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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas, NV
      Posts
      251

      Martz, Fatman, CA Chassisworks... TOO MANY CHOICES!

      Ok, semi-cliff notes version. I'm deploying to Pakistan in January for 4 months, so i'll be coming back with quite a bit of cash saved up and i'll be looking to do front suspension and brakes for the 67. I'm looking at all these companies that make complete aftermarket front subrames for the first gens and i'm left scratching my head (which really is not all that unusual for me ). Which one do I choose? I thought I might enlist your guys' opinions since there's a lot more knowledge floating around over here than I have.



      The one I have really been looking at is the complete CA Chassisworks subframe on page 603 of the Classic Industries catalog for only $1395. Looks like it would be a really good setup. NO I am not looking for a best-of-the-best $4000 setup. If I was, i'd go with the Wayne Due stuff. Instead, i'm just looking for something that will drastically improve the handling/braking of that over-sized toaster oven I have sitting in the garage.

      Yes, I have done a couple of searches both in the new forum, and on the old one as well for opinions on the different setups. But apparently I need to go through some sort of remedial search training, because surprisingly, I didn't really get that many results that contained the info I was looking for.

      I suppose something else I should mention is this car WILL be daily driven once it is running, but will see quite a bit of road course and open road racing. I can deal with a little bit of a harsh ride and road noise if it will give me better handling/braking. I'm still young... I have to beat the hell out of myself somehow.

      Thanks in advance for any input you folks may have, even if it's just directing me to a thread I may have missed.
      Doug
      67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



      "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Sep 2001
      Location
      Pasadena, Ca.
      Posts
      769
      Classic ind. needs to clearify their descriptions it sounds like. that 1395.00 is for the frame ONLY. you will still need all the rest of the parts from Chassisworks, as only their stuff will fit their frame. look at more like 5500.00 all said and done( brakes,rack,coilovers,A-arms,sway bar,sub cons,steering linkage,motor mounts) and they only have one setup, there is no entry level frame. look at their web site CW its under "camaro clip" on the left.
      If I was to do it now.. I'd rebuild my stock frame with the DSE coilover kit, tubular A-arms, huge baer 14's,and maybe look into a rack and pinion setup ( flaming river is coming out with a sweet looking setup soon) for half the money I've spent on the CW frame.
      just my 2 cents/5500 bucks worth
      good luck in Pakistan, be safe.
      Steve N
      69 Camaro RS, LT1/T56, Chassisworks front clip,Fab 9 rear. DSE deep tubs. 18x9 & 18x12 Welds, 265 & 335 Pilots

      Video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NGU0o7oJzE

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas, NV
      Posts
      251
      Hmmm, damn, good to know. I thought that price for that front clip sounded a little low. They show the complete subframe sitting there, with the same part number listed next to it and show it being only $1395. They SERIOUSLY need to revise that.

      Beautiful car you got there BTW. Makes me want to get my LT1/T56 setup done even quicker.
      Doug
      67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



      "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Aug 2003
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      8,745

      My opinion in order

      #1 Wayne Due
      #2 Chris Alston
      #3 modified stock
      #4 Martz

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      VA
      Posts
      281

      due

      Anyone have any idea what the total is on the wayne due setup? I keep playing with the idea of getting one but have a had time b/c I don't know the total cost. Also what size tire will fit on the front of that thing? 275?

      The chassis works frame only is 1395.. The suspension package is 1408, or something close to that. I asked a while back and thats what i was told. It is sort of confusing in the catalogs/online.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Las Vegas, NV
      Posts
      251
      Yeah, I was wondering about the Wayne Due cost myself. I am hoping Tyler chimes in here since he's using that stuff on the 50/50. I'll call him up later and bug him about it if he doesn't.
      Doug
      67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



      "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Aug 2001
      Location
      Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
      Posts
      2,995
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms
      #1 Wayne Due
      #2 Chris Alston
      #3 modified stock
      #4 Martz

      I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

      Jody

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jun 2002
      Location
      Long Island, NY
      Posts
      11,320
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by camcojb
      I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

      Jody
      I agree 100% with Jody, and Brian.

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Dec 2004
      Location
      Atlanta, Ga.
      Posts
      108
      Quote Originally Posted by camcojb
      I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

      Jody


      Thanks Jody...

