Share your formula for a $50,000 pro-touring car or truck -- approximate

[Steve Chryssos]

There's another thread asking how much to build a high end pro-touring car. It's always fun to talk about cars like that. You can compare their cost as a performance bargain relative to buying a new Ferrari or Porsche 911. Since most of us don't have Ferrari money lying around, please share your build or build strategy for approximately $50K -- plus or minus. That's new Camaro SS money (fully loaded) to Camaro ZLl or Z28 money (gently used).

I know you're out there. I see you at events from coast to coast all the time.
/Steve

EDIT: Tell us where you think it's best to save money and where to focus money. And yes... this includes the cost of the vehicle.

[Build-It-Break-It]

Steve are you asking for ANY "pro touring" build less then $50k? You mentioned the newer Camaro but I personally don't even consider them "pro touring" from my perspective based on this website and others. I feel for me "pro touring" would be an older muscle car and those are hard to build right in the $50k price range. Not sure if other people group the newer and older cars together but I usually don't even like watching the newer cars run at events even tho I do love and appreciate the newer cars. The newer Camaros are cool and so are the Newer corvettes and Mustang but those build threads usually don't get much traffic and aren't as appealing.

The cost of an older desirable muscle car (67 to 73 camaro?),Sheet metal, wiring, fuel system, brake system, rear end, gauges,LS motor, trans etc etc add up fast.

The cars your seeing at events Steve are you assuming the person built them for less then $50k based on looks and parts bolted on? Or you personally asked prices? I hope these questions or comments aren't coming off wrong. I'm really interested as well.

Most cars I've seen at an event look at least in the $80k to $120k range. I'm only speaking of the older muscle cars.

[Steve Chryssos]

No I'm only referencing the new Camaros as a cost target. Old cars and trucks only.

[Build-It-Break-It]

The $50k plus or minus price range you saw at events, is this you guesstimating or you asked the owner?

[rickpaw]

I have about 50K ish in my 67 Firebird, including the cost of the car. I did 99% of the work myself, other than spraying the final color coat.

The biggest thing that can cause the car building budget to get out control is scope creep. Having realistic goal, and plan your build accordingly will keep the cost in control.

If I were to do it over, I can probably spend in the high 30's to build car similar to mine.

[JustJohn]

I don't know that I would use performance bargain relative to a Porsche or Ferrari. Getting a classic into the same performance neighborhood as those cars usually costs more than just buying a Porsche. More like buying a Porsche twice.

There's another thread asking how much to build a high end pro-touring car. It's always fun to talk about cars like that. You can compare their cost as a performance bargain relative to buying a new Ferrari or Porsche 911. Since most of us don't have Ferrari money lying around, please share your build or build strategy for approximately $50K -- plus or minus. That's new Camaro SS money (fully loaded) to Camaro ZLl or Z28 money (gently used).

I know you're out there. I see you at events from coast to coast all the time.
/Steve

EDIT: Tell us where you think it's best to save money and where to focus money. And yes... this includes the cost of the vehicle.

[Steve Chryssos]

Hi Ahmad,
Both. Some of us are better at sourcing cheap cars and trucks than others. Some of us excel at applying skills like welding and painting. ..and some of us are working themes like patina. I love approaching people a events and bench racing. Most people are proud of their judgement calls. Like starting with a C3 Corvette instead of a more expensive C2 Corvette or emphasizing springs and shocks over tubular control arms or starting with a A-body because it will accommodate fat tires without mini tubs and already has a 4-link. Stuff like that...

Surely someone has a basic recipe with costs to share.. I see tons of these threads in the Project section. Andrew Borodin? Callin' you out!

[Steve Chryssos]

I don't know that I would use performance bargain relative to a Porsche or Ferrari. Getting a classic into the same performance neighborhood as those cars usually costs more than just buying a Porsche. More like buying a Porsche twice.

I would... A 2018 Ferrari 488GTB has an MSRP of $252,800. I guarantee you could build a C3 Corvette with an LT4 and our Track 1 suspension with Instinct electronic shocks that would run with it, competitively. But this is a $50K thread, not a six figure thread.
/Steve

[stab6902]

If you're trying to maximize your $50k in the pro-touring world, you're best off buying a pre-built car that's not a super popular body style. The more picky you are, the more patient you'll have to be, but lots of good stuff pops up on here, Craigslist, all the big auctions, ebay, etc.

