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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default Martz, Fatman, CA Chassisworks... TOO MANY CHOICES!

    Ok, semi-cliff notes version. I'm deploying to Pakistan in January for 4 months, so i'll be coming back with quite a bit of cash saved up and i'll be looking to do front suspension and brakes for the 67. I'm looking at all these companies that make complete aftermarket front subrames for the first gens and i'm left scratching my head (which really is not all that unusual for me ). Which one do I choose? I thought I might enlist your guys' opinions since there's a lot more knowledge floating around over here than I have.

    The one I have really been looking at is the complete CA Chassisworks subframe on page 603 of the Classic Industries catalog for only $1395. Looks like it would be a really good setup. NO I am not looking for a best-of-the-best $4000 setup. If I was, i'd go with the Wayne Due stuff. Instead, i'm just looking for something that will drastically improve the handling/braking of that over-sized toaster oven I have sitting in the garage.

    Yes, I have done a couple of searches both in the new forum, and on the old one as well for opinions on the different setups. But apparently I need to go through some sort of remedial search training, because surprisingly, I didn't really get that many results that contained the info I was looking for.

    I suppose something else I should mention is this car WILL be daily driven once it is running, but will see quite a bit of road course and open road racing. I can deal with a little bit of a harsh ride and road noise if it will give me better handling/braking. I'm still young... I have to beat the hell out of myself somehow.



    Thanks in advance for any input you folks may have, even if it's just directing me to a thread I may have missed.
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."


  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2001
    Location
    Pasadena, Ca.
    Posts
    755

    Default

    Classic ind. needs to clearify their descriptions it sounds like. that 1395.00 is for the frame ONLY. you will still need all the rest of the parts from Chassisworks, as only their stuff will fit their frame. look at more like 5500.00 all said and done( brakes,rack,coilovers,A-arms,sway bar,sub cons,steering linkage,motor mounts) and they only have one setup, there is no entry level frame. look at their web site CW its under "camaro clip" on the left.
    If I was to do it now.. I'd rebuild my stock frame with the DSE coilover kit, tubular A-arms, huge baer 14's,and maybe look into a rack and pinion setup ( flaming river is coming out with a sweet looking setup soon) for half the money I've spent on the CW frame.
    just my 2 cents/5500 bucks worth
    good luck in Pakistan, be safe.
    Steve N
    69 Camaro RS, LT1/T56, Chassisworks front clip,Fab 9 rear. DSE deep tubs. 18x9 & 18x12 Welds, 265 & 335 Pilots

    Video clip http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3NGU0o7oJzE

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Hmmm, damn, good to know. I thought that price for that front clip sounded a little low. They show the complete subframe sitting there, with the same part number listed next to it and show it being only $1395. They SERIOUSLY need to revise that.

    Beautiful car you got there BTW. Makes me want to get my LT1/T56 setup done even quicker.
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Orlando, FL
    Posts
    8,767

    Default My opinion in order

    #1 Wayne Due
    #2 Chris Alston
    #3 modified stock
    #4 Martz

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    286

    Default due

    Anyone have any idea what the total is on the wayne due setup? I keep playing with the idea of getting one but have a had time b/c I don't know the total cost. Also what size tire will fit on the front of that thing? 275?

    The chassis works frame only is 1395.. The suspension package is 1408, or something close to that. I asked a while back and thats what i was told. It is sort of confusing in the catalogs/online.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Yeah, I was wondering about the Wayne Due cost myself. I am hoping Tyler chimes in here since he's using that stuff on the 50/50. I'll call him up later and bug him about it if he doesn't.
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    NW Suburbs, Chicago
    Posts
    560

    Default

    I just got Wayne Dues subframe... the C4 setup though, and just to get all the parts, bare, no work done to them, bare steel frame, etc etc it ran me about $3700... I looked closely at all the companies and im very glad i went with Wayne. He is a great guy to deal with and extreemly helpful. Im not sure what his C5 stuff goes for, that Tyler might be able to help with, if not just give Wayne a call..

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    VA
    Posts
    286

    Default

    3700... is that everything you need with or without brakes?

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    NW Suburbs, Chicago
    Posts
    560

    Default

    I just got the standard C4 brakes... I plan on upgrading later when i have the money to do so. and that is everything you will need for the suspension... including coil overs, C4 parts, and i got a manual rack so i dont know the idfference between that and the power rack in price.

    that however is a bare steel frame and un touched C4 parts... you would have to paint of powdercoat the frame and clean up the C4 parts yourself...

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Santa Barbara, Ca
    Posts
    977

    Default wayne due cost

    I'm in the middle of a wayne due subframe conversion for my 68 Camaro. I can tell you what I have into mine. It's about $2400 for the bare subframe & sway bar. I chose to upgrade to a speedway engineering 1 1/4" splined bar for about $300 more. Add a couple hundred for powdercoating and a couple more for freight, and you are over $3000 already. I got my C4 suspension from a vette salvage yard for $500, in good condition. You might be able to find it cheaper, but Wayne seemed to think that I got a deal. I also bought new balljoints, and am going to upgrade to del a lum bushings. I still need to get coilovers, a power rack from AGR, and an aftermarket steering column. I'll probably have over $5000 into it when it's all said and done, but it can be done a lot cheaper. It could probably be done for $3500 if you go about it right (and don't mind using original used parts). But, Wayne is a great guy to deal with, and IMOP, he makes the best stuff out there. Plus, if you are planning to keep your car forever (which I am), I'd rather pay a little more and be happy with the results.
    -Andy

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Posts
    173

    Default

    Steve N 69 69 69, was it only the cost that you mentioned you'd go with the DSE setup if you had it to do over again? Are you happy with the perfomance of your ChassisWorks setup?

