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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Location
      Melbourne, FL
      Posts
      1,046
      Country Flag: United States

      Timing control yes/no ??

      I'm hoping to finally get my car running later this summer. As usual with projects things cause delays. Now technology has changed. I'm going efi. So I'm curious if I should run timing control or not. I currently have a new in the box Mallory vacuum comp 9000 8658001 distributor and a mallory 685 box. I liked the 685 box since it had starter retard.

      But Now I'm debating to a timing control setup with MSD. Car will primarily be a cruiser with some track time. So am curious if I should switch to the MSD setup.
      67 Firebird Convert 455 +.060 Johnny Winters TH400 74cc KRE d-port flowed @ 310 cfm heads piston dished 16cc H-beam rods Comp Cam 305-AH-8 cam 108* LSA 253/260 @.050 duration .577/.594 lift w/1.65 rockers Ford 9" 3.55 Detroit Locker M/T Sportsman Radials 31x18x15 on Convo Pro 15x15s

      Honest dad that 455 on the side of the block is a serial number

    2. #2
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
      Posts
      15,971
      Country Flag: United States
      EFI timing control is great because it will allow you to set the timing curve not only based on RMP, but also based on load (vacuum/MAP). Yes....do that.

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Fredericksburg, VA.
      Posts
      3,155
      Country Flag: United States
      MSD actually recommends that when you first install one of their Atomic EFI systems, that you do not enable the timing control initially. The reason being that it adds an additional layer of complexity should you need to troubleshoot a problem. Instead, they recommend that you run without timing control until such time you have the system up and running and all the bugs worked out. Then you can go in and and add in the timing control. Ultimately, you will benefit from timing control.
      Steve Hayes
      "Dust Off"
      68 Camaro

      Given sufficient initial acceleration, even pigs can fly!

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Posts
      2,544
      Country Flag: United States
      If you look at a timing map for an EFI engine, you'll see it's much more complex than a mechanical-based setup. Having this level of authority and the knowledge of how to tune it, can have benefits in power and driveability. Plus the being able to compensate for changing temperature conditions.
      Red Forman: "The Mustang's front end is problematic; get yourself a Firebird."

    5. #5
      Join Date
      May 2005
      Location
      Rolla, MO
      Posts
      304
      I made the change in ignition components to allow my FITECH to control timing. It has done as the others have stated in allowing so much more control of the tune. How smoothly my car drives now is night and day difference. It has really taken the edge off the 041 cam in my Pontiac 455. Off idle response is much better, clutch engagement is smoother, engine load at cruise is lower according to the MAP readings. No downside that I have found yet.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Mar 2014
      Location
      Yuma, AZ
      Posts
      635
      Country Flag: United States
      I've done timing control on two Fitech units, I highly recommend doing it. Ease of tuning alone makes it worth it.

      With the Fitech unit, it just uses the points input on the MSD box to trigger the ignition. Because of this, I was able to keep the 2 step limiter on the MSD box functional. Your Mallory box may be similar, but if the EFI does the timing control you probably don't need the retard function of the box. The EFI should take care of that.
      Nelson
      1969 Chevelle "Cone Smasher" Family Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...uot?highlight=

      1984 "Rustang" GT, 5.0, 5 Speed Project
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...T-(Slow-Build)

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Aug 2010
      Location
      Seattle area
      Posts
      360
      I have a Crane HI-6TR for my 1979 Z- 28 RS Camaro Pro- touring car. .With a Weiand 142 mini-supercharger. With an HEI distributor and 15 lbs plus of boost. I use it to adjust it to the type of fuel I use. From premiun to high test racing gas.

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Oct 2014
      Location
      DFW, Texas
      Posts
      422
      Country Flag: United States
      I've installed a FiTech with timing and it seems to be working ok. The FiTech system in general is a bit clunky, software updates often brick ECUs, handhelds go out, the initial setup requires the handheld to be unplugged to avoid battery draw [which will eventually wear out the small connectors], etc.

      That said, I'll probably try a Holley Sniper w/timing next time for my Dodge Warlock. The distributor at the back of the motor in a truck makes for cumbersome timing adjustments, hitting a button sounds much better.

