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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      99

      LS3 Clearance Issues to Frame

      Hi Everyone,

      today was was the day where all the stars were suppose to align and dropping in the LS3 would be a piece of cake...NOT!!!!

      So here is what I have:
      1. Engine is an LS3-376 525HP
      2. Steering rack is a Flamming River power steering cradle http://www.flamingriver.com/index.ph...0007/FR313KTKB
      3. Oil pan swap. I used the Holley model 302-2
      4. Transdapt model 4592 engine swap mounts which is suppose to put the engine is the stock location
      5. Energy Suspension model 3-1114 mount.


      When I bought the frame it was for a big block and had the appropriate engine frame mounts which locates them approx in the middle of the cross frame. Turns out I had to get some small block engine frame mounts which locates the mounts closer to the front of the cross frame. The first photo shows the comparison between the small and big block engine frame mounts.

      The second photo shows how much lower the big block frame mounts sit in the cross frame (mount in background) as compared the small block frame mounts (mount in foreground).

      With all all the correct pieces in place we lowered th engine only to see that the oil pan Make contact with the cross frame and the steering cradle.

      Im at a loss here. The steering cradle only bolts in one way. The holes in the frame are not elongated, they are just holes so there is no adjustment up or down.

      This is a little frustrating. This is not the new to an LS swap. So I'm hoping that someone out
      there has come across this and has an incredibly easy solution. I can be optimistic 😳. Everything fits fine if the oil pan was not there haha.

      thanks for any help.

      Perry
      Attached Images Attached Images    

    2. #2
      Join Date
      Jun 2009
      Location
      From Wasilla, AK. Now portland, OR
      Posts
      165
      Country Flag: United States
      I would look at the holley mounts. they would put it in the stock location. also i dont know if it will clear the rack setup. i used the edelbrock mounts when i did mine and they dropped in. i will be switching to the holley setup soon and have used holleys on another chevelle.
      1970 Elcamino ls3/t56, ricks/vaporworx, sc&c afx ,forgeline zx3, kore3 z51/ls1
      1969 Camaro ls1/t56, ricks/vaporworx, ride-tech,forgeline ga3,
      1996 civic the car that makes it all possible

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Apr 2008
      Posts
      4
      yep this is easy
      If you want stuff that fits Call Muscle Rods. all their components are made to work together. Not from 3 different vendors.
      Keith or Jeff over there will get you fixed in about 5 minutes. you will also need a set of headers and a cross member which they have for your car.

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,489
      Country Flag: United States
      Another vote for the Holley setup. Ditch the rack and get a 600 steering box from Turn-One etc.

      https://www.holley.com/products/ls_p...ap_components/

      I can honestly say I have never come across one of those rack conversions on this or any other forum... $3600 for a rack conversion kit?

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Jul 2006
      Location
      Pensacola, FL
      Posts
      1,263
      Country Flag: United States
      100% agree w dhutton. The DSE/turn one box is worth every penny. Totally different car. Use all the holley parts, no issues.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Jun 2010
      Location
      Deployed
      Posts
      3,280
      Country Flag: United States
      What kind of car is this?? Just by the picture looks like you don’t have the proper adapter plates. Looks too far forward. To place a LS in the same spot as a SBC you actually need set back mounts.
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      1,651
      Country Flag: United States
      Unfortunately this is what happens when you mix and match LS swap parts. If you are going to use the Holley pan, use the other parts that they sell to go with it. The are 2 different Holley pans, the -1 and the -2 (and 3). There are 2 different mounts for each of those pans. Have the steering rack is another issue. I believe meant for Holley them to go with the factory style steering box.
      Chris
      1968 Chevy Camaro SS
      LS3/T56 DSE suspension


    8. #8
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      99
      Thanks for all the replies. It would appear everyone is pro Holley which is not a bad thing. I'm not convinced replacing my steering rack and swapping out the mounts is the best solution, so I did more research. The Holley mounts sit the motor higher to ensure the oil pan, which I have, clears the cross frame. If it clears the cross frame, it will clear the steering rack. So either I can spend money on new Holley mounts or spend money on some billet spacers.

      Sorry, I should have said it was for a 68 Chevelle.

