Best autocross/ road course suspension options

[cmhyatt]

Looking to get opinions on suspension for a custom build. I am building a 69 Plymouth Valiant. I am looking for opinions on the best route for front suspension options. Using the stock rails is pretty much out of the question, at least in my opinion. Can't get a big enough tire under the fenders with frame rails that wide. So Im looking at buying a Detroit speed x gen 53" or a speedway motors clip for a nova and making everything work. Or building everything from scratch. I have the skills and ability to build everything from scratch but it should would take some time. I realize that Ron Sutton builds a really awesome suspension but that's not in the budget. Looking for options on some one to help design something with racing/ autocross in mind, or possibly buying something. Opinions please.

[rustomatic]

There's a guy on Bay Area Craigslist who has been trying to sell a complete late-model Camaro rear setup (IRS) for weeks. It's like $650. Do that, then match the width with, say, C5 or something like that in the front. If you want to stay Dodge, look into Challenger stuff. It might be super-wide, but at least you know the factory engineers did some/most things right regarding geometry and materials (especially with Corvette stuff). After years of bolt-on revisions, I'm quite happy with mostly stock C4 Corvette stuff (including brakes) in my Falcon, along with ridetech shocks and a better front sway bar. When you can do the work (cut, measure, plot, weld), the options open up considerably.

[Schwartz Performance]

Can't you copy Brandon's Falcon? ;)

-Dale

[Mean 69]

Unless your intent is to move the engine way back, one of the primary considerations is the steering. Specifically, the Rack and Pinion unit you choose will have a very big impact on the rest of the suspension, unless you have the coin to go to a custom width unit. The reason for this is that the typical width of a given readily available rack will drive the placement of the upper and lower control arm inner pivot points, in very strong consideration of managing bump steer. Well, that is if you give a doo-doo about actual performance.

A custom designed suspension system, well done, is unfortunately an expensive endeavor - it takes some time to do it correctly and if it is typically a one off, the engineering investment is hard to recover by building duplicate copies.

I can't recall, but does the Valiant share the same front suspension as the "relatives" (i.e. Cuda, etc)? I think it is narrower. Not a lot out there for either setup that will really rock out on the track.
Mark

[vette427-sbc]

What about a track warrior clip from Ron Sutton? No driving experience with mine yet, but the craftsmanship, parts included, and customer service are top notch. You can have it built to your specs (within reason) instead of modifying a clip designed for another car.

[cmhyatt]

It seems like pretty much anything to with c5 or new mopar stuff is all way to wide. The Valiant is only 70" wide.

[cmhyatt]

I can try to do Brandon's falcon, but I was trying to avoid cutting the fenders like he had to.

- - - Updated - - -

Unless your intent is to move the engine way back, one of the primary considerations is the steering. Specifically, the Rack and Pinion unit you choose will have a very big impact on the rest of the suspension, unless you have the coin to go to a custom width unit. The reason for this is that the typical width of a given readily available rack will drive the placement of the upper and lower control arm inner pivot points, in very strong consideration of managing bump steer. Well, that is if you give a doo-doo about actual performance.

A custom designed suspension system, well done, is unfortunately an expensive endeavor - it takes some time to do it correctly and if it is typically a one off, the engineering investment is hard to recover by building duplicate copies.

I can't recall, but does the Valiant share the same front suspension as the "relatives" (i.e. Cuda, etc)? I think it is narrower. Not a lot out there for either setup that will really rock out on the track.
Mark

The Valiant is quite a bit narrower than a cuda.

[cmhyatt]

All of the Ron Sutton stuff looks awesome, just a little out of my budget I think. I know it's not cheap to build quality stuff but I wish there was a middle ground. I have no problem building anything and everything, just help designing and achieving proper pinpoints.

[Oregon]

It sounds like you are comfortable with fabrication.

Why not purchase Ron's design service package and build it yourself based on his input?

[cmhyatt]

I'll have to reach out to him and inquire more about that option.