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Jul 2003
      Location
      Anaheim Hills, CA
      Posts
      11,967
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms
      #1 Wayne Due/21st Century Streetmachine
      #2 Chris Alston
      #3 modified stock
      #4 Martz
      #5 Heits
      I fixed your list ;)

      I have been very impressed with what I have learned about 21st Century's subframe. It has the ability to be adjusted for instant center and the design looks very good.

      So now there are even more choices

      Also, when you say Wayne Due do you mean the C5, C4 or Morrison subframe?

      To be honest I am a huge fan of modified stock subframes..
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Jan 2004
      Location
      NW Suburbs, Chicago
      Posts
      560
      I just got Wayne Dues subframe... the C4 setup though, and just to get all the parts, bare, no work done to them, bare steel frame, etc etc it ran me about $3700... I looked closely at all the companies and im very glad i went with Wayne. He is a great guy to deal with and extreemly helpful. Im not sure what his C5 stuff goes for, that Tyler might be able to help with, if not just give Wayne a call..

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      VA
      Posts
      281
      3700... is that everything you need with or without brakes?

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Jan 2004
      Location
      NW Suburbs, Chicago
      Posts
      560
      I just got the standard C4 brakes... I plan on upgrading later when i have the money to do so. and that is everything you will need for the suspension... including coil overs, C4 parts, and i got a manual rack so i dont know the idfference between that and the power rack in price.

      that however is a bare steel frame and un touched C4 parts... you would have to paint of powdercoat the frame and clean up the C4 parts yourself...

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      Santa Barbara, Ca
      Posts
      1,135

      wayne due cost

      I'm in the middle of a wayne due subframe conversion for my 68 Camaro. I can tell you what I have into mine. It's about $2400 for the bare subframe & sway bar. I chose to upgrade to a speedway engineering 1 1/4" splined bar for about $300 more. Add a couple hundred for powdercoating and a couple more for freight, and you are over $3000 already. I got my C4 suspension from a vette salvage yard for $500, in good condition. You might be able to find it cheaper, but Wayne seemed to think that I got a deal. I also bought new balljoints, and am going to upgrade to del a lum bushings. I still need to get coilovers, a power rack from AGR, and an aftermarket steering column. I'll probably have over $5000 into it when it's all said and done, but it can be done a lot cheaper. It could probably be done for $3500 if you go about it right (and don't mind using original used parts). But, Wayne is a great guy to deal with, and IMOP, he makes the best stuff out there. Plus, if you are planning to keep your car forever (which I am), I'd rather pay a little more and be happy with the results.
      -Andy

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Posts
      185
      Steve N 69 69 69, was it only the cost that you mentioned you'd go with the DSE setup if you had it to do over again? Are you happy with the perfomance of your ChassisWorks setup?

      I got my front suspension apart now ( again ), and I'm considering just going with the Speed Tech Upper and lowers with the Guldstrand mod. It's definately cheaper. Also, I am wondering if the handling of a Wayne Due Chassis is that much greater? I noticed Speed Tech has some nice C5 Brake Kits as well.

      So, to sum things up, Im' thinking of going with Speed Tech Arms, the QA1 Coilovers with a custom Global West Spring Rate ( maybe 550 - 600 lbs ) and the C5 brake kit for under $2500...

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Oct 2003
      Location
      Arvada, Co
      Posts
      2,119
      Country Flag: United States
      I agree with Jody. I am glad someone else thinks that. Do not discount a modified stock frame. The only advantage, other than they they look damn cool, that some aftermarket frames have over a mod stock is the ability to get wider tires in the front. That is a big plus though.

      I am using the GW uppers and stock lowers. Also, the DSE coilover conversion put into the Gulstrand location, not DSE's and Wilwood 6 piston brakes. I just ordered the Koni's from DSE as well. With all that I have around 3200 and it measured a damn good camber cruve during moc-up. Once it is put back together, I hope by SEMA, I will get the rest of the front susp geometry measurements and see what it looks like at ride height.

