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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
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      542
      Country Flag: United States

      TKO600 install help needed...

      I've finally got my flywheel and clutch issues sorted out and I'm finally ready to bolt up my transmission. For the record I'm using a McLeod scattershield with block-saver plate and I've got both spacer-rings out of my McLeod throwout bearing.

      Problem is that I can't get the trans to fully seat against the bellhousing. I've got exactly 6" from the pilot bearing to the face of the bellhousing, and the same distance from the face of the trans to the end of the input shaft, so I know there is no problem there. I also test-fit the engine and trans with no flywheel or clutch, and everything bolted up fine then.

      I know forcing the trans in the remaining 1/2" with the bolts is a big no-no, so I'm not going that route. My instructions say to push in the clutch to allow the trans to fully seat. Only problem is that my engine is sitting on a stand and I don't have that option. I've tried to move the clutch fork with a 2' pry bar while pushing the trans with my thighs, but it won't budge.

      Anyone have any suggestions? I'd really like to install the engine and trans as one unit.

      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      10,603
      Country Flag: United States
      What did you use to align your clutch?

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Encinitas, CA
      Posts
      219
      I would try taking of the bellhouisng, loosen pressure plate bolts and re-aligningur clutch disc with the alignment tool. Sometimes it takes a few times to get it - the plastic alignment tools work but they are not the mostaccurate devices.
      Jeff Mortenson

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
      Country Flag: United States
      Thanks Jeff - I just tried your advice. On a hunch, while I was at it, I removed the silver McLeod register ring that comes with the scattershield and everything bolts up fine without it. Once it was removed, I tried to slip it over the output shaft and it won't fit up tight against the transmission flange. This tells me that the register is what's holding things up. I know your directions say that I must use the register, so what do I do now?
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
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      15,971
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by MWRitter
      Thanks Jeff - I just tried your advice. On a hunch, while I was at it, I removed the silver McLeod register ring that comes with the scattershield and everything bolts up fine without it. Once it was removed, I tried to slip it over the output shaft and it won't fit up tight against the transmission flange. This tells me that the register is what's holding things up. I know your directions say that I must use the register, so what do I do now?
      Its important that the bellhousing bore is matched perfectly to the transmission bearing retainer. This is what actually aligns the transmission to the engine and is critical for proper shifting and clutch operation. So whatever is happening here needs to be figured out.

      Ide take a set of calipers and measure the transmission bearing retainer. Then measure the bellhousing. The "standard" Ford diameter is a little larger than the "standard" GM diameter. So maybe you got a Ford trans?

      What the length of the input shaft? A GM input should be 6.66" from the transmission face to the tip where it slides into the pilot.

      Andrew

      P.S. I am assuming you are bolting this trans to a GM engine....
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70
      ...Ide take a set of calipers and measure the transmission bearing retainer. Then measure the bellhousing. The "standard" Ford diameter is a little larger than the "standard" GM diameter. So maybe you got a Ford trans?
      It's a little hard to measure with my caliper, but I get 4.677" for the register (hard to measure since it's aluminum and flexes a little), and 4.680" for the transmission bearing retainer.

      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70
      ...What the length of the input shaft? A GM input should be 6.66" from the transmission face to the tip where it slides into the pilot.....
      Unfortunately I've only got a 6" caliper here, but from the face of the transmission to the tip of the input shaft is just over 6.5".

      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70
      ...P.S. I am assuming you are bolting this trans to a GM engine....
      Yes - it's bolting to a 421 Pontiac.


      Based on the fact that everything fits with the register removed, and the slight difference between the trans and the register (4.680 - @4.677 = @.003) am I safe forcing the trans through the register by tightening the 4 mounting bolts?

      Or maybe forcing the retainer itself over the bearing retainer, and then mounting the trans, instead of mounting the retainer in the bellhousing?
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      10,603
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      If you have .003 clearance on the tranny itself, and you can put the tranny all the way in without the register, then you ought to be able to slide the tranny flush without forcing it.

      If not, your clutch is still not aligned, or you may have a problem with the bell alignment. Have you checked the bell?

      In other words, the tranny ought to slide with normal "human" force. Pulling it in with bolts (other than to help with alignment) is a no-no.

      Have you put some lube on the tranny input shaft? Just a bit for the pilot and even less for the splines? That can help too.

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
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      Maybe I'm having trouble putting it into words, but I've determined that the only thing holding up the trans is the additional McLeod register ring that snaps into the bellhousing before the trans is installed. Without the ring, no problem installing. With the ring, I've got .003 too little clearance, and the ring is mandatory. If I "forced" the trans in with the bolts, the only contact would be between the register ring and the trans register. Don't think the clutch would be involved at all.

