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    Results 21 to 35 of 35
    1. #21
      Join Date
      Nov 2016
      Location
      Rockford, IL
      Posts
      31
      I'll weigh in a little on this topic. I frequent our local Blackhawk Farms Raceway track and also Road America to spectate mostly and here in the midwest people just don't take their ProTouring cars to the road courses like people do on the west coast. I had my 70 Camaro to our short Blkhwk Farms track this past summer and kind of found it a total mis-match. My Camaro runs pretty strong but I'm a little rusty on my driving. But the real thing going on here is the amount newer Z06 Vettes and 1LE Camaro's out of Chicago are burning up the track. There are old guys like me with new Z06's going to the track for the first time and just driving around everyone else. With the exception of the really diehard guys like Steilow and Brian Hobaugh that spend extreme amounts of time and money to get there cars to work and the talent/ experience to said drivers most of our ProTouring cars just can't keep up. I read a article somewhere this past summer written by one of west coast hot shoe that spent considerable time refining his 69 Camaro to work on the track. The he bought a C5 Corvette and said there is no comparison. He could just drive the vette where he had to just throw the Camaro through the corners to make it go fast. The whole ProTouring thing is just a repeat of the ProStreet scene that started in the 80's. We want to look the part but really have no intention of every really pounding on these cars much.
      As a side note on the new fast cars I'm not liking what I'm seeing with drivers buying the super fast vettes, camaros, GTR's and then pushing them to the max speed without safety equipment. How about 180mph at Road America in a Z06 with only a standard seatbelt. No Thanks!! I raced 800 - 900 hp off road trucks for 10 years and like all true race cars safety equipment abounds. I want to do more track events but not with my Camaro. I'm looking for older former retired SCCA race car that has full cage and the proper safety equipment to use as a track car. It will not be as fast as a Z06 or 1LE but a least I have protection in the event one of these these guys has a brain fart and tries to run over someone. Besides really think about the purpose of track day events.
      Mike

      I'm old, gray hair, balding, and retired, and I'm still wrenching on cars. I thought wisdom came with old age.

      70 Camaro, 406 sb, 6spd, 4:10 gear, BMR Suspension


    2. #22
      Join Date
      Dec 2010
      Location
      Fredericksburg, VA.
      Posts
      3,155
      Country Flag: United States
      Some of us have built PT cars that actually see track time.

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      Steve Hayes
      "Dust Off"
      68 Camaro

      Given sufficient initial acceleration, even pigs can fly!

    3. #23
      Join Date
      Apr 2011
      Posts
      52
      JDMan,

      Looking good; you have any lap times to post vs modern cars?

    4. #24
      Join Date
      Jun 2011
      Location
      SoCal
      Posts
      885
      Country Flag: United States
      I found the results from the 2016 Super Chevy Muscle Car Challenge. Same Road Course as 2017

      www.totalcostinvolved.com
      "Quality doesn't cost, it pays"

    5. #25
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Posts
      227
      Quote Originally Posted by TheJDMan View Post
      Some of us have built PT cars that actually see track time
      [
      Well-played. While no doubt some cars are built just for show ("faux touring," perhaps?) I've been under the impression that track time is an integral part of the PT experience.

    6. #26
      Join Date
      Aug 2005
      Location
      Hamilton, NJ
      Posts
      4,291
      Country Flag: United States
      Uh-oh, its the "what is pro touring" question.....
      Scott from NJ.

      Vent Windows Forever! ...

      Feather-light suspension, Konis just couldn't hold
      I'm so glad I took a look inside your showroom doors

    7. #27
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
      Posts
      5,821
      Country Flag: United States
      Let's not open that can-o-worms.

      From a cost/benefit standpoint, building an older pony or musclecar to try and keep up with modern technology is a losing proposition. There really is only one reason to try and build such a creature; the love of the car. It has to be love, because there is a lot of pain and expense involved that will never get the car to modern technology levels. When the best automotive brains on the planet have an unlimited budget to build something, it's kinda hard to keep up with that.

      My co-driver has a total of $23k into a 2001 Z06 (not including consumables). All he does is change tires, oil, brakes, etc. No headaches. I can get out of the Camaro, take his out on the same track, and run 2-3 seconds faster, but there is no feeling of satisfaction (that love thing again) or similar driving experience.

      There is something to be said about the satisfaction of taking an older car, driving 120 miles each way, get 24.6mpg @ 73.4mph average speed, run four 20 minute track sessions, and feeling your work come together. That's hard to get from a modern car.

      I used to over-amp myself on trying to keep up with both modern tech and the ever-changing PT world of better and better parts. In the end, I find it far more enjoyable to spend the day at a track day with my friends, seeing if the new mods to the car work, and try to suck a little less at driving each session. I had a riot of a time at Willow Springs on Sunday and came home with a list of to-do's for the car that will enhance performance without breaking the bank, both in time and cash.
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    8. #28
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      NorthEast Muscle Car Challenge 2017 results.