[vintageracer]

My experience is that a great autocross suspension is not the same as a great road course suspension. Wanting both is always a compromise towards one or the other.

I suggest you consider the question of which type of competition is more important/fun to YOU Autocross or Road Course?

After answering that question then do your shopping for the suspension that best meets the needs of what you really like to do and then do the best you can with the other type of competition. Just like driver's being a great autocross driver does not necessarily mean you are a great road course driver.

A big part of that equation can be what your driving and how it's setup as most folks do both types of events with the same vehicle and therein lies the "Compromise"!

[Rod]

A big part of that equation can be what your driving and how it's setup

completely agree!!!

[cmhyatt]

My experience is that a great autocross suspension is not the same as a great road course suspension. Wanting both is always a compromise towards one or the other.

I suggest you consider the question of which type of competition is more important/fun to YOU Autocross or Road Course?

After answering that question then do your shopping for the suspension that best meets the needs of what you really like to do and then do the best you can with the other type of competition. Just like driver's being a great autocross driver does not necessarily mean you are a great road course driver.

A big part of that equation can be what your driving and how it's setup as most folks do both types of events with the same vehicle and therein lies the "Compromise"!

I would really be able to go be competitive in both. I understand that compromise is necessary, but there has to be happy medium. I would love to learn the numbers as far as designing everything and building it myself. It have read tons about design but need/want an (expert) to help and guide.

[CSG]

I won every local level autocross I entered in my road race car. If I was building a car to do both in I would set it up as a road race car. I find the drivers that I compete against at the road course to be better drivers then most at the autocross so I need a better car at the road course. This is in wheel to wheel racing though so if you are doing time attack type stuff then I don't really know how those guys stack up.

[vintageracer]

I would really be able to go be competitive in both.

If that's that's the situation then first spend your money on attending TOP notch driving school and learn how to drive instead of throwing a bunch of money at a car. Everyone is a good driver. If you don't believe it just ask em!



The best car in the world is no good without a top notch driver!

[jetmech442]

I have the same goals as you for my LS2 69 442. The key factor for me was an adjustable 3 link with a watts link. I can adjust my Instant Center from 40-160% in ~30% increments. I plan to run above 130-160% for autocross and maybe 70% for Autobahn and Gingerbrook (chicago-ish road course). The Watts link allows me to change my rear roll center with a single bolt.-Easily changes from understeer to oversteer in 5 minutes. I also added adjustable frame mounted lower control arm mounts to be able to get some rear steer effects(although with the new Hellwig sway bar setup I don't think I will get enough suspension movement for these to make much of a difference.

I designed the entire system based on what I learned here on protouring with a Huuuge portion of that coming from Mr Suttons posts. I let a real good buddy do the welding since he is an experienced cage installed/fabricator.

all the info is available and it sounds like you have the fab experience, I say design your own!

[Rod]

just my 2 cents here

It have read tons about design

that's like reading about sit ups and and expecting a 6pack just by reading?

but need/want an (expert) to help and guide.

so you want someones intellectual property and experience from years of doing.....for free, so you can capitalize on that and resell it? anyone who knows what there doing will charge to consult, even Ron or myself will spew basic numbers but when it comes down to brass tacks of the build you get info with product purchases and/or a design package fee, sorry I wouldn't expect you to build my suspension for free, kinda the same thing

So Im looking at buying a Detroit speed x gen 53" or a speedway motors clip for a nova and making everything work. Or building everything from scratch. I have the skills and ability to build everything from scratch but it should would take some time. I realize that Ron Sutton builds a really awesome suspension but that's not in the budget. Looking for options on some one to help design something with racing/ autocross in mind, or possibly buying something. Opinions please

use the speedway Nove front clip, move the motor back into the firewall 8 inches, make frame rails from the Nova clip to the back and insert an universal IRS from art morrison (its all custom arms and narrowed axles) and uses off the shelf chevy 3rd member and hubs to ease the cost of future repairs