      That's why I'm thinking of trying to get the bellhousing register ring forced over the transmission bearing retainer (the .003 of missing clearance), rather than snapped into the bellhousing.
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      Ok, I get it. You have .003 interference fit between the tranny and bellhousing adapter.

      If I have that right, then you've got a serious problem. .003 press fit is way too tight. The right thing to do (if all your measurements are correct) is to turn the tranny input register down, or turn the adapter piece. You need .001 slip fit minimum, .002, or .003 is better. So you need to find .004/5.

      Got a friend with a mill or lathe? You need to make them your best friend.

      Or ... perhaps there is a parts mishap somewhere? I'd be surprised if this was the design intent of McLeod.

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      Ok, I get it. You have .003 interference fit between the tranny and bellhousing adapter....
      Exactly what I am seeing. Don't take my .003 measurement as gospel - the bellhousing adapter is thin aluminum and flexes a little when being measured. And since it's round, I don't get exaclty the same measurement all the way around. In fact, part of the problem may be that it's become slightly out of round.

      Anyway, that's definitely the problem and the tranny won't slip in without eliminating some of the interference, or forcing it the last smidge where the ring is interfereing. I sure don't want to machine a brand new $2500 trans - and I'm not sure how you'd machine this ring, it's pretty delicate and aluminum.
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      I sure don't want to machine a brand new $2500 trans - and I'm not sure how you'd machine this ring, it's pretty delicate and aluminum.
      Well ... only the front bearing retainer. 4 bolts and its off to the machine shop. The aluminum adapter ring would have to be machined in a jig designed to hold the outer circumference without distorting (or distorting a known amount that can be accounted for).

      I'd get on the phone Monday morning and chat up your supplier and/or McLeod and see if they've seen this before.

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      ...I'd get on the phone Monday morning and chat up your supplier and/or McLeod and see if they've seen this before.

      jp
      Will do - just trying to get this thing together today. It'll have to wait for another week I guess.

      THanks everyone for the help.
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
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      15,971
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      You’re in good hands with John.

      This is one of the reasons that I am not a big fan of the "modular" bellhousing approach that uses rings and plates to adapt various transmissions to multiple engines. There is just too much probability of machining tolerance stack up that can lead to annoying situations such as this.

      Please let us know what McLeod has to say about all this.

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Posts
      7
      Matt, I went through the same thing when I put a tko 600 in my camaro a while back(Mcleod 8630). The ring would not slip over the trans. At first I thought it was the tko600 at fault but I tried the ring on my muncie and it would not fit. I tried to hone it but its hardened.

      I called Mcleod and spoke to Red. He knew about the problem (seems some were not machined to specs). I sent it back and they sent me another one. The 2nd one also didnt fit. This time I tried it on two other muncies and one saginaw and all were no go. I called mcleod back and Red was not in so I spoke to someone else. He said "we have never had this problem!" and indicated it must be my fault(Funny cause Red and Mike Pell knew about it). He said he would send out another ring. I asked him to verify measurement before sending it out.

      Third one came in and it was perfrect I know you are using a different part # but hope this helps.

      Heres the old post that made me aware of the problem:

      http://www.camaros.net/forums/showthread.php?t=52227

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
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      Thanks Rayzor, that's a huge help! I'm running the 8650 bellhousing (I think). This trans installation has been a huge hassle, but I won't go into details. I've had the trans since before 1/1/06 and it's still not in, but most of that delay was due to an unexpected engine rebuild. Who sandblasts an engine after it's been rebuilt anyway? And then runs it with sand in it?
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      Who sandblasts an engine after it's been rebuilt anyway? And then runs it with sand in it?
      I know an engine builder that ships assembled short blocks in cardboard boxes filled with shipping peanuts.

      jp
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj
      I know an engine builder that ships assembled short blocks in cardboard boxes filled with shipping peanuts.

      jp
      That's how my exhaust system came, as well as my restored tripower setup. Car hasn't been fired yet, so it will be interesting to see what flies out.
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Encinitas, CA
      Posts
      219
      If you would like, I will send you another ring to use.
      Jeff Mortenson

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Southern NJ
      Posts
      542
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by jeffmort
      If you would like, I will send you another ring to use.
      Thanks Jeff - just sent you an email with my address. I'd just like to confirm the ring's size by measurement or a test-fit onto one of your TKOs before you ship. I'd hate to blow another week on a ring that still won't fit!
      Matt
      1965 Pontiac GTO – Spotts 421 Tripower | TKO600 | 3.90s | Vintage AC | Baers | Hotchkis/SPC/BMR Suspension | Intro Vistas | BFG KDW Redlines | 06 GTO Seats

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Encinitas, CA
      Posts
      219
      The ring has been checked - ID is 4.7" and it slipped over the two TKO I tested it on.
      Jeff Mortenson

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