69 Nova performance cruiser front suspension rebuild

[69NovaDude]

I have a 69 Nova that I am prepping for a complete front suspension overhaul. I don't really plan on autocrossing, mostly will use it for cruising and aggressive back road driving. I would like it to handle as well or better than a typical modern sedan but not sacrifice ride comfort. I also have a budget of $1,500. I would like the community's opinion of the parts I have planned given my desired use and budget. Here's what I have spec'd out:



Stock UCAs and LCAs
Moog ball joints upper and lower
Del-a-lum upper and lower control arm bushings
New Moog inner and outer tie rod ends, pitman arm and idler arm
Bilstein shocks
Global West 1" drop springs
Hellwig 1 1/18" hollow sway bar
UMI tie rod sleeves

A couple of other questions I have are:
For my purpose and budget would Proforged be better than Moog?
Would it be worth doing a 0.5" taller UBJ with the longer tie rod (I don't want to do a G-mod)?
Worth the extra money for hollow vs solid sway bar?
Are delrin/del-a-lum control arm bushings worth the extra money over rubber or poly?
Any cheaper and/more better suggestions for front springs?

Thanks for the help guys, there is a lot to consider and I haven't found any other posts with someone doing a complete budget rebuild with my intended use.

[stab6902]

Welcome! These are all wise questions. A couple comments/opinions for you:

- I prefer Pro-Forged ball joints over Moog. Rockauto.com sells them now, and they're similarly priced. Either will be fine, but the Pro-Forged ones feel a little higher quality to me. I have no test data to back that up, just an opinion.
- I'd recommend the 0.9" taller Pro-Forged upper ball joints. These will get your camber gain going in the right direction (more negative camber under compression). I'm running them in my F-body and A-body without taller tie rod studs and I've never noticed any bump-steer issues on the street. It's probably there (I didn't measure my cars so I can't be sure), but it must not be too bad. Running lots of caster (5+ degrees) helps negate the bump steer issue too.
- I think it's worth the extra $30 or so for the hollow sway bar. Less weight on the front end of the car is always good.
- I'm a big proponent of rubber bushings on everything but serious race cars. Even exotics (McLaren, Ferrari, etc) run rubber bushings for durability and a little bit of ride isolation.
- I've used Hotchkis and BMR springs. I prefer BMR - they're priced more reasonably than many others (still a little high when compared to Moog replacement springs for example) and they provide the advertised drop, if not a little more depending on the car. All the Hotchkis stuff is overpriced IMO and I got a set of springs from them that sat an inch higher on one side (and they were installed correctly).
- I see no reason to buy anything other than the basic tie rod sleeves. I've never seen a bent one and the original style ones aren't bad to adjust.
- Using the stock control arms is a smart move. The tubular ones are mostly eye candy.

Hopefully that's helpful.

[69NovaDude]

Ryan, thanks for the advice. Sounds like a the taller UBJ is a popular mod.

After some more research, it sounds like the ridetech StreetGrip system would be well suited for how I intend to use the car. I also need rear leaf springs, shocks and bushings, which all come with the Street Grip system, so it seems like it would make sense to buy it all at once. Problem is it is not in the budget right now. I am in the middle of a disc brake swap, which is what spurred me into rebuilding the front suspension. Would I be better off to put the stock front end back together until I can afford to do the entire StreetGrip system, or just do the front end components I have picked out for now and the rear later? My cost estimate for the front end components I spec'd in my first post plus what I will need for the rear comes to about $2k, which is petty close to the cost of the ridetech system, which is probably a better system I am guessing.

[stab6902]

I always say "buy once, cry once." ridetech offers all of their StreetGrip components separately too if that's the way you want to go; I'd look into that so you can at least get the front end done while it's all apart. I'm a little surprised your non-StreetGrip total was that expensive; I put together a similar system from other vendors for way less than half of ridetech's price.

[69NovaDude]

Can you recommend a vendor? That $2k is what I priced at Summit for Global West front and rear springs, all front and rear del-a-lum bushings, sway bar, ball joints, offset cross shafts, and Bilstein shocks.

[stab6902]

What kind of tires are you running? That will ultimately determine how "hardcore" you should go on suspension. Here's what I'm running on my 68 Firebird, with prices rounded to the nearest $5. This is a great setup for street and the occasional autocross with average sized modern summer street tires. You'd want something more "hardcore" if you plan on running 275mm+ 200 treadwear tires on a road course, but you said this was primarily a street car.

