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    1. #21
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      Nov 2003
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      Paradise, Ca
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      A jigsaw, some rubber and some rivets.

      -Matt

      Welders: The only people that think a co-worker catching on fire is funny.


    2. #22
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      Dec 2002
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      Lost Wages, Nevada
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      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      So the $100k question would be how could one install "flappers" onto an aluminum shroud.. hmmm

      Ideas?
      How good do you want it to look ??

      Im up for Matt's idea....... A drill, tin snips, some scrap aluminum strips, rubber for the flaps and a few rivets.

      Or... a plasma cutter, some plastic or aluminum strips, rubber and a few rivets.

      Id take a closer look at a factory unit and then let your imagination run with it.

    3. #23
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      Nov 2003
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      'Course, if we were talking about the "perfect" system (with regard to available technology), the radiator would be leaned forward and sealed to an opening in the grille and below the air damn/splitter. And on the engine side of the radiator, it'd be sealed to outlets in the hood. No air can double back through the radiator, and it wouldn't fill the engine compartment with pressurized and hot air.

      I think that's what you should do Steve.

      Tom, I understand that the fan(s) would hinder airflow at high speed if the blades were not turning, but what if the blades turned with the air going past them, even if the fan motor wasn't running? Do they do that when sealed to the radiator with a shroud like Steves? If they do, what's your guess as to what MPH the fan would reach terminal velocity? I'm sure it's highly dependant on specifics, but what's your general feeling on this?
      -Matt

      Welders: The only people that think a co-worker catching on fire is funny.

    4. #24
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      Anaheim Hills, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Matt@Lateral Dynamics
      'Course, if we were talking about the "perfect" system (with regard to available technology), the radiator would be leaned forward and sealed to an opening in the grille and below the air damn/splitter. And on the engine side of the radiator, it'd be sealed to outlets in the hood. No air can double back through the radiator, and it wouldn't fill the engine compartment with pressurized and hot air.

      I think that's what you should do Steve.

      Tom, I understand that the fan(s) would hinder airflow at high speed if the blades were not turning, but what if the blades turned with the air going past them, even if the fan motor wasn't running? Do they do that when sealed to the radiator with a shroud like Steves? If they do, what's your guess as to what MPH the fan would reach terminal velocity? I'm sure it's highly dependant on specifics, but what's your general feeling on this?
      Gee Matt.. why does that idea sound familiar??? lol

      As for the second part.. the blades do "freewheel" when the motor is not on and the wind is just cruising past. I think the obstruction they were speaking of is the Motor itself.

      Ok.. lets say the fan can move 2000 CFM of air when on.. That would mean that the open area can accomodate that much air. So if your car was going fast enough would the be forced through? After all, doesn't the air want to find the path of least resistance?

      The whole concept would be easy to test.. I've used devices that measure airflow (for testing HEPA filter air flow).. I'm sure they could be used to measure airflow through the fan opening when the fan is off and at various speeds of forward movement. I guess that would answer things once and for all..
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    5. #25
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      Paradise, Ca
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      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      The whole concept would be easy to test.. I've used devices that measure airflow (for testing HEPA filter air flow).. I'm sure they could be used to measure airflow through the fan opening when the fan is off and at various speeds of forward movement. I guess that would answer things once and for all..
      Do eeeet.
      -Matt

      Welders: The only people that think a co-worker catching on fire is funny.

    6. #26
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      Dec 2002
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      Lost Wages, Nevada
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      Dont forget to cup the ball's.....

    7. #27
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      Nov 2003
      Location
      NE Ohio
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      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      So the $100k question would be how could one install "flappers" onto an aluminum shroud.. hmmm

      Ideas?
      Steve,

      This is a technical topic of discussion from time to time and we can only go off of the hundreds of aluminum shrouds on our customers rides that are just fine.

      It really seems to be more of a concern with the more technical-based crowd like us here at PT. Don't get me wrong here guys I am guilty of over analyzing things too, but our all of your customers rides without the flaps do just fine at any speeds.