      1972 Plymouth 'Cuda - Not LS-swapped, 5.7L Hemi [MS3 Gold Box], T56 Magnum 6-speed - 'Cuda Build Page
      1976 Dodge D100 - Warlock
      2016 Subaru WRX - E30 Tune


    9. #9
      Join Date
      May 2017
      Location
      Dallas, TX
      Posts
      29
      Country Flag: United States
      I have Holley HP EFI's on both of my cars. One is a TBI, the other has MPFI. To me not having timing control is giving up a big part of the total engine management. I knew little about EFI when I started these projects, but went ahead with timing control. The way I see it is if you do not implement timing control, tune it up, then when you add timing control you will have to tune it up again. Just do the tune once with timing control, it's not all that hard.

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Posts
      345
      When I did my first EFI retro-fit on an old school muscle car (in the mid '90s), it was first implemented with spark timing control only. Using stock GM EFI parts off of newer vehicles, I didn't have a fuel delivery system put together yet. And wanting to drive the car over that Summer, pulled the EFI and dropped the carb back on. It was 100% better then using a mechanical distributor. The following Winter the fuel delivery system was installed for EFI. Getting the fueling correct is easy, the real gains are in the control of the spark advance. EFI without spark control just isn't worth the effort. Bob.

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Posts
      345
      When I did my first EFI retro-fit on an old school muscle car (in the mid '90s), it was first implemented with spark timing control only. Using stock GM EFI parts off of newer vehicles, I didn't have a fuel delivery system put together yet. And wanting to drive the car over that Summer, pulled the EFI and dropped the carb back on. It was 100% better then using a mechanical distributor. The following Winter the fuel delivery system was installed for EFI. Getting the fueling correct is easy, the real gains are in the control of the spark advance. EFI without spark control just isn't worth the effort. Bob. P.S. lets see if the formatting works on this post. Seems that there is an issue with this site removing the white-space formatting and running everything together...

    12. #12
      Join Date
      May 2005
      Location
      Rolla, MO
      Posts
      304
      Since going to timing control, I've been able to tune for mileage as well.

      Before, I was getting 9 MPG for city driving. Once I made the change it went up to 12 MPG. Some more tweaking of the tune and paying attention to my driving style, I was able to get 16 MPG on the last city loop (Mostly 35 and under with the occasional 55 speed limit, no steady state 70 mph highway)

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      So, I use a MSD 6530 http://www.msdperformance.com/produc...rip/parts/6530 with my carb setup currently. This box also allows me to control timing as well, but will only retard the timing on a MSD Pro-Billet distributor, not advance timing.

      So basically you lock the distributor out and mechanically set it at the highest advance you think you'll need and program in when and where it will retard the timing to be given certain parameters. It'll use both engine RPM and vacuum signal to retard the timing to your set parameter.

      I'm curious if this is similar to how the throttle body fuel injection setups control timing and\or mechanical distributors? Or will the brains of the FI setup advance and retard a distributor based on programmed parameters? What distributors do you use with the FI setups that control timing as well?

      I'm considering a swap to EFI and this is something I'd like to keep or incorporate because it really enhances street driving.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Posts
      2,544
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      So, I use a MSD 6530 http://www.msdperformance.com/produc...rip/parts/6530 with my carb setup currently. This box also allows me to control timing as well, but will only retard the timing on a MSD Pro-Billet distributor, not advance timing.

      So basically you lock the distributor out and mechanically set it at the highest advance you think you'll need and program in when and where it will retard the timing to be given certain parameters. It'll use both engine RPM and vacuum signal to retard the timing to your set parameter.

      I'm curious if this is similar to how the throttle body fuel injection setups control timing and\or mechanical distributors? Or will the brains of the FI setup advance and retard a distributor based on programmed parameters? What distributors do you use with the FI setups that control timing as well?

      I'm considering a swap to EFI and this is something I'd like to keep or incorporate because it really enhances street driving.
      Depends on the sophistication of the system. But in general, most EFI setups at least control timing based on throttle position, manifold pressure, coolant temperature, and air temperature (some may include a transmission input to smooth gear changes). This allows for compensation during cold start and warm up as well as varying ambient conditions and driving loads.
      Red Forman: "The Mustang's front end is problematic; get yourself a Firebird."