- Moog rubber front control arm bushings (all 8): $40 from rockauto.com, don't forget your 5% off code
- Moog rubber rear leaf bushings (all of them): $35 from rockauto.com
*Again, I prefer rubber bushings on a street car, especially on the rear leafs where you need compliance. Delrin/Del-Alum will cost more and ride harsher/noisier, with the benefit of less compliance under high loads. It's a trade-off.
- BMR front 2" lowering springs: $140 from Summit, often you can get 10% off promotional codes at big car shows
- Hellwig 1-1/8" hollow front swaybar: $160 from Summit
- Pro-Forged 0.9" taller front upper ball joints (pair): $120 from Summit
- Koni STR.T shocks: $240 for the set of 4 from tirerack.com, they often run specials with $30-$50 mail in rebates
*I've had Bilstein and Koni shocks on a number of cars and honestly I can't tell the difference between the two. Maybe if I had two identically setup cars to drive back-to-back I could, but the differences are small and a matter of preference. They're both good and noticeably better than the "parts store" shocks. I'm not really sure how much better the Hotchkis and ridetech shocks that cost 2-3x more could really be; i've never tried them.
- 2" lowering blocks for my stock rear multi-leafs: $25 from Advance Auto
*Stock rear multi-leafs and small (2" or less) lowering blocks are fine for a typical 300-400 ft-lb torque street motor and street tires in my opinion. Due to roll center heights and the properties of leaf springs, you don't need super high rear leaf spring rates and rear sway bars to prevent understeer with the stiffened up front end.

Grand total so far: $760, without using any discount codes or rebates.

If you must have new rear leafs, you can add the BMR ones for $350 (then subtract $20 from above since they come with bushings), moving your total up to $1090. With some discount codes and rebates, you're at ~$1000 for a suspension system very comparable to ridetech's. And you're still using good brands - Moog, Koni, and BMR are all highly regarded. Why pay more

If you want to run the Bilstein shocks, your total would be around $1290.

Hopefully this helps. I'm very happy with this system in my car for the way I use it. Pic below:

[69NovaDude]

Wow, that's a good looking car. I must of had something calculated wrong, I rechecked my prices on summit and with the del-a-lum bushings, bilstein shocks, proforged ball joints, and bmr shocks front and rear it comes to about $1400. I do need new rear springs because right now I have stock mono leafs.

I definitely don't want anything more hardcore, just looking for a good performance driver. Right now I am running 14" rally wheels, but I will be upgrading to 17"s in the future. I've never run anything but the ancient original rubber bushings, but I do really like the idea of delrin bushings in control arms and leaf springs. My understanding is that using them in those locations maintains the proper suspension geometry, allowing the suspension to articulate in the correct plane and the shocks and springs to the job of complying to the changing road surface. I've read that with proper spring and shock selection they do not add any harshness to the ride. But having never used them I can't speak from experience.

I think for the money putting together a system similar to yours would probably be good enough for me. Now I just need to decide what springs to go with. I like the price of the BMR stuff, but other than your endorsement I have't been able to find any reviews for older cars. I think the ridetech springs look awesome, but not sure if they are worth the price.

[pitts64]

I wouldn't put a dime into that stock sub frame with all the excellent sub frames they make today.. Especially if you want to take on todays cars..

[USAZR1]

You sure do build some nice cars, Ryan. Beautiful Firebird! Like your mindset on those mods,too.

[79T/Aman]

I'm curious about Koni STR.T shocks, Koni does not have a listing for them for a first, I suppose you could use a Mustang rear shock in the rear but I don't see them for the front.

[stab6902]

Here's the Koni catalog for anyone interested: http://www.koni-na.com/CorporateSite...utoCatalog.pdf

For the original poster 's car (69 Nova), the part numbers are 8150 1046 (front) and 8050 1047 (rear).

In my first gen F-body, I am running 8150 1046 in the front (it's the same exact subframe as the Nova's, not sure why they don't list that part number) and 8250 1006 in the back. These rear shocks are listed for a 4th gen F-body, but the length and mounting style are the same, and the rear spring rates are super close between the 1st gen and 4th gen Camaros. I did have to run some smaller upper shock bushings though; the 4th gens use a larger diameter bushing than the 1st gens. Other brands of shocks list the same part number for the 1st and 4th gen shocks (along with a bunch of other cars).

Hopefully that helps.

[Marcus SC&C]