$50k might not buy your dream 69 Camaro, 70 Chevelle, or 63 Corvette, but it will buy you less popular model years or brands. This Cutlass that just popped up on here is a great example:

https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...utlass-Supreme

I know I couldn't build that car for that money, even considering my labor as free.

[Ron Sutton]

There's another thread asking how much to build a high end pro-touring car. It's always fun to talk about cars like that. You can compare their cost as a performance bargain relative to buying a new Ferrari or Porsche 911. Since most of us don't have Ferrari money lying around, please share your build or build strategy for approximately $50K -- plus or minus. That's new Camaro SS money (fully loaded) to Camaro ZLl or Z28 money (gently used).

I know you're out there. I see you at events from coast to coast all the time.
/Steve

EDIT: Tell us where you think it's best to save money and where to focus money. And yes... this includes the cost of the vehicle.

Hey Steve! This is a GREAT idea. I think we'll get people sharing tips to save money, build things right and figure out the priorities. Love it.

I'll start by adding some thoughts ...

1. Figure out BEFORE your build even starts:
a. How you want to use the car
b. What are your goals for the car
c. What are your priorities from a & b
d. Timeline to have the car done & enjoying driving it

With all of the above, be realistic with yous:
A. Hours available & timeline to build
B. Money saved & money you can set aside each month
C. Your skills ... and skills of friends who will help ... that you can do yourself
D. What has to be outsourced
E. What needs to be bought new & what can be bought used

Write up a list of what you want to do ... along with projected cost & hours ... for:
* Base car
* Body & Paint
* Interior
* Suspension
* Rear end & 3rd Member
* Trans & Driveline
* Engine & Accessories
* Exhaust
* Brakes
* Amenities (A/C, stereo, etc)

Ask yourself is this build realistic with my time & budget to get done in 1 year, 2 years, longer?
Then figure out if you need to trim or increase the budget to achieve what you want.

My suggestion ... and this is ONLY my opinion. Do not come up with unrealistic build goals, that take many years to get the car done. Some people enjoy the build MORE than driving the car. I don't think this advice applies to you. But those of you that want to be out there driving, autocrossing and/or tracking your car ... my suggestion is don't make the goal so lofty the project takes forever to get done. I see projects taking 3, 4, 5 even 10 years to build. Shoot ... if I was in your shoes, I'd skip the $20,000 paint job & run that puppy the way the paint is. Or go do a $2,000 body wrap & call it good.

Just my opinion. Best wishes all !


P.S. When I get more time, I'll come back on here & share ways to make your car perform at a high level, without wasting money.

[JustJohn]

My point is $50k will not get you the same performance, which is why the basis for comparison doesn't work. I hope to not total out too much over that on my own car but even with suspension and engine upgrades mostly complete, it doesn't handle like my new car.

A $50k thread is entirely realistic for most of us in this hobby, I am just being realistic about performance expectations.

I would... A 2018 Ferrari 488GTB has an MSRP of $252,800. I guarantee you could build a C3 Corvette with an LT4 and our Track 1 suspension with Instinct electronic shocks that would run with it, competitively. But this is a $50K thread, not a six figure thread.
/Steve

[Turbo6inKY]

Hey Steve! This is a GREAT idea. I think we'll get people sharing tips to save money, build things right and figure out the priorities. Love it.

I'll start by adding some thoughts ...

1. Figure out BEFORE your build even starts:
a. How you want to use the car
b. What are your goals for the car
c. What are your priorities from a & b
d. Timeline to have the car done & enjoying driving it

With all of the above, be realistic with yous:
A. Hours available & timeline to build
B. Money saved & money you can set aside each month
C. Your skills ... and skills of friends who will help ... that you can do yourself
D. What has to be outsourced
E. What needs to be bought new & what can be bought used

Write up a list of what you want to do ... along with projected cost & hours ... for:
* Base car
* Body & Paint
* Interior
* Suspension
* Rear end & 3rd Member
* Trans & Driveline
* Engine & Accessories
* Exhaust
* Brakes
* Amenities (A/C, stereo, etc)

Ask yourself is this build realistic with my time & budget to get done in 1 year, 2 years, longer?
Then figure out if you need to trim or increase the budget to achieve what you want.

