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    Results 1 to 11 of 11
    1. #1
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Posts
      41

      The big picture: getting rid of that 35-year-old handling

      By way of introduction, I just purchaed my first Camaro, a 1969 RS/SS 396 that's by and large original... and it drives and handles like it.

      While I have another 1969 car (a full-size Canadian Pontiac), its a much "tighter" car, probably because its full-frame and I've redone the suspension (largely original, but with Polygraphite).

      I'm used to newer cars, though: I drive a CL600 and a new M3. While getting the car to those standard is probably unrealistic, I would like to transform the handling of the car to more modern characteristics.

      While bigger brakes and better rims seem to be the standard first steps, I'd like to get feedback on how, without completely swapping in a more modern suspension, I can significantly improve the road manners and handling of a '69 Camaro.

      I do plan to mini-tub the car, so that does limit the options somewhat. But if you guys, the experts, tell me to go to rack-and-pinion, stiffen the unibody with subframe connectors, and so on, that's the type of information I'm looking for (though I made up those examples).

      So, put more simply, how I can most dramatically improve the handling, and in what order?

      Many thanks in advance for your learned wisdom :-)



    2. #2
      Join Date
      Jul 2003
      Location
      Anaheim Hills, CA
      Posts
      11,967
      Country Flag: United States
      I don't have too long.. but my first (quick) suggestion would be to get the book by Tony Huntimer that talks about giving your GM the pro-touring treatment..

      Find out more here: http://www.racehome.com/books.htm

      You can do a LOT of improve the handling of your car and still retain the stock subframe and rear leaf springs.

      Also, search through this section, TONS of good info here..
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Jul 2003
      Location
      Anaheim Hills, CA
      Posts
      11,967
      Country Flag: United States
      Oh, and welcome to the site
      "A ship in port is safe, but that's not what ships are built for."

      1968 Track Rat Camaro:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGHJ5c1yLIo&t=2s

      1971 Chevelle Wagon with a few mods:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBVPR3sRgyU

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      957
      There's some really good news, and then there's some not so good news. First, basically anything you do to the car will have a positive impact on the handling if you don't choose things completely in the dark, there is significant room for improvement with these cars. Doing some searches on various issues/products, etc will go a long way in here if you devote a bit of time. That's the good news.

      Bad news? Opinions. And product offerings that aren't nearly as capable as the marketing rhetoric will lead you to believe, despite faithful followers of a given product that have been direct witness/recipient of the above statement. In other words, making something that is really, really bad "better," with a cool product which you might pay a little money for, or a lot, is pretty easy, actually. But, making the same car "good," or better, excellent, well, that's a whole different story. There's a heck of a lot of different stuff out there for your car, it happens to be the best supported car in terms of handling alternatives on the market, but boy is it hard to sort through it all.

      Some of the magazines (one in particular) are starting to test cars in a small battery of relevant tests that should give an indication of handling prediction, I know for a fact that there is an informative article coming out that outlines the various types of rear suspension available with an overview of pro's and con's. A good thought would be to stack each of the competitor's up in a head to head, but honestly, that won't likely happen. We're up for it, but to make such a deal work, without excuses, etc, is terribly difficult due to all of the issues you can imagine. If possible, grab a ride in a car that you think is close to what you want, and get a good honest feel for what you like, and don't, and then query for specifics regarding that particular aspect. There is a ton of great input available here, but asking a relatively open ended question is going to get you a lot of noise, it'll be hard to sift through.

      Sorry to have not been more specific,
      M

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Posts
      41
      Quote Originally Posted by Steve1968LS2
      handling of your car and still retain the stock subframe and rear leaf springs.
      I've been searching and ordered the referenced book to read, but any jumpstart info on specifically helpful changes would be very welcome!

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      Central CA USA
      Posts
      6,108
      Country Flag: United States
      How good do you want it to handle? Is cornering power more important than ride quality?

      What will you do with the car? Autocross or open track events, or street only?
      How stiff a ride can you handle and how bad are the roads you will drive on?
      Do you want a really low car or more stock height?
      Are 17" or 18" wheels OK or do you like a more vintage looking wheel size?

      I have some suspension info on my web page below.
      67 Camaro RS that will be faster than anything Mary owns.

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
      Posts
      5,821
      Country Flag: United States
      ..... as do I.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Dec 2005
      Posts
      41
      The car will have a F-2 blown 502, minitubs, and I will likely be converting to a Tremec TKO-600.

      60-foot times will be important, but on the street I want good on-center feel, no wandering, and perhaps less lean in the corners.

      I will definately NOT be autocrossing or lapping in this car. I just want it to feel safe and confident in spirited street driving.

      Thanks,
      Dave

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Location
      westchester county new york
      Posts
      2,995
      If I may step in , Dave and Carl have excellent info on first gen handling on their websites.

      You sound like you have a feel for what you really want , as you read more on those sites, and look at the cars here ,you will get a clearer idea of how far you want to go.