Based on our 35 years of building these cars we`ve learned a LOT of lessons, many the hard way. Things that seems like a good idea at the time often end up turning into an exercise in tail chasing when you actually implement them. ;)
First off you want to asses the car and its weak points. Then you want to address those points, starting with the weakest link in the chain. If you skip this step, you end up with a cool looking car that under delivers (y`know a typical hot rod...). On this platform the 800lb gorilla in the room is the front end geometry. The camber curves are totally backwards, the roll center is underground and very unstable and it has a huge amount of bump steer. To make matters worse the factory alignment specs are really lame and only serves to make things worse. The easiest way to address these geometry issues on a budget is with something like our Stage 2-Plus package. http://scandc.com/new/node/44 This system uses Howe Precision Series Xtall upper ball joints (this is the +.9" ball joint height others have knocked of in Taiwan) to reverse the backward camber curves, raise and stabilize the roll center. Also Howe tall tie rod ends to correct the bump steer. Yes, the kit also includes upper A arms. People often ask if they can use tall ball joints or tall spindles with stock upper A arms. The answer is sure, but you won`t want to. The reason is primarily because of alignment issues. Modern alignment specs are already well out of reach of the stock components, their dimensions were simply designed for old school specs. That means we can`t tune the car like a modern car, a problem. When we lower the car with springs or add height to the spindle/ball joint assy. we move these components ever further away from that modern adjustment range. Often we can`t even set them to the lame stock specs. So what`s your net gain in performance and drive ability with better geometry and a poor alignment? Very little, could be zero. We can also run into travel and safety issues, maxing out the travel of the upper ball joints in bump and causing the stock A arms to actually break off. I`ve seen it happen and the results aren`t pretty. BTW these alignment issues also apply to stock geometry tubular arms, which are basically decorative pieces for performance themed *show cars*. Performance tubular arms made to be alignment aids, with added - camber and + caster range may work well or not so well depending on the individual application. We use a specific SPC adjustable upper arms designed specifically for the new geometry. The adjust-ability allows them to achieve a wide range of alignment setting choices on every car, every time. Lower arms can be stock, if they`re in good repair, not warped or twisted and have no stress cracks (inspect them frequently). I agree with the posts above, rubber bushings are good for this application. You`ll gain very little putting low loss race bushings in flimsy stamped arms and the rubber bushings serve to cushion the half century old stamped arms against the impacts of pot holes etc. helping to prolong their already drawn out service lives.
Once the geometry/alignment gorilla is taken care of we have a solid platform to build on and we can begin to tune the car. Springs will allow is to adjust the ride height, wheel rate and natural ride frequency to suit our needs. Be honest with yourself about how you intend to use the car. Using a 2" lowering spring on a car with 3" of bump travel leaves you with one precious inch left. On a car with street friendly spring and shock dampening rates that may not be enough to keep the headers and oil pan off the street at all times. I suggest a good all around set of touring springs. In our Touring Package http://scandc.com/new/node/984 we use springs from Global West (good call!). They have about a 1" drop and firm but very civilized spring rates. The cars handle great but combined with optimized shocks the cars actually ride great too! You CAN have it all, you just have to select your components VERY carefully. On more hardcore builds we use firmer Hotchkis springs that give a lower more aggressive stance and higher rates but there is an inevitable trade off in ride and smoothness on rough roads. Note, factory type springs from the auto parts store have all taken a huge hit in quality in recent years,they don`t offer modern rates or heights so they aren`t really useful to us at all even for a low price.
Next up are the shocks. Shock technology has advanced almost as rapidly as computer and cell phone technology in the last few decades. If you don`t select wisely you can end up paying top dollar HP/Asus/Alienware prices for shocks that are the equivalent of a Commodore 64. You also want to be aware of the difference between race shocks and street shocks. Race shocks put 0 emphasis on drive ability and ride and that often translates into skittish behavior on bumpy public roads. They also often lack OE type dirt and moisture seals which makes them very maintenance intensive. The Koni STR.T shocks mentioned are a good choice but for the money you can do much better. Consider the Varishock SS from Chassisworks. Read about them here http://scandc.com/new/node/976 The price point is similar and they`re fully rebuildable aluminum 100% USA made shocks with cutting edge valving truly optimized to these cars. The basic concept is to bolt the dampening of a new BWM onto vintage muscle cars.
Lastly, round the chassis out with sway bars. the Hellwig 1 1/8" is a great choice, especially for geometry corrected cars. You don`t need any more rate than that and it will preserve decent ride quality and stability on single wheels bumps better than larger/higher rate bars. Add a Hellwig rear sway bar. Yes, you can get away without it but the car will still feel more heavy and unresponsive than a modern performance car. The added rate of the rear bar balances the cars behavior, improves turn in and makes the car feel much lighter and more responsive, like a performance car should. If it`s not in the budget right now, just add it later.
If you have any questions please feel free to call us and take advantage of our famous Free Suspension Counseling Service!

[69NovaDude]

So after pricing out all the components I need (front and rear) separately, I get I get around $2k. For a little but more money I can a complete kit like the ridetech streetgrip or the SC&C touring kit. I think I am going to bite the bullet and go for a full kit.

Mark, what I'm trying to figure out is what would be the improvement in handeling with your touring kit and it's improved alignment specs vs the StreetGrip. For the way I use the car would it be noticable? Also, what will I give up in ride quality. It seems to me the the composite leafs, dual rate front springs, and adjustable shocks on the StreetGrip would be hard to beat for ride quality but still have decent handling. Not saying one is better than the other, just trying to figure out if one is more dedicated for handling vs a balance of ride quality and handling.