My suggestion ... and this is ONLY my opinion. Do not come up with unrealistic build goals, that take many years to get the car done. Some people enjoy the build MORE than driving the car. I don't think this advice applies to you. But those of you that want to be out there driving, autocrossing and/or tracking your car ... my suggestion is don't make the goal so lofty the project takes forever to get done. I see projects taking 3, 4, 5 even 10 years to build. Shoot ... if I was in your shoes, I'd skip the $20,000 paint job & run that puppy the way the paint is. Or go do a $2,000 body wrap & call it good.

Just my opinion. Best wishes all !


P.S. When I get more time, I'll come back on here & share ways to make your car perform at a high level, without wasting money.

See, now, Ron, you've just ruined the the conversation with a practical outline of what a successful project plan looks like. Darn you.

[JustJohn]

Ron - your input will be nice to see.

[Build-It-Break-It]

Well I'll add to what to save money on and what to spend it on. I've never started a build thread or introduction (I should ) but I have a 68 camaro I bought for $3800 8 years ago that I've done 100% of the work on and I'm not close to $50k yet in parts on the car with purchase of the car. It had minimal rust and i thought $3800 was expensive back then but couldn't find one in better condition for cheaper. But I've done 100% of the work (sheet metal etc), No time frame to build it, trial and error on some things. My parts list below, but its still not on the road until maybe the end of next year and I've owned it 8 years. My family takes priority as this is just a hobby for me and there's no money gained at the end of the build just money lose and time lost. I work a regular 9 to 5 job and live in California were everything is expensive.

My parts list:
I have Speedtech extreme suspension front and torque arm rear, speedway floater rear end, NASCAR built center section with oil cooler, carbon drive shaft, vaporworx fuel system, vintage air, supercharged 5.3 LS motor,Jake's performance built 4l80e and billet converter Recaro seats, full 12 point cage, carbon fiber hood ,trunk, upper and lower valance and cowl, Brembo brakes front and rear, racepak gauges, wilwood pedal set up, collapsible steering column,etc etc.

Some parts used, most parts new, some blem sales, 10% off summit racing sales etc etc.

Spend money on:
Best suspension suspension (for intended use) and shocks you can afford
Best brake system(for intended use)
Best fuel system(for intended use)
Best cage installer (if your going that far)
Safest seats ( regardless of intended use)
Quality gauges (racepak etc)
Collapsible steering column (regardless of intended use)
Floater rear end

Save on:
Junkyard engine (HP can always be upgraded later)
Used NASCAR 3rd member (if you go with a ford 9")
No expensive paint job
No carbon body parts
No fancy sheet metal work (bead rolling, shaved this or that)
If you can bolt it on you can always usually add it later in the build

Just my thoughts. Everyone's goal is different, income is different and skill set is different.

[BonzoHansen]

I thought about this on a conference call I should not have been invited to…..

Easily doable if you make good choices, don’t need a ‘special’ car, stick to your plan, and don’t try to keep up with the Jones. You are not looking to build a SEMA car. Expectations can kill lol.


Major keys before you buy, with an eye towards the $50k budget PT car.


#1 Labor: The more work you can do yourself obviously helps. So if you have to pay others to do labor for you the costs rise exponentially. Most ‘garages’ don’t want to get too far into modifications of an old car, and really don’t have the know-how. So the ‘specialist’ is probably going to cost more. This drives all other points. The more work you can do means more money for upgrades and initial purchase. Side note on labor: Do you have time to do what you want?


#2 Car: It’s like buying a house. Better bones up front reduces costs later, and some neighborhoods are cost prohibitive to the average person.

Paint is a giant cost – buy a painted car, or be happy with aged look (I hate the term patina lol). If you are not a body guy rust is show stopper, keep shopping.
Middle class cars are cheaper than high end cars. So that nice 69 RS is $40k+ out of the gate. Not much room for upgrades. A clean plain jane 69 Camaro is half that or less. You’re modifying a car, provenance (Z28, SS etc) is unimportant.
A $12k 81 Z28 or 87 Monte SS sure leaves a lot more on the table for upgrades.
Staying more mainstream can help – oddball cars can have expensive parts you’d never expect. Pick a car with robust aftermarket support = more parts, more options.
Caveat on this: Stielow once said he builds 1st gens instead of something like a Nova because the other than initial car purchase, the rest of the project is the same cost, and the 1st gen has higher resale. So, yeah, important note taken.