      Perry

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Dec 2008
      Location
      Detroit
      Posts
      2,584
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by Zombie666 View Post
      Thanks for all the replies. It would appear everyone is pro Holley which is not a bad thing. I'm not convinced replacing my steering rack and swapping out the mounts is the best solution, so I did more research. The Holley mounts sit the motor higher to ensure the oil pan, which I have, clears the cross frame. If it clears the cross frame, it will clear the steering rack. So either I can spend money on new Holley mounts or spend money on some billet spacers.

      Sorry, I should have said it was for a 68 Chevelle.

      Perry
      First there are no Big Block specific frames if you mean chassis, just engine stands. Second All LS swap mount kits are designed around SBC frame mounts. They are also designed to mount near the front of the cradle and will have some overhang. Switching to the Holley setup may work, but the only thing is it was likely designed around a factory steering box and not a vehicle with a rack and pinion conversion.
      Big dreams, small pockets....

      Chris--
      '72 Cutlass S LSA/T56 Magnum
      Bowler Performance, Rushforth Wheels, ATS, Holley EFI, KORE3, Ridetech

      Project Motor City Madness

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      1,651
      Country Flag: United States
      Zombie, is there a particular reason you are tied to the aftermarket steering rack? There are some great factory style aftermarket steering boxes.



      I wouldn’t say everyone is pro Holley, but we are suggesting their pieces because you already have their 302-2 pan. The other side is that the package makes everything fit well. I swapped my LS a few years ago, but am considering changing all of my stuff to their stuff.
      Chris
      1968 Chevy Camaro SS
      LS3/T56 DSE suspension



    11. #11
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Posts
      372
      Country Flag: United States
      You're likely to be able to get some good information here, but more information and pictures of where your interference is happening will be needed. From the photos you have posted, here's a few things I can tell you.

      1.) The stock Chevelle Big Block and Small Block engine stands bolt to the frame using the same holes and they both cantilever off the front of the crossmember...those stands shown in the lower more rearward position in your photos are not Chevelle/Chevrolet engine stands and are from another application.

      2.) The Transdapt adapter plates you are using moves the engine/transmission mating plane forward by 1.25" to 1.5" relative to the where it was in the stock SB Chevy installation, depending on the actual engine stands you're using them with. That fore/aft position will make the clearance between the front corners of the sump of the Holley 302-2 oil pan and the chassis very tight. The front corners of the 302-3 oil pan sump are beveled and therefore would provide more clearance in that area.

      3.) The Hooker A-body LS swap brackets are unique in that they are not based around the use of the stock BB or SB engine stands, or the stock old-school Chevy engine mounts. They are instead designed to use 4th-gen F-body engine mounts and delete the stock frame stands from the equation entirely, which provides the user with more component compatibility options (like being able to run a low-mount A/C compressor on the passenger side of the car). There is a forward-bias set of Hooker brackets that places the engine very close to the fore-aft position you are at now, and a rear-bias set that places the engine 1.25" further back from there and locates the engine/transmission mating plane in the stock SB Chevy location.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Posts
      372
      Country Flag: United States
      Here's some images that will give you some comparative perspective. The first three images depict an LS engine in the frame of a 68' A-body mounted with the Hooker forward-bias engine brackets and transmission crossmember...notice the tight clearance between the front corners of the sump of the Holley 302-2 pan and the back side of the engine crossmember and the clearance between the inner tie rod ends and the 302-2 pan. The next two images depict the Hooker engine brackets attached to the frame and the last two images depict an LS mocked-up in a Chevelle using the Hooker rear-bias engine brackets. You can see the use of the 4th-gen F-body engine mounts in these last images. Name:  044.jpg
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    13. #13
      Join Date
      Nov 2014
      Posts
      233
      Country Flag: United States
      i am not completely familiar with the flaming river rack and chevelle application, but here is what worked in my camaro swap.
      1. LS3, stock sub, unisteer power rack;
      2. Camaro big block stands to offset engine 3/4" to passenger side. Allows clearance for rack fittings;
      3. Dirty Dingo Sliders and moroso solid motor mounts; provide adjustability fore and aft.
      4. AutoKraft champ pan. I believe the holley pan will have similar dimensions.
      5. Speedtech rear crossmember. plenty of adustability side to side and fore/aft.

      Everything fits and drives well. Don't be surprised if you need to drop the rack when installing the engine/transmission assembled

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Jacksonville, FL
      Posts
      1,651
      Country Flag: United States
      That’s some great info Todd!
      Chris
      1968 Chevy Camaro SS
      LS3/T56 DSE suspension


    15. #15
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      99
      Todd,

      This is great info as Chris said. I do have a couple other questions.