      Early Model go here...

      http://www.orangeconeracing.com/even...d=264&op=place

      Late model go here

      http://www.orangeconeracing.com/even...d=265&op=place

      Pretty good drivers and well prepared cars in both groups.

      For some reason I can't get the result for Midwest Muscle Cars 2017 to load which would show how my car did against other early and late model cars at Putnam Park.
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    9. #29
      Join Date
      Aug 2012
      Location
      Peoria, AZ
      Posts
      1,758
      Country Flag: United States
      Here are the results from MotorState 2017 at Gingerman, again, plenty of good drivers in well prepped cars in both early and late model.

      https://www.motorstate.com/images/MS..._BestTimes.pdf
      Lance
      1985 Monte Carlo SS Street Car

    10. #30
      Join Date
      Dec 2012
      Posts
      227
      Quote Originally Posted by CarlC View Post
      Let's not open that can-o-worms.
      .
      Whoops...wasn't trying to start something....

    11. #31
      Join Date
      Oct 2004
      Posts
      419
      Quote Originally Posted by Aficionado View Post
      Whoops...wasn't trying to start something....
      No, I think it was good to evoke a response like Carl's. It's also proof we can have civil discussions on the Internet (I was losing faith that it was no longer possible). I am for sure on the faux side with my car. It was on purpose to keep me off the track because I know we're that road leads. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford to go down that path. Until then my tires will remain un-balled.

    12. #32
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Newbury Park, CA
      Posts
      5,821
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by alocker View Post
      No, I think it was good to evoke a response like Carl's. It's also proof we can have civil discussions on the Internet (I was losing faith that it was no longer possible).
      Exactly. Too often in the past topics such as defining Pro-Touring quickly go off the rails. Can't we all just get along? (faith hopefully somewhat restored ;-) )
      VaporWorx. We Give You Gas http://www.vaporworx.com

    13. #33
      Join Date
      Apr 2011
      Posts
      52
      this is great info. thanks to all for you help.

    14. #34
      Join Date
      Mar 2007
      Location
      Florida
      Posts
      2,391
      Country Flag: United States
      Quote Originally Posted by fastd View Post
      I've been looking but haven't really found much info:
      can please post their laps times from various well known tracks around the country. Just curious how much road course performance that some pro touring builds can get vs modern cars.

      I am surprised how little info there is in this regard.

      Ideally you would include some info about your suspension.

      Interested to know how well pro touring car compare to a new Camaro, Mustang, etc.
      Part of the lack of lap times for PT type cars might be that most of the folks who do take their classic to road tracks sign up for the entry level HPDE type classes where no one is supposed to be "racing" or keeping track of lap times (and they're not experienced track drivers anyway). In entry level classes passing is usually only allowed with a point by and then only on certain designated straights. With the restraints it would be hard to get optimal lap times even if they were experienced drivers. Can't tell you how many times I'd catch up to a more powerful car through cornering sections only to have them not give a point by at the next passing opportunity and sprint away on the straight, it's an ego thing (and they don't want to have to follow me the whole straight at less than their full speed). Next cornering section I'd catch up and have to slow down. If we go a couple laps like that I'll pull in the hot pits for a short stop to separate us.

      First track day I did back was at Lime Rock Park back around the turn of the century. There was an old guy there with a very old Morgan or something from maybe the 40's with open wheels and big tall skinny tires. He'd go around the car with a leather hammer between track sessions banging on the tri winged center nut of each wheel that held it on to be sure they were tight for the next session. On track I doubt he got much over 70 MPH but with scarf waving in the breeze and a big smile on his face he went round and round every session having a blast. I'm like that guy in a way. I never timed any of my laps, just enjoy going out and driving. I've run at Lime Rock, the old Moroso, Road Atlanta, Sebring, and PBIR.

      The thing I've wondered about is, are our PT/G-machine type cars faster than the race cars that were actually used in say Trans Am racing back when they were new? Many have more power and with today's suspensions and tire technology it wouldn't surprise me if PT cars are lapping quicker times than the heroes of yesteryear.

      Everybody likes pics so here's a couple on Sebring when a few of us with cars about the same speed were playing lead/follow and changing positions each lap to see other guys lines, braking points etc.



      Last edited by NOT A TA; 12-17-2017 at 07:48 PM.

    15. #35
      Join Date
      Oct 2005
      Location
      Long Island NY
      Posts
      188
      1.08 Lime Rock.

      Attached Images Attached Images      

      Peter Bergman
      71 Dart GT, Stroker SB, Built For The Turns!


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