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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand

      Ridetech bump steer

      I have just had my full ridetech setup for my 68 Camaro tested and it has very bad bump steer. Just wondering if anyone else has had this problem. It certainly isn’t as advertised by ridetech. Would appreciate if any ridetech representatives are on here to answer my concerns. Would like to know how they test there kits to claim there bump steer figures. It has to pass certification here in New Zealand and as of today it has failed. I plan to modify to work correctly and wondering if anyone else has done the same. Cheers
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    2. #2
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
      Country Flag: United States
      Do you have the Tru-Turn upgrade?

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Sep 2010
      Location
      Beach Park IL
      Posts
      2,838
      Country Flag: United States
      Need more information.

      Define bumpsteer as you are experiencing it. Your build thread says this.
      my wheel alignment guy confirmed it has no bump steer he thought it would drive really well also
      What part failed inspection?
      Donny

      Support your local hot rod shop!

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Feb 2013
      Posts
      1,414
      Country Flag: United States
      I'm curious on these questions above as well.

      I also saw the post where your alignment guy also said he didn't see any bumpsteer problems. When you say you have very bad bumpsteer, what are you feeling? Did they fail the car due to something they felt or a part they think is faulty?

      With your car at driving height, what does the shock measure from the center of the lower eyelet to the hole in the subframe that the shock goes through?


      Ridetech Suspsension
      Tech Specialist
      Phone: 812.481.4734

      Project Fox
      1979 Trans Am

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      Yes, complete ridetech set up
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      Quote Originally Posted by Josh@ridetech View Post
      I'm curious on these questions above as well.

      I also saw the post where your alignment guy also said he didn't see any bumpsteer problems. When you say you have very bad bumpsteer, what are you feeling? Did they fail the car due to something they felt or a part they think is faulty?

      With your car at driving height, what does the shock measure from the center of the lower eyelet to the hole in the subframe that the shock goes through?
      Hey Josh
      So yes after I had a wheel alignment done I was told by the technician it had none. Unfortunately he didn't test the full movement of the suspension travel.
      At ride height the Toe angle is set at +1/8"
      At full compression the Toe angle is at -1/8"
      At full extension the Toe angle is at +3/4"

      All testing was done with shocks removed.

      I have been doing lots of test driving and it feels pretty good. I do have 15" tires and he reckons this will absorb a lot of the deflection.

      looks like I will need to modify either the steering arm or the tie rod stud to eliminate bump steer.

      Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
      Cheers
      Damien
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    7. #7
      Join Date
      Jul 2015
      Posts
      101
      Country Flag: United States
      What is limiting travel in extension, with the shocks removed?



    8. #8
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      Quote Originally Posted by krom View Post
      What is limiting travel in extension, with the shocks removed?
      Hey
      Nothing is limiting it, the toe angle numbers are as tested.
      I would like to know how ridetech measure bump steer?

      Cheers
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Location
      Des Moines, IA
      Posts
      586
      Country Flag: United States
      Here is how we measure bumpsteer. . .set the alignment, bolt a steel plate to each wheel mount surface, for rough measurements use two tape measures to measure between two plates, measurements are taken every 1/2" between suspension extension and compression. For detailed measurement we have a dial caliper version like you'll find at race car supply stores.

      You only stated, "Yes, complete ridetech set up". I'm still not 100% sure if you have the TruTurn system or not. Maybe some pictures of your setup would help?

      Now, here's where I think you may see issues. . .you measured from full droop to full compression without a shock absorber installed. The shock limits travel, so you are measuring for bumpsteer in a situation the suspension can never reach. We have "dummy shocks" that have the oil and nitrogen removed so we can more easily cycle the suspension while doing these tests. You need to measure only the actual compression and extension.

    10. #10
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
      Country Flag: United States
      He has Tru-Turn. You can see it in his build thread.

      If they insist on removing the shock I would add a bump stop to the upper control arm to limit droop to the same level.

      Don
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Apr 2006
      Location
      Des Moines, IA
      Posts
      586
      Country Flag: United States
      Or you can just take the spring off the shock and cycle the suspension. Though the shocks are gas charged, you can still easily compress the suspension.

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Nov 2016
      Location
      Sulphur, La
      Posts
      598
      Like already stated your issues are that you are checking bump at a wheel location that is no where near the range the car can see in use. I would also question that tech who said it had "no bumpsteer". Everything has some degree of bumpsteer it just needs to be at an acceptable number.

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      957
      Make sure you secure the steering wheel so that it absolutely will not move as you cycle the suspension. The main area to look at is the bump travel relative to the static height, this needs to be minimized "first," droop - within a reasonable amount of wheel travel - is secondary but also important.