      We have however decided to accomodate the customers who ask for the flaps on thier custom aluminum shrouds rather than turn them away. We are now installing the rubber flaps on the aluminum shrouds at an extra charge.

      You can easily install the 3-1/4" x 1-7/8" flaps by drilling two 1-1/4" diameter air holes about 3/8" apart using a hole saw & drill. Then you will need to drill three 7/64" holes for the rubber anchors to slide through along the TOP of the air holes. Push the rubber anchors through and your done..... no worries and your mind will be set at ease. The toughest part is to locate the flaps!



    8. #28
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      Jul 2003
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      Anaheim Hills, CA
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      Quote Originally Posted by Richz68
      Steve,

      This is a technical topic of discussion from time to time and we can only go off of the hundreds of aluminum shrouds on our customers rides that are just fine.

      It really seems to be more of a concern with the more technical-based crowd like us here at PT. Don't get me wrong here guys I am guilty of over analyzing things too, but our all of your customers rides without the flaps do just fine at any speeds.

      We have however decided to accomodate the customers who ask for the flaps on thier custom aluminum shrouds rather than turn them away. We are now installing the rubber flaps on the aluminum shrouds at an extra charge.

      You can easily install the 3-1/4" x 1-7/8" flaps by drilling two 1-1/4" diameter air holes about 3/8" apart using a hole saw & drill. Then you will need to drill three 7/64" holes for the rubber anchors to slide through along the TOP of the air holes. Push the rubber anchors through and your done..... no worries and your mind will be set at ease. The toughest part is to locate the flaps!


      I could just buy them from you.. right?? lol

      I'm really not worried about it, but if an issue arises I will start flapping..
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    9. #29
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      Nov 2003
      Location
      NE Ohio
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      289
      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      I could just buy them from you.. right?? lol

      I'm really not worried about it, but if an issue arises I will start flapping..

      Nah.... I'd send you four of them....... you supply the labor. I really don;t think you will need them though. Is that an AFCO radiator?

    10. #30
      Join Date
      Nov 2005
      Posts
      200
      Steve,

      It appears you are using an independent fan controller and I was curious as to why you weren't going to let the ecm control it?

    11. #31
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      Quote Originally Posted by FJB2069
      Steve,

      It appears you are using an independent fan controller and I was curious as to why you weren't going to let the ecm control it?
      It's never a good idea to let the ECU do it. I heard it can begin jerking around with when the fans come on and off. I'm a bit foggy on this since it was explained to me several years ago.

      Mainly there is no good reason to let the ECU do it. It's much more accurate to put a probe in the radiator and use a relay. The relay I have from AFCO is adjustable so I can easily change when the fan comes on without hooking up a laptop and changing the ECU.

      On my '69 I had two probes, one for each fan on my SPAL deal. Worked great.

      Oh, and the ECU gets its water temp from the engine (forward area of the drivers side head). Getting your water temp from the input side of the radiator is a better location.
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    12. #32
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      Aug 2001
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      Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
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      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      It's never a good idea to let the ECU do it. I heard it can begin jerking around with when the fans come on and off. I'm a bit foggy on this since it was explained to me several years ago.

      Mainly there is no good reason to let the ECU do it. It's much more accurate to put a probe in the radiator and use a relay. The relay I have from AFCO is adjustable so I can easily change when the fan comes on without hooking up a laptop and changing the ECU.

      On my '69 I had two probes, one for each fan on my SPAL deal. Worked great.

      Oh, and the ECU gets its water temp from the engine (forward area of the drivers side head). Getting your water temp from the input side of the radiator is a better location.
      Never heard of that. With the aftermarket ECU's they use the ground for the relay, and I like it because I can tell it exactly when to turn on and off. The sensors that ground at a certain temp seem to always be quite a bit off.

      As far as where the ECU gets it's temp from, that would depend on where you put the sender! It can go in the input side of the radiator if you wanted it to.