      Also get some catalogs from dse and hotchkiss and start your research.

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      957
      60-foot times will be important, but on the street I want good on-center feel, no wandering, and perhaps less lean in the corners.
      There are lots of economical options out there that will get you to this point very easily. In the front, the most important areas to address are the condition of the bushings, tie rods, drag link, etc. If you can, I'd replace it all with new stuff, and I'd consider using the del-alum bushings from Global, DSE, et. al. Get one of the rebuilt steering boxes, I run an AGR currently in my car from Summit, there are others out there that will work just as well for about the same amount of money, you will be very happy with the feel and response, they work very well. Look on David P's site to learn about the common correction to the front geometry, called the Gulstrand mod, either this, or utilizing the new AFX tall spindle instead will help correct one of the glaring geometry issues of the older stock front stuff. Stiffer springs, and a larger front stabilizer bar.

      In the rear, putting the power down with that motor is your biggest challenge. Probably the easiest thing to do is to run leafs, and supplement them with a slide-a-link style traction bar setup, they seem to work very well and are about as simple as you can get. Plus, you can tune them pretty easily for forward bite, this might be the easiest win for what you describe you want the car to do. If you want to get a little more crazy, there are certainly better solutions, but they are more complex, require a bit more installation work, and are quite a bit more expensive. In addition, all but a couple have very little tuning capability for an emphasis on hooking the tires. I'd start with the leaf solution, and then sort the car out. If you need more in the future, you can always sell your old stuff, but you probably won't need to.

      Good luck, and have fun,
      Mark

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Sep 2004
      Location
      PA.
      Posts
      935
      Country Flag: United States
      Welcome aboard Dave! The first thing to do is look at where the car is deficient vs. todays cars.
      First off the chassis isn`t as stiff. The mounting configuration of the subframe is a big part of that. Good subframe connectors are probably the first thing to do. Firmer subframe bushings aren`t a bad idea either.
      Next the suspension. The front suspension has a lot of issues. Compared to a modern performance car the camber curves are actually backwards and the roll center way too low (underground!). These conspire to make the car lean too much in the turns and the tires to roll over onto their sidewalls. The car feels heavy and sluggish in tight turns at speed. To make it worse the springs,swaybars and shocks are very soft allowing the suspension to use a lot of that bad geometry. To top it all off the steering is slow and the linkage is located so that it causes quite a bit of bumpsteer so the car wanders on uneven roads and feels twitchy in the corners.
      Back in the day Trans Am race teams like Penske`s found some ways to minimize these issues but were hindered by the rules. The redrilled the upper control arm holes lower and farther rearward to improve the camber,roll center and to add a little more + caster for stability. Now usually called the G Mod after **** Guldstrand this mod helps some but doesn`t get you up to modern standards. They also heated and bent the steering arms down 1/2" or so to improve the bumpsteer. Sometimes they held up alright,sometimes not. They ran stiffer spring and shocks and larger swaybars. Traditionally the solution has been to just run stiff springs and bars to prevent the suspension from moving much,because when it moves it`s "bad". That helps but it`s obviously an imperfect bandaid solution. There are many companys offering tubular upper arms. They offer more static + caster which has some benefits but the camber curves and roll center remain unchanged. Penske talked Chevy into making a very small number of taller spindles to improve these. This is one reason your full sized car drives nicer than the Camaro,they had taller spindles and much better overall geometry. There are a couple companies just now offering tall spindles for 1st Gens. some better than others.
      Our solution is to use the original spindles because they`re nice lightweight,modular pieces that easily accept modern brakes and combine them with a tall stud modular upper ball joint to increase the effective spindle height and tall tie rod ends to give the same benefits gained by bending the arms but without messing up their temper or the ackerman. We top it off with fully adj. tubular upper arms that allow modern alignment specs and proper ball joint travel at any ride height and with any other mods. The alignment specs are a large part of what gives you that "new car" feel so it`s very important not to compromise them and to bring them up to date. This setup is basically a refined bolt on version of the race car setups of yesterday. Combine it with the G mod and the geometry is even better. On par with many modern performance cars. There`s more than one way to skin a cat but this is the best approach we`ve used so far. Put some good bushings in the arms,I especially like Del-a-lums for front lower arms.
      The rear suspension isn`t all that bad for street use. A good set of higher rate rear springs will cover it pretty well. With the proper rates front and rear (in the neighborhood of 600lbs/in front and 250lbs/in rear) and you don`t have to run a rear swaybar. In front the more you improve the geometry the smaller a bar you want to run. This gives you good handling with good composure even on rough roads.
      Finish it off with a GOOD set of shocks. We prefer Bilsteins for fixed rate shocks, QA1 12 way adj. for an reasonably priced adj. and Bilsteins again for a top shelf adj. Don`t skimp on the shocks. They`re just as important as any other suspension component,maybe more so! Mark SC&C





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