May 2002
      Location
      Northern California
      Posts
      10,715
      Country Flag: Bosnia Herzegovina
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.
      Quote Originally Posted by streetk14
      I agree that a well designed leaf spring can perform well. The one thing that I think makes people (at least me) avoid leafs and go with a more modern aproach is this: ride quality. This is something I really value in my cars, and it really is nice to have a car that handles well and doesn't beat you up.

      I can tell you there is a HUGE difference in ride quality between my Hotchkis leaf equipped '68 Camaro and my HTH truckarmed '67. The truckarm car also can handle much more throttle during cornering without snapping the rearend loose. It also has zero wheel-hop, even with 600 hp. I could not get rid of wheel hop in my leaf spring car without using Caltracs. I'm sure I could have gone with a stiffer leaf spring, but then the ride quality would have been even worse.

      This is of course just my opinion and what I've experienced personally with my cars.

      Andy
      I agree with both statements. But people want the best of everything.
      Just wanted to add another plus for link suspension is height adjustability. Another popular request.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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    17. #17
      Join Date
      Jul 2005
      Location
      Mountain View, CA
      Posts
      9,583
      Country Flag: United States
      [quote=streetk14]
      Quote Originally Posted by Damn True
      IMO a good leaf setup is more than enough for the majority.



      I agree that a well designed leaf spring can perform well. The one thing that I think makes people (at least me) avoid leafs and go with a more modern aproach is this: ride quality. This is something I really value in my cars, and it really is nice to have a car that handles well and doesn't beat you up.

      I can tell you there is a HUGE difference in ride quality between my Hotchkis leaf equipped '68 Camaro and my HTH truckarmed '67. The truckarm car also can handle much more throttle during cornering without snapping the rearend loose. It also has zero wheel-hop, even with 600 hp. I could not get rid of wheel hop in my leaf spring car without using Caltracs. I'm sure I could have gone with a stiffer leaf spring, but then the ride quality would have been even worse.

      This is of course just my opinion and what I've experienced personally with my cars.

      Andy
      A solid, tech supported reply Andy. What a concept eh?

      I see your point, and for your application agree, but still assert that a leaf setup is more than enough for most. It just takes more time to get "right".
      True T.

      Whats new with Project 1/2-Trak?


      Follow my wisecracks on Sports, Food, Politics and other BS on Twitter.

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      When they kick out your front door, How you gonna come?
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    18. #18
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Santa Barbara, Ca
      Posts
      1,135
      Quote Originally Posted by MrQuick
      I agree with both statements. But people want the best of everything.
      Just wanted to add another plus for link suspension is height adjustability. Another popular request.

      Something I totally forgot about, Vince. All I have to do is stick a 1/2" drive ratchet in the trunk floor and turn it a few times to lower or raise the rear of my car. That's something that you cannot do with a set of leafs.

      BTW, I got the car mostly finished and drove it around the block with open headers. I think my neighbors all hate me, but the car drove nicely considering I still have to dial in the alignment at work. It's going to my exhaust guy on Wednesday, so I should get some seat time next weekend.

      Thanks again for helping me with those cuts, it couldn't have turned out better.

      Andy

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Mar 2003
      Location
      Kirkland, WA
      Posts
      884
      For me it would either have to be bolt in, or I wouldn't car how much I had to modify the floor. Once I have to cut and fab, who really cares how much?
      James
      -1969 Camaro Sport Coupe
      -1996 Z28
      -2005 Silverado
      Webpage

    20. #20
      Join Date
      May 2002
      Location
      Northern California
      Posts
      10,715
      Country Flag: Bosnia Herzegovina
      Quote Originally Posted by streetk14
      Something I totally forgot about, Vince. All I have to do is stick a 1/2" drive ratchet in the trunk floor and turn it a few times to lower or raise the rear of my car. That's something that you cannot do with a set of leafs.

      BTW, I got the car mostly finished and drove it around the block with open headers. I think my neighbors all hate me, but the car drove nicely considering I still have to dial in the alignment at work. It's going to my exhaust guy on Wednesday, so I should get some seat time next weekend.

      Thanks again for helping me with those cuts, it couldn't have turned out better.

      Andy
      ahhh who needs friendly neighbors anyway's? LOL

      no problem, just let me know if you need anything eles and i'll just swing by. Any excuss to get down to SB.

      Don't forget to lube them screws.

      I agree James, but any kit that is made to bolt in could be welded in and braced if installer chose to. Traditional 3-link no matter how you look at it is going to require some floor surgery.

      Torque arm would qualify as a pure bolt on.
      MrQuick ΜΟΛ'ΩΝ ΛΑΒ'Ε

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