#3 Needs: Be very honest as to your planned usage. Cheating here is just cheating yourself and insures failure. Are you really going to open track it? That’s a whole different conversation in costs, and a true RR car is no street car. We are talking pro-touring not am-racing. For example giant 6 piston brakes with dinner plate rotors are nice – but for a 99.5% street car with maybe a little autocross time does not need $6000+ in brakes. You can always upgrade again later if your needs change. Same for $10k in tires & wheels. Another point: Is your significant other and/or kids going to ride in it often? That might require/preclude certain changes. Like seat belts and AC, and no roll bars/cage. Family buy in carries some weight.


#4 Budget: If outside labor is needed you must talk to folks who have BTDT to get an idea what install costs really are. Regarding parts best I can say don’t forget the nickel & dime stuff that will smoke your budget. Fluids, hardware, towing, hoses, batteries, paint, cleaners, rags, etc. I’ll bet N&D stuff is at least 30% of the actual cost. So at minimum add 35% SIF to your parts budget. (Stuff I forgot).

#5 Parts: Once those are all answered, making a parts list & plan is much easier. I bet I could plan out a nice 2nd gen Camaro for under $30k that is fun to drive and reliable. Just remember a few old adages: “Chrome don’t get you home” and “Fast, Cheap, Reliable – pick 2”. They are true more than not.


One more note: keep your car drivable as much as you can. Incremental upgrades spread the cost and keep up the interested. That old SBC will still take you to the ice cream cruise until you upgrade. These forums are full of stories of people giving up on 10+ year never ending projects. Pro-Jackstand cars are slow & no fun. And if things go wrong a driving car is easier to sell. Yes, no one sells, I know…..

[parsonsj]

One other thing I think one can do reduce costs, and it's kind of a subtle point. Buy parts as you are ready to install them. Stockpiling parts is a recipe for buying stuff you'll never use and it sucks up money and takes up space you could be saving or using to make faster progress on the current part of your build. A corollary to that is to not buy things you see online that's "a good deal", most especially if those parts aren't part of the plan as detailed nicely by others above.

[BonzoHansen]

One other thing I think one can do reduce costs, and it's kind of a subtle point. Buy parts as you are ready to install them. Stockpiling parts is a recipe for buying stuff you'll never use and it sucks up money and takes up space you could be saving or using to make faster progress on the current part of your build. A corollary to that is to not buy things you see online that's "a good deal", most especially if those parts aren't part of the plan as detailed nicely by others above.

100% agreed

[mike@sim-seats]

Speaking strictly in terms of vehicle performance, and comparing to newer cars, I do not believe that there are any bargains. Think about what a $15k C5 corvette gets you. There really just is no comparison.

That said, it doesn't matter to me. If I was starting from scratch today I would do one of the trucks on a panther chassis. Figure $10k for a clean truck, $7k for the newest/nicest police interceptor I could find. From there I'd be looking to get power up to around 300HP at the wheels and spend another chunk of money on wheels, tires, and cooling upgrades. That would leave a good amount for paint, interior, and safety equipment.

I'm guessing I would struggle to spend the $50k on this unless I didn't do the labor myself, or went crazy with paint.

[Ron Sutton]

Spend money on:
Best suspension suspension (for intended use) and shocks you can afford
Best brake system(for intended use)
Best fuel system(for intended use)
Best cage installer (if your going that far)
Safest seats ( regardless of intended use)
Quality gauges (racepak etc)
Collapsible steering column (regardless of intended use)
Floater rear end

Save on:
Junkyard engine (HP can always be upgraded later)
Used NASCAR 3rd member (if you go with a ford 9")
No expensive paint job
No carbon body parts
No fancy sheet metal work (bead rolling, shaved this or that)
If you can bolt it on you can always usually add it later in the build

Just my thoughts. Everyone's goal is different, income is different and skill set is different.

Good points !

[Ron Sutton]

More good points Bonzo & John.

Bonzo, you'd have more money to build cars if you stay out of strip clubs in Parhump!
(Inside joke y'all)