      Jody

    13. #33
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      609
      If the ECM has the ability to use a pulse width modulation circuit to control fan speed, then that's the best option-ala Ford with their factory Mark VIII fans. Steve, I don't think you'll need flappers either. The shroud offers very little resistance if it's sealed to the radiator fins or side tanks because the entire area inside, even the area not directly open will act as a funnel which will actually aid in the velocity of the air going through which means the fan will have to work less at idle. Spal has a nice option of allowing for independant fan control or dual mode or electric fan with easy tuning changes. If anything, I wouldn't like the amount of ambient heat the aluminum shroud would absorb-acting as a sort of fryer. ABS plastic shrouds are my choice for that reason alone, which is why I still stick to OEM style fans/shrouds-plus nobody makes a better quality fan that the Mark VIII. But, I think you'll be fine with what you're running nontheless. -Jabin
      Gmachinz Sales and Performance
      "updating the level of performance..."

      [email protected]
      *never argue with an idiot-they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience!*

    14. #34
      Join Date
      Jul 2005
      Posts
      20
      Get some flappers from Home Depot - dryer vent flappers, they're spring loaded but should open with slight wind pressure.

    15. #35
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      Asheville, NC
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      87
      As long as you have access to the settings in the ECU why would anyone consider not using the ECU to control the fans?
      -Tables can turn the fans off above a certain speed. The fans can actually reduce the cooling effectiveness at speed.
      -Built in speed control limits current draw. Earlier systems had 2 fans and would control them independently.
      -net result is stable engine coolant temp

      -TC placement is used to monitor engine coolant temp which affects almost every mode of operation, thus it is the parameter the ECU wants to control. As long as ECT is where desired there is no need to know the radiator water temp.

      That being said, most people would never notice the performance differences between the systems. If you don't have ECU software or an adjustable relay just makes sense, the system will still work properly.

    16. #36
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      Sep 2005
      Location
      Michigan
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      7
      Well i just thought I would jump in to the thread
      yes back bresure can be a problem when too much of the core is covered with a aluminum shroud ...at speed it can be like having that much card board in front of the rad ... the air has a hard time pushing trough the fan size hole
      spal has the best design I have seen ...12 rubber pressure relief flaps for air passage at speed .
      see this link
      https://secure.wf-api.com/www.chevel...EX5M8d&sm=8856

      as you will see the core is covered by the fan shroud aprox 400 sq inches .. but the air flows trough at speed .
      Don
      Don Kyte

    17. #37
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      Quote Originally Posted by camcojb
      Never heard of that. With the aftermarket ECU's they use the ground for the relay, and I like it because I can tell it exactly when to turn on and off. The sensors that ground at a certain temp seem to always be quite a bit off.

      As far as where the ECU gets it's temp from, that would depend on where you put the sender! It can go in the input side of the radiator if you wanted it to.

      Jody
      Hey, just what I was told by the guy that did the radiator on my '69.. :shrug: - Something like what I posted. It didn't really bother me so I went with his suggestion.

      The AFCO relay has a dial so I can adjust when the fan comes on.

      As for flaps.. we will see..
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    18. #38
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      Aug 2001
      Location
      Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
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      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      Hey, just what I was told by the guy that did the radiator on my '69.. :shrug: - Something like what I posted. It didn't really bother me so I went with his suggestion.

      The AFCO relay has a dial so I can adjust when the fan comes on.

      As for flaps.. we will see..
      Certainly shouldn't be an issue Steve, as far as not using the computer. I just like to use all the features of these EFI systems!