      I guess the moral is do not discount a well updated stock sub.
      Brian

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Feb 2004
      Location
      McKinney, Texas
      Posts
      213

      Not happy with my Wayne Due's

      The first problem was with the motor mounts, they my have move when the frame was being welded, but were not recheck for accuracy. They were not a major issue since deciding to move the engine rearward and use C5 engine mounts. The next issue is where the LCA rear bushing connects to the chassis. It is off from one side to the other by 1/2". Wade spoke with Kyle Tucker at Good Guys when they were in the Dallas area recently and Kyle told Wade he has experinced similar issues with Wayne Due chassis. Now I will have to pay Wade to correct the problems, because I am too for along to send it back for correction.

      I am NOT bashing Wayne, but he needs to have these issues brought to his attention and work on his Quality Control before having his work go out the door.
      Kirt
      1969 Camaro 427ci LS1 Twin Turbo
      Wade's Rod & Custom

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Posts
      38
      Quote Originally Posted by baz67
      I agree with Jody. I am glad someone else thinks that. Do not discount a modified stock frame. The only advantage, other than they they look damn cool, that some aftermarket frames have over a mod stock is the ability to get wider tires in the front. That is a big plus though.

      I am using the GW uppers and stock lowers. Also, the DSE coilover conversion put into the Gulstrand location, not DSE's and Wilwood 6 piston brakes. I just ordered the Koni's from DSE as well. With all that I have around 3200 and it measured a damn good camber cruve during moc-up. Once it is put back together, I hope by SEMA, I will get the rest of the front susp geometry measurements and see what it looks like at ride height.

      I guess the moral is do not discount a well updated stock sub.
      Brian
      There is another benefit to not using the stock subframe... and that is typically weight. I got the Martz chassis, and I shaved about 200lbs off the nose of the car. Now, I am not recommending the Martz chassis because it is not DOT approved, and Gary is not a nice person to work with. I made the mistake of getting this, and I am not paying the price of it. I would put Fatman chassis up there with WD too. That chassis is DOT approved, it is lighter than stock, comes with all the modern stuff, and costs about $4000 for the turn key unit. I have about $4100 in my Martz front end. That includes everything you need to drive with. The ChassisWorks cost more. The quote in the mag is simply the chassis. Call them and they will tell you a turn-key unit costs over $4500 + shipping.

      The problem with modifying your stock chassis is you really can't put in all the stuff these after market chassis have on them for the same price. Rack and pinion, tubular control arms, coil overs, disk brakes, etc. $1000 for the rack conversion, $600 a piece for tubular control arms, DSE kit is I don't know how much, and then the coil over shocks... ouch.

      But make Martz your very last option. You don't want to have to deal with him.

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      La La Land, CA
      Posts
      2,240
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by clinthart
      There is another benefit to not using the stock subframe... and that is typically weight. I got the Martz chassis, and I shaved about 200lbs off the nose of the car. Now,

      The problem with modifying your stock chassis is you really can't put in all the stuff these after market chassis have on them for the same price. Rack and pinion, tubular control arms, coil overs, disk brakes, etc. $1000 for the rack conversion, $600 a piece for tubular control arms, DSE kit is I don't know how much, and then the coil over shocks... ouch.
      You are on a roll here. Do you have the weight of the stock frame you removed? What is the weight of the Marts frame that replaced it? You really think you lost over 200 lbs with that frame? I don't think it could have been much more than 90-110 lbs, but I'm a skeptic.

      The second part of your statement is also a bit misleading. You need to realize that the parts you just mentioned are not needed to out handle a Martz or Fatman clip. You don't need tubular control arms to get the job done, and rack and pinion is such a waste of money with the new 670 power steering boxes on the market today. I'd be willing to bet you wouldn't be able to tell that we have a steering box in one of our stock frames, since it feels and responds exactly like a R&P. Coil over shocks also are not a requirement. Take a long look at CarlC's website to see how to make a landrum spring adjuster act like a coil over.
      I'll just say that we could outfit a stock frame with no tubular control arms, no rack and pinion, and no coil over shocks, and out handle a Martz/Fatman frame, for a fraction of the price.

      Tyler

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Aug 2003
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      8,745
      Quote Originally Posted by TitoJones
      You are on a roll here. Do you have the weight of the stock frame you removed? What is the weight of the Marts frame that replaced it? You really think you lost over 200 lbs with that frame? I don't think it could have been much more than 90-110 lbs, but I'm a skeptic.

      Tyler
      Dude, he might have lost close to 200lbs. It's pretty damn light! Flexible as hell, but pretty damn light. Look at it, there is nothing there.

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