      If the numbers you show for static ride height to full bump are real, you have a significant issue. This can most likely be resolved by a simple bump steer kit but I would be surprised if this is real, check all the above again. And agreed, with the small-ish (no offense) tires and 15" wheels, the issue will be masked relative to large diameter/wide tires, which would be undriveable if those number were real.

      Mark

    14. #14
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,371
      Quote Originally Posted by Tweak View Post
      Hey Josh
      So yes after I had a wheel alignment done I was told by the technician it had none. Unfortunately he didn't test the full movement of the suspension travel.
      At ride height the Toe angle is set at +1/8"
      At full compression the Toe angle is at -1/8"
      At full extension the Toe angle is at +3/4"

      All testing was done with shocks removed.

      I have been doing lots of test driving and it feels pretty good. I do have 15" tires and he reckons this will absorb a lot of the deflection.

      looks like I will need to modify either the steering arm or the tie rod stud to eliminate bump steer.

      Your thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
      Cheers
      Damien

      We would need to know the caster and camber settings as well...that can alter the bumpsteer numbers, though not near as much as you have indicated. As Britt indicated, over-compression or over extension (beyond the limits of the coilover) will affect the overall toe change. The fact that you are seeing excessive toe change on full extension (which may exceed feasible travel limits) tells me that the suspension might be traveling in an area it would never get to if a coilover was installed. Can you send us your toe change graph?
      Bret Voelkel
      Director of Innovation Fox Powered Vehicles Group
      Founder/ Former Owner
      RideTech/Air Ride Technologies, Inc.

      How do you spell Impossible?

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      Quote Originally Posted by bret View Post
      We would need to know the caster and camber settings as well...that can alter the bumpsteer numbers, though not near as much as you have indicated. As Britt indicated, over-compression or over extension (beyond the limits of the coilover) will affect the overall toe change. The fact that you are seeing excessive toe change on full extension (which may exceed feasible travel limits) tells me that the suspension might be traveling in an area it would never get to if a coilover was installed. Can you send us your toe change graph?
      Hey Bret
      I really appreciate you getting involved.
      I plan to set car up on stands this weekend, take springs off and run suspension through its travel with shocks in. I will build similar bump steer test jig to the guy certifying my car. Will take photos to show whats happening.
      Im happy to send these threw to you via PM or post on this thread as there is loads of guys on here with setting front end experience and happy to help.
      Cheers
      Damien
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Location
      Indiana
      Posts
      1,371
      Quote Originally Posted by Tweak View Post
      Hey Bret
      I really appreciate you getting involved.
      I plan to set car up on stands this weekend, take springs off and run suspension through its travel with shocks in. I will build similar bump steer test jig to the guy certifying my car. Will take photos to show whats happening.
      Im happy to send these threw to you via PM or post on this thread as there is loads of guys on here with setting front end experience and happy to help.
      Cheers
      Damien
      Post up your results...I am confident of what you'll find if all the components are there and assembled corretly. If they are not, then we will all learn together! The end goal for all of is the same...to learn how and why a suspension works, and how that makes our cars happier.
      Bret Voelkel
      Director of Innovation Fox Powered Vehicles Group
      Founder/ Former Owner
      RideTech/Air Ride Technologies, Inc.

      How do you spell Impossible?

    17. #17
      Join Date
      Aug 2004
      Posts
      957
      "The end goal for all of is the same...to learn how and why a suspension works, and how that makes our cars happier."

      Very well put, sir.
      Mark

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand

      Bump steer

      Ok, I have tested my suspension for bump steer with everything in except the spring
      Ride height toe +5mm (13/64)
      Full extended toe +16mm (5/8)
      Full compressed toe -13mm (33/64)

      Complete ridetech with truturn.
      Happy to answer any questions to hopefully help sort.
      CheersName:  BB21D710-2828-4782-B983-B581723D6759.jpg
Views: 1373
Size:  159.9 KB
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand
      From an article on hot rod forum
      “If the tie-rod line passes over the IC, then we will have bump-out as the wheel travels up, and bump-in when the wheel travels down.”
      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Nov 2006
      Location
      Mountain Springs, Texas
      Posts
      4,488
      Country Flag: United States
      I think more data points on the bump steer curve are needed. Something like this:

      Don
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      1969 Camaro - LSA 6L90E AME sub/IRS
      1957 Buick Estate Wagon
      1959 El Camino - Ironworks frame
      1956 Cameo - full C5 suspension/drivetrain
      1959 Apache Fleetside

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