    I got my front suspension apart now ( again ), and I'm considering just going with the Speed Tech Upper and lowers with the Guldstrand mod. It's definately cheaper. Also, I am wondering if the handling of a Wayne Due Chassis is that much greater? I noticed Speed Tech has some nice C5 Brake Kits as well.

    So, to sum things up, Im' thinking of going with Speed Tech Arms, the QA1 Coilovers with a custom Global West Spring Rate ( maybe 550 - 600 lbs ) and the C5 brake kit for under $2500...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2001
    Location
    Wilton, CA. (Sacramento)
    Posts
    3,002
    Country Flag: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ProdigyCustoms
    #1 Wayne Due
    #2 Chris Alston
    #3 modified stock
    #4 Martz

    I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

    Jody

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Arvada, Co
    Posts
    2,123
    Country Flag: United States

    Default

    I agree with Jody. I am glad someone else thinks that. Do not discount a modified stock frame. The only advantage, other than they they look damn cool, that some aftermarket frames have over a mod stock is the ability to get wider tires in the front. That is a big plus though.

    I am using the GW uppers and stock lowers. Also, the DSE coilover conversion put into the Gulstrand location, not DSE's and Wilwood 6 piston brakes. I just ordered the Koni's from DSE as well. With all that I have around 3200 and it measured a damn good camber cruve during moc-up. Once it is put back together, I hope by SEMA, I will get the rest of the front susp geometry measurements and see what it looks like at ride height.

    I guess the moral is do not discount a well updated stock sub.
    Brian

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    McKinney, Texas
    Posts
    213

    Default Not happy with my Wayne Due's

    The first problem was with the motor mounts, they my have move when the frame was being welded, but were not recheck for accuracy. They were not a major issue since deciding to move the engine rearward and use C5 engine mounts. The next issue is where the LCA rear bushing connects to the chassis. It is off from one side to the other by 1/2". Wade spoke with Kyle Tucker at Good Guys when they were in the Dallas area recently and Kyle told Wade he has experinced similar issues with Wayne Due chassis. Now I will have to pay Wade to correct the problems, because I am too for along to send it back for correction.

    I am NOT bashing Wayne, but he needs to have these issues brought to his attention and work on his Quality Control before having his work go out the door.
    Kirt
    1969 Camaro 427ci LS1 Twin Turbo
    Wade's Rod & Custom

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Jun 2002
    Location
    Long Island, NY
    Posts
    11,353
    Country Flag: United States

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by camcojb
    I would move the modified stock (at least with DSE a-arms, bushings, coil over conversion, and steering box) up to the top with WD as far as handling goes.

    Jody
    I agree 100% with Jody, and Brian.
    Ralph
    '68 Camaro l Project Fantom l Street Fighter
    '02 Corvette Z06 l Quicksilver Metallic l Black Int.
    '01 Camaro SS l Black l M6 l Build No. 171 l SOLD!
    '96 Tahoe Sport l 2 Door l Black l Z71 l SOLD!

    "I bleed, sir, but not killed"

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Wow, I just got back from a weekend riding quads at the Armagosa Dunes, and didn't expect to find this much more feedback in this thread. Thanks VERY much to everyone for the added input. Right now, i'm swinging toward going with the DSE modified frame, as I don't really have the uber-$$$ it takes to purchase a WD setup, even as much as i'd love to get it. But please, anyone else that would like to offer up any more info, i'd be more than happy to listen to what you have to say!
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Just out of sheer curiosity.... what are your guys' opinions on using a modified stock front subframe with Wayne's rear IRS kit?
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

  18. #18

    Default

    i went from hotchkis springs/sway bar /bisteins to the dse kit.the hotchkis stuff was fine on the street but suffered from extreme understeer on track.the change to the dse kit was remarkable.my first track day with the new setup was great. at lunch we had a drivers meeting and the instructor said'we are going to move a couple of the faster cars up into a higher group-that red camaro,and the porsche'.one of the best days of my life.i opted for and recommend the koni 30 series shocks.for street only use there will be no gain with any kit over a rebuilt stock front suspension,maybe with guldstrand mod and a quality spring.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    La La Land, CA
    Posts
    2,231
    Country Flag: United States

    Default

    I'd place the frame options as follows:

    C.A.R.S. full race frame
    Wayne Due C5 frame (requires engine setback to clear rack)
    DSE mod'd stock frame
    Wayne Due C4 frame
    Martz
    Chassis Works
    Stock with Guldstrand

    Obviously the first 2 options are mucho $$, but well worth it in the end. It seems to me there are those who have the Wayne Due stuff, and those who wish they had it.
    I'd recommend the DSE frame to you Doug, as we can do it here in my shop. We already have the jig and experience, so it will be on track with what you are going for.
    I can also see no problems with the DSE/WD IRS combo.
    Tyler

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    Location
    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts
    251

    Default

    Thanks for chiming in Tyler! I was hoping you'd see this and lend your input. Mind if I drop by the shop some time to yack with you (assuming you're still in the old "LVF" shop)? If so, when are you usually there? Besides, I gotta check out the 50/50, if you'd be so gracious.
    Doug
    67 Camaro - Project: Retribution



    "Honda: The most efficient means of converting gasoline into noise without the side effect of horsepower."

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