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  1. #1
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    Default Cooling system for Penny..

    Received my radiator and electric water pump yesterday.. that means my cooling system is complete..

    Attached Images Attached Images  
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2


  2. #2
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    Wow. It would be nice if 35-40% of the RAD wasnt covered. The fan is only needed when at low speeds and/or standing still. The shroud then becomes a restriction from a relevent aero speed, which on our chassis is around 27mph.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by chicane67
    Wow. It would be nice if 35-40% of the RAD wasnt covered. The fan is only needed when at low speeds and/or standing still. The shroud then becomes a restriction from a relevent aero speed, which on our chassis is around 27mph.
    So you would have an issue with this design as well:



    I would have to measure to see how much of the radiator is covered.. which is relative since none of it is really covered (ie, blocked. When the fan isn't spining and your driving at speed I would think enough air would pass through the fan opening to cool the car. Also, if there is a "bit" of back pressue that shouldn't be an issue so long as enough air is moving past through the radiator.

    I guess my point is "so what" if the shroud is a bit of a restriction so long as a suficcient volume of air is moving through the radiator.
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  4. #4
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    Looks nice, how many CFM does the fan pull?
    Gerald

  5. #5
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    Well, if one were to take into consideration of the creation of negative pressure behind the core support...... then no, it wouldnt be too much of a problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
    Also, if there is a "bit" of back pressue that shouldn't be an issue so long as enough air is moving past through the radiator.

    I guess my point is "so what" if the shroud is a bit of a restriction so long as a suficcient volume of air is moving through the radiator.
    The problems with cooling are mainly at low vehicle speeds, which should be considered for street driving. Any restriction beyond the natural core flow resistance can impeade on the systems performance. Unless....... you have introduced something to combat the pressure difference needed to improve air flow thru the core itself. A good example is any late model. There isnt much of an opening in the front body and their implimentation of air dams under the core support and venting the underhood pressures via side exhaust ducting (like that on the C5/6) does wonders for drawing air thru the core. Without this help, they would cook.

    Air flow exposure to the total core area is the key.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
    .......as long as a suficcient volume of air is moving through the radiator.
    For a street chassis, I might agree with this. But, not for a chassis that is going to see any track time. And we know Penny isnt going to be just a street queen.... right ??

  6. #6
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    I don't think there will be a problem. Given that the engine I am running is all aluminum and sheds heat well (besides the fact that LS1 enjoy a higher temp than say a traditional SBC). The fan is ran off a temp sensor inthe radiator so if the temp goes up to far the fan will come on and pull more air through, regarless of the speed of the vehicle.

    Also, I will get a small gain in air flow from the DSE Closeout (more air forced through the radiator rather than up).

    AFCO is not (by far) the only performance radiator company to use shrouds of this type.. If if turns out to be a problem at the track I will come up with another idea. The other benefit is that my water pump is consistent and any speed since it's electric.
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  7. #7
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    In Laymans terms Your fan when running withPenny at say 35 mph or faster will act as a solid object blocking air from passing through your core.
    Look at spals set up it contains "blow off" doors that pop open when the pressure in front of the fans exceeds the pressure behind the fan.
    Nothing says "I built this" better than tool marks and dykem blue..

    Follow my 3 link build. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61592

  8. #8
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    BTW I cant see thumbnails for some reason so I cant see your first pick just the second one
    Nothing says "I built this" better than tool marks and dykem blue..

    Follow my 3 link build. http://www.pro-touring.com/forum/showthread.php?t=61592

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowBuckX
    In Laymans terms Your fan when running withPenny at say 35 mph or faster will act as a solid object blocking air from passing through your core.
    Look at spals set up it contains "blow off" doors that pop open when the pressure in front of the fans exceeds the pressure behind the fan.
    I was wondering if someone was going to make this point,which is important.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowBuckX
    In Laymans terms Your fan when running withPenny at say 35 mph or faster will act as a solid object blocking air from passing through your core.
    Look at spals set up it contains "blow off" doors that pop open when the pressure in front of the fans exceeds the pressure behind the fan.
    I think you diagram makes it look a "bit" worse than it really is since you show ZERO air going through the fan opening. Also, if this occured and the temp climed wouldn't the fan then kick on and pull the air through the area?

    Also, wouldn't this mean that most radiator mfgs (including Ron Davis, AFCO and others) know less about radiator design than you do ;) lol

    Actually I guess that would be "less about shroud design".. Are you saying that I should add rubber "blowout" flaps like on the plastic SPAL fan deal?

    I will call a couple radiator guys I know and pick thier brains on this. Might be a good excuse for a story on cooling theory.. could call it "keeping your cool". Can I use your artwork? :D
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  11. #11
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    I'd be interested in what you find out, Steve. I am about to send my Griffin radiator to them to have a shrould made and attached.
    69 Camaro convertible, 410, M22, 8-pt cage therapy program. SOLD.
    68 camaro - SOLD
    67 Bel Air - New street project with perfect floors, frame and trunk!