I've seen a fair amount of recommendations for the StreetGrip system, but surprisingly few real world reviews. Could the recommendations be because they are a site sponsor vs because people have actually run the system?The few reviews I have seen have been very positive. Does anyone have experience with the Touring Suspension Package (http://scandc.com/new/node/984) from SC&C that could give a review?

[dhutton]

No matter which way you go I would recommend a modern monotube shock versus the outdated twin tube shock some are recommending. Makes no sense not to use monotube imho...

Don

[stab6902]

Calling twin tube shocks outdated is like calling pushrod motors outdated. There's pros and cons to each, but both architectures are being continually developed and can and do compete at the highest levels. If twin tube shocks are good enough to win LeMans, they're good enough for street cars.

Source: https://www.ohlins.com/product/ttx40-mk-ii/

[79T/Aman]

Calling twin tube shocks outdated is like calling pushrod motors outdated. There's pros and cons to each, but both architectures are being continually developed and can and do compete at the highest levels. If twin tube shocks are good enough to win LeMans, they're good enough for street cars.

Source: https://www.ohlins.com/product/ttx40-mk-ii/

agree with this whole heartedly, in see advertising touting the virtues of a larger piston in mono tube shocks VS twin tube, this would apply if the shock body OD were the same but I see mono tube shocks on the market that have a smaller body that twin tube so where is the benefit? we had a rear caliper bracket fail at the 2016 SCCA national, the caliper smashed into the Viking shock (Crusade twin tube) dented the shock but no internal damage, fixed the caliper bracket and went on to a second place finish in the afternoon secession and 4th over all.

[Marcus SC&C]

The difference between the two kits are pretty substantial. For starters our package has much more complete geometry correction for the front end AND it has bump steer correction. This makes a huge difference in drive ability. 100% made in USA components with Howe Precision Series ball joints and tie rod ends, the best in the world. The street grip has very modest geometry improvement and no bump steer correction at all. Taiwanese made OE type tall ball joints. What`s more our package allows you to run a modern performance alignment, the importance of this cannot be overstated. As I mentioned before these cars weren`t designed to run today's alignment specs and they suffer for it. Lowering the cars and adding taller ball joints just makes achieving a decent alignment that much harder and it is often an uphill struggle to get even stock alignment specs out of modified cars. The springs take different approaches as well. Note that almost nobody uses progressive rate coil springs in their performance packages or on modern cars. It`s one of those things that sounds much better than it is in practice. The composite rear springs are okay, but folks often struggle to get the proper ride height out of them and they`re not tune able. Multi leaf steel springs like those from Global West etc. are easily tuned and tweaked to dial them in perfectly for individual cars. The Touring Package yields more improvement and has more components for less money. I`m just saying.
I completely agree about twin tube vs. mono tube, both are very old designs and both are only as good or bad as their execution. Shock performance is a very deep subject, it`s not as simple as single or double adjustable or mono vs. twin tube. For example the Varishock SS shocks in the Touring package are very sophisticated pieces with outstanding dampening curves. The three most popular *double adjustable* shocks for the same application can`t get withing 30% of it`s rebound dampening no matter how you adjust them, they just don`t have the range. As always the devil is in the details.

[stab6902]

Good points Mark. Regarding alignment, just to provide one data point (all cars are a little different), I was able to get 5 degrees caster and -1 degree camber on my Firebird with 0.9" taller upper ball joints and the stock control arms. In a perfect world, I would have preferred 8 degrees caster and -0.5 degrees camber. Either one of those options is way better than the ~0 degrees caster and camber these car left the factory with.

I would not suggest dialing in 8 degrees of caster using aftermarket upper control arms alone - this will make the wheel look like it's too far back in the wheel well. Ideally the upper and lower control arms would "add" equal amounts of extra caster so your wheel stays centered. Some of the aftermarket control arms have "built in" caster correction in both the upper and lowers, but not all.

[dontlifttoshift]

Calling twin tube shocks outdated is like calling pushrod motors outdated. There's pros and cons to each, but both architectures are being continually developed and can and do compete at the highest levels. If twin tube shocks are good enough to win LeMans, they're good enough for street cars.

Source: https://www.ohlins.com/product/ttx40-mk-ii/

Not sure if serious.

[stab6902]

Not sure if serious.

I stand by that statement; to the best of my knowledge it's correct. I'm all ears if you have data to prove otherwise.

You can pay between $20 and $2000+ for either a twin tube or a monotube shock, and with few exceptions, you get what you pay for. There are pros and cons to each architecture, but simply calling one design better than the other (despite what certain marketing materials would like you to believe) is incorrect.