      1. It appears the mounts you have shown puts the engine towards the rear by the 1.25"-1.5" which is what I will need to do to clear my steering cradle of which I will be keeping.

      2. What engine mount did you use. Hard to tell in the second last photo. It looks like a solid mount. On the side of the block there are a total of six mounting holes, 3 up high and 3 below. Looks like you used to 4 most forward mounting holes??

      I would like to use a polyurathane mount. Can I assume an energy suspension plyurathane mount will attached to the Holley mount you used?

      Thanks again for ALL comments and suggestions. Its greatly appreciated.

      Perry

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Posts
      372
      Country Flag: United States
      Perry, the fore/aft engine position you'll achieve using the Hooker 68-72 A-body engine brackets depends on which set you use (there is a forward-bias set and a rear-bias set) The rear-bias set locates the engine/transmission mating plane in the stock Chevelle/SB Chevy location and the forward-bias set moves the engine/transmission mating plane forward by 1.25" from that location.

      For some better understanding of the geometry involved, you need to remember that an LS engine block is 1-3/16" shorter than a SB Chevy engine block (and the length is all missing off the back end of the block), so you can move the engine/transmission mating plane forward by up to 1-3/16" from the SB Chevy location before the front face of the LS block, or the LS cylinder heads move farther forward in the car than where these reference points were in the original SB Chevy installation.

      The caveat here is that both the forward-bias and rear-bias Hooker engine brackets have fitment benefits over the other related to transmission and accessory drive fitment, so if you are going to move the engine rearward to provide more clearance for your steering, it may cause you to encounter some sheet metal re-work in the transmission tunnel that you wouldn't need to do if you were using the forward-bias engine brackets, depending on the specific transmission you are using. The old-school Power Glide, TH350, TH400, 2004R etc.. transmissions won't give you any grief with the rear-bias engine brackets, but a 4L60-4L70, 4L80 or T56 will if you are trying to end up with desirable U-joint working angles.

      The engine mounts used with the Hooker engine brackets are GM 4th-gen F-body mounts, which poly inserts can be purchased and used with the stock cages for those mounts. Yes, the Hooker engine bracket set-up is based around using the four forward bolt locations on the LS block as they are the only ones that exist on all LS blocks.

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Oct 2015
      Posts
      51
      Country Flag: United States
      Let me know if you need some pictures, I'm running an ls3 in the stock location using the rear bias Holley mounts. I also replaced the rubber inserts in the 4th gen engine mounts with poly inserts. This is in my 71 Chevelle which uses the same frame as yours.Name:  20180723_151322.jpg
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    18. #18
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      99
      Thanks Lawrenq for the additional info. Since the Holley mounts sits the motor slightly higher and I have everything I need without spending another small fortune I decided to add a 1/4" spacer between the frame mount and frame. I bought a section of SCH 160 thick wall pipe cut down to 1/4" lengths and tack welded them to the backside of the frame mount. Once I was happy with the clearance I fully weld the spacer. The frame mount bolts down to keep the motor in the stock location. Once I have a chance I'll post a couple photos. Thanks everyone for all your help!!

      Perry

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Posts
      372
      Country Flag: United States
      Perry, I don't know where you got the information of the Hooker engine mounting brackets placing the engine higher off the frame, but it's incorrect wherever it came from. The reason the Hooker engine brackets were developed around the use of 4th-gen F-body engine mounts was because the use of adapter plates with the factory frame stands and old school Chevy engine mounts would not permit the engine to sit down low enough in the chassis to provide minimum clearance between the inner tie rods of the car and the low profile of the Holley 302-2 oil pan. That was a primary goal in the development of the Hooker A-body swap system, since achieving desirable U-joint operating angles had been a long-standing issue with these cars in an LS swap due to the high position of the inner tie rod ends up front relative to the low height of the transmission tunnel sheet metal in the area of the pinch point at the rear of the trans.

      The Holley 302-2 and 302-3 oil pans are the only pans on the market that will allow an LS to be sat as low as it sits in the chassis using the Hooker A-body specific engine mounting brackets.

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Sep 2017
      Posts
      99
      Toddoky,

      At the end of the day I need this to be right so I broke down and purchased the Hooker mounts. Should be here in a week. Thanks for all the help!!

      Perry

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