  12. #12
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    If my memory serves me correctly, shrouds are required for mechanical fans only and can be considered restrictive otherwise. This is not my opinion but that of many a racer. Fans are only for low speed air flow and are not required above 35 mph. Yes a idle fan is restrictive just put your hand out the window doing 50 mph and you'll get an idea, however I think we are approaching more cooling theory than general purpose as which I think penny will most likely see (track and street). Ideally a radiator will work most effectively when unrestricted airflow touches all the fins.


    All this to say that you will be fine.
    It's shake and bake!!! and i helped!
    Drewco Homes

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
    Also, wouldn't this mean that most radiator mfgs (including Ron Davis, AFCO and others) know less about radiator design than you do ;) lol

    Actually I guess that would be "less about shroud design".. Are you saying that I should add rubber "blowout" flaps like on the plastic SPAL fan deal?

    I will call a couple radiator guys I know and pick thier brains on this. Might be a good excuse for a story on cooling theory.. could call it "keeping your cool". Can I use your artwork? :D
    Now that's funny. I also concur with the "pressure flaps". Call it useful insurance.....

    If you end up doing an article on this, be sure and contact Chet at C&R besides the previously mentioned guru's.

    Allow me to include a statement of a system that beats the shroud theroy. It was a system I worked up with one of our own:

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlC
    I'd suggest using the in-tank cooler design. If for no other reason, it makes packaging significantly easier than an inline type.

    If you are planning on spending some quality time on a road coarse a cooler will make your time at the track much more enjoyable.

    My C&R dual is in the $450-500 range. It a pretty serious piece. Add on $100 for brackets and welding, $150 for a Mark VIII fan, and $125 for a DC conroller. In August at Buttonwillow, with ambient temps of 104*, it never broke 185*. Asthetically it's not 100%, but functionally it's hard to beat.

    You may also want to consider an oil temperature thermostat. CV has a really nice one. Check the archives for some great discussion on this topic.
    And I believe Andrew's comment, sum's it up nicely.

    No matter what Steve, your approach to the build of Penny is uber bad @ss.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by harshman
    If my memory serves me correctly, shrouds are required for mechanical fans only and can be considered restrictive otherwise. This is not my opinion but that of many a racer. Fans are only for low speed air flow and are not required above 35 mph. Yes a idle fan is restrictive just put your hand out the window doing 50 mph and you'll get an idea, however I think we are approaching more cooling theory than general purpose as which I think penny will most likely see (track and street). Ideally a radiator will work most effectively when unrestricted airflow touches all the fins.


    All this to say that you will be fine.
    True but wouldn't the fan blades (when the fan is off) be less of a restriction since they move/spin (unlike your hand out the window.)

    Remember, Penny is NOT a race car.. she is a street car that will hit open track days and hopefully a few open road deals.

    In any event it's a good discussion
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  15. #15
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    Oh, will the fact that I am running an oil cooler take some pressure off the coolant system? I would think so since cooler oil would equal a cooler engine and thus cooler coolant..
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  16. #16
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    you forgot about the motor.
    It's shake and bake!!! and i helped!
    Drewco Homes

  17. #17
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    My 2cents....

    Spal's not the only one to use flappers. Check out the 4th-gen V8 cars. They have the flaps. GM would not put them there unless there was a reason.

    And another one of those reasons? Reliabilty. If the car has to rely on the fan to keep it cool at constant-street and freeway speeds it will lead to significantly reduced fan and alternator life. A few rubber panels are a lot cheaper than replacing expensive electrical components.

    Mine has a LOT of cooling capacity.
    VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com
    Carl Casanova's 1968 Camaro

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by CarlC
    My 2cents....

    Spal's not the only one to use flappers. Check out the 4th-gen V8 cars. They have the flaps. GM would not put them there unless there was a reason.

    And another one of those reasons? Reliabilty. If the car has to rely on the fan to keep it cool at constant-street and freeway speeds it will lead to significantly reduced fan and alternator life. A few rubber panels are a lot cheaper than replacing expensive electrical components.

    Mine has a LOT of cooling capacity.
    So the $100k question would be how could one install "flappers" onto an aluminum shroud.. hmmm

    Ideas?
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

  19. #19
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    Scissors
    It's shake and bake!!! and i helped!
    Drewco Homes

  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by harshman
    Scissors




    lol
    "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

    See Bad Penny run the cones: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GUPPIX-92U

    2000 SS, 1969 LS1, and 1968 LS2 Camaros
    Oh, and a 1970 Fairlane just to show I could...

    See my cars here: www.fquick.com/steve1968ls2

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