      Jody

    19. #39
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      Sep 2006
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      Southern Indiana
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      Cooling solutions

      OK Steve just saw the article on the front clip instal very cool. ANYWAY, as a hot rodder, a Certified Master tech and a fella who has built pretty much every car I drive since getting out of school. first of all some people just OVER THINK it.
      After several cooling exercises in my chosen project at the time (most notably was a 350 powered 86 short bed Ranger with FACTORY 2.0 4 cyl rad and it never got over 220 at its hotest .
      Now how did we do it, It had a solid/flex 7 bade fan on it as it was all had but the truck never tried to over heat even with that itty bitty rad. Now tell me your big bad high dollar rads wont provide coling for your car.
      come on guys after owning a few Hbody Monza/Skyhawk trust me i know heat management.
      first of all if you run your fan you are just loading the blades and fan motor too much and can seriously degrade the life of it.
      I had a 3 core rad in my 70 Monte carlo with a high compression 402 and drove it for several years that way, as for the aftermarket fan and aluminum shroud , forget it I ran one and got my 71 very hot going into Nashville on the Power Tour (forget year, but Suzy Bogguss sang I even got a pic with her ,{hottie} ) so that siystem went out with the trash and I got an electric fan from a Grand Am and never had a problem again.
      So here are some very wise words of advice from the front lines of car building and as an experienced cooling system tech (yes i get all the fun stuff at work and have never ahd a car fool me yet):
      First:Mostly you need air flow through the core so super thick cores dont alwyas get it on street cars.
      Second you dont need fans running at road speed anything over 25-30 mph is a waste of energy period and I have proven it on the street for YEAR.
      Third: Use better coolant , you gut will blow $1000 bucks on super high dollar rads anf you have already got products on the market that would suffice, Try Evans Cooling NPG+ coolant. It boils at 369 deg F with no preasure. With a 15 pound cap you get something that wont boil till over 425 drgrees. Trust me it works a friend has a thin wall 283 bored to 4 in and it never over heats with NPG+ but it did with AF/Water.
      Fourth: Why does eveyone make it so hard. Own an Hbody or a V8 Ranger with a 4cyl rad and then tell me it gets hot.
      If you set up a thermostatic control and make it come on approx imately 15 degrees over your thermostat opening and shut of about the T-stat closing it should cool the car perfectlyand if it decides to come on while your driving so be it.
      I see these guys making wild statements but never sem to fix problems with out zillion dollar products that a fella like me so far can afford nor condone.
      to me hot rodders make it too complicated but never understand the basic dynamics of cooling, fuel , ignition, etc.
      The KISS rule provides many good things and you guys seem to forget that.
      Please dont over look basics and throw a credit card at it. Use some basics.
      I have friend who had a 78 Monza, 400 sBC 060 over and never got it to cool even with big name custom built aluminum rad.
      I am not saying the rad wont work nor does the bling factor hurt. But you keep busting your A$$ to fix something thats too easy.
      for the most part everyone wants to keep cars super cool but in fact if you keep your car at or near 195-205 your engine works the fuel it burns much better (not talkin inlet temp ,,engine temp) with less unburned fuel thrown away.
      I build race engines and hate to see guys try to run thier engine at 140 degrees at the line. I build engine to work best at around 180 lowest to 205 highest, ball park I shoot for 195/200 rangethen if you get to the line its just right when tsat opens.Thermally an engine with consistent temp makes most power on average.
      Come on guys this debate just brings patches to light and while they work, why patch it just do what it takes to make it work more efficiently.
      My choice would be a thermostatic fan ,only run it at speed if needed (rpm/speed sensative?) and use Evan NPG + ,a good cap and expansion tank and let her run. Bet it wont over heat especially with that huge rad and a good fan ,properly controled.
      Sorry this was so long but I like to spread my information as best as I can and while I may be long winded writing I hope this adds to your possibilites for cooling.
      Lee Abel
      AFTERMARKET PERFORMANCE

    20. #40
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      Jul 2003
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      Hey, Just back from SEMA

      The AFCO double pass "two on the right" radiator I'm running will now be the STANDARD offering from AFCO and no longer a custom deal.

      So, for what I posted earlier it's about $750 with the fan and shroud or four something for just the radiator. Full polishing is included in those prices (if you're into that sorta thing.. lol)

      Just thought I would let you guys know.
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

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