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Mar 2005
      Posts
      345
      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      I'm curious if this is similar to how the throttle body fuel injection setups control timing and\or mechanical distributors? Or will the brains of the FI setup advance and retard a distributor based on programmed parameters? What distributors do you use with the FI setups that control timing as well? I'm considering a swap to EFI and this is something I'd like to keep or incorporate because it really enhances street driving.
      I used a stock GM computer controlled distributor, small cap. GM also used large cap computer controlled distributors. The base distributor timing is set with a light with a running engine and the EST/BYPASS connector open. Usually in the 6° to 10° degree range. This sets up the cranking timing.

      Once the engine is over 400 RPM the ECM takes over timing. Newer GM systems can also control the cranking timing. The actual timing can be retarded some from the base setting, and advanced by more. Usually in the -3° through +42° from the base setting. This is a limitation of the distributor to prevent cross firing.

      The actual timing that gets used is pulled from various tables. The main spark table is based on RPM and MAP (load). Then there are other tables that are based on items such as engine coolant temperature and load. Then intake air temperature, and the detonation detection system.

      Bob.
      Last edited by a67; 08-04-2018 at 08:10 AM. Reason: Formatting

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Feb 2011
      Posts
      284
      Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
      I made the change in ignition components to allow my FITECH to control timing. It has done as the others have stated in allowing so much more control of the tune. How smoothly my car drives now is night and day difference. It has really taken the edge off the 041 cam in my Pontiac 455. Off idle response is much better, clutch engagement is smoother, engine load at cruise is lower according to the MAP readings. No downside that I have found yet.
      What distributor did you use for the Pontiac V8? I've heard the 301 turbo distys can be made to work.
      70 GTO - Alum 5.3/4L80e, 7875
      17 GT350

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by a67 View Post
      I used a stock GM computer controlled distributor, small cap. GM also used large cap computer controlled distributors. The base distributor timing is set with a light with a running engine and the EST/BYPASS connector open. Usually in the 6° to 10° degree range. This sets ups the cranking timing. Once the engine is over 400 RPM the ECM takes over timing. Newer GM systems can also control the cranking timing. The actual timing can be retarded some from the base setting, and advanced by more. Usually in the -3° through +42° from the base setting. This is a limitation of the distributor to prevent cross firing. The actual timing that gets used is pulled from various tables. The main spark table is based on RPM and MAP (load). Then there are other tables that are based on items such as engine coolant temperature and load. Then intake air temperature, and the detonation detection system. Bob.
      That is awesome... Thanks for the explanation, exactly what I was questioning.

      Is there a list of EFI setups that do control timing like you described above, say on a small cap GM distributor?
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Apr 2001
      Location
      The City of Fountains
      Posts
      15,971
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by SSLance View Post
      That is awesome... Thanks for the explanation, exactly what I was questioning.

      Is there a list of EFI setups that do control timing like you described above, say on a small cap GM distributor?
      Lance,

      I can't think of a single system that doesn't have timing control.

      Andrew
      1970 GTO Version 3.0
      1967 Cougar build
      GM High-Tech Performance feature
      My YouTube Channel Please Subscribe!
      Instagram @projectgattago
      Dr. EFI
      I deliver what EFI promises.
      Remote Holley EFI tuning.
      Please get in touch if I can be of service.

      "You were the gun, your voice was the trigger, your bravery was the barrel, your eyes were the bullets." ~ Her

    19. #19
      Join Date
      May 2005
      Location
      Rolla, MO
      Posts
      304
      I used MSD 8563 on my Pontiac. It plugged right into the FITECH. I also used the adjustable rotor from MSD. The worst part was buying a second cap to drill a hole in it so I could inspect the rotor phasing. $30-40 dollars just to mock everything up.

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by andrewb70 View Post
      Lance,

      I can't think of a single system that doesn't have timing control.

      Andrew
      Do they all allow you to tune the timing control also? And do they work with or without a timing controlled distributor?
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

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