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    1. #1
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
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      Portsmouth NH
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      Wet Sump vs Dry Sump?

      Hello All, I am making the conversion to the LS world. I kicked and fought the temptation and finally gave in to all the benefits of 50+ years of development.



      I am trying to decide on what LSx will be the best fit for my application. I am going to fit it into a Pro-Tour style 1969 Camaro. Full Ride Tech setup including Tru-Turn and Tiger cage, floater rear and T56 mag. The new mill will be displacing the 350 SBC that used to live in the engine compartment. It was a loyal 450HPish piece that got the job done for almost two decades! But out with old and in with the new!

      I will be using the car as a regular driver but it will also be flogged regularly on the race track (Club Motorsports, Loudon, Palmer, Thompson, etc). I want about 600 HPish and reliability. So to the question.

      Is a dry sump required to achieve this or can I get by with a wet sump? Please let me know your experience's as I am completely new to the LS world. I know a good road race pan would be required for a wet setup and would like to know your experiences. Putting a decent LS into the car is a huge investment for me and killing it over a few thousand $ is not very smart. However a reliable wet sump setup would be a big plus!

      Please let me know your experiences and thoughts.

      Cheers, Brew!
      1969 Camaro (Small Tyre Restomod/mild Protour) 245/40/18 F, 275/35/18 R, stock frame, full Ridetech suspension, LS engine, T56 Mag, Wilwood Brakes. A driver car.


    2. #2
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      Wake Forest,NC
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      What kind of dry sump are we talking about here?
      LS7 or a true external pump?
      Both are better than a wet sump but need to be set-up properly to be effective.
      The internal LS oil pumps start to cavitate above 6,300 rpm.
      I don't like wet sumps for a car that will see track duty, the grip level of the tires now has gotten to the point that it's hard to control the oil.
      If you head down the wet sump path a pan with a good diamond shaped trap door baffle and an accusump are your best chance of keeping it alive.

    3. #3
      Join Date
      Sep 2014
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      Sun City West, AZ
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      Also the sloshing of the oil in a wet pan is not the only issue you need to worry about. Its the oil on top not able to drain back to the wetsump in order to keep the pump from not picking up the oil is another issue with wet sumps. Depending on the heads, the use of oil restrictors etc. at hi RPMS the valve covers like to fill up with oil quickly thus, not allowing enough oil in the sump and in a turn with G's you will have oil starvation and that will eventually lead to a failure.

      If you use a high volume oil pump that will exacerbate the oil starvation problem.

      The answer is: "Dry Sump". Spend a few extra $$$$$ now or a bunch of $$$$$$$$$$$$ later with some downtime. A few extra $$$$ now will save you a bunch of $$$$$$$$$$ later.
      --
      Kenny Mitchell
      [email protected]

    4. #4
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      10,603
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      If you decide to go dry sump, listen to Tim and don't be misled into thinking an LS7 is a real dry sump. At best, it's a wet sump/dry sump hybrid, and most LS7 guys who spend any time at the track end up supplementing the GM system with a real scavenge side external pump.

      If you're building from scratch, get a real dry sump system. There are lots of threads here and on CorvetteForum that discuss this at length.
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    5. #5
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Location
      Portsmouth NH
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      Great info guys! I really appreciate it. I certainly don't want to cheap out on something that will add the reliability I need and want for my application. I will search the forum for info on this.

      Directly regarding this I am actually looking at a turn key type of engine setup. Does anyone have any recommended builders for this?

      Cheers, Brew
      1969 Camaro (Small Tyre Restomod/mild Protour) 245/40/18 F, 275/35/18 R, stock frame, full Ridetech suspension, LS engine, T56 Mag, Wilwood Brakes. A driver car.

    6. #6
      Join Date
      Sep 2014
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      Sun City West, AZ
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      Lingenfelter is my engine builder
      --
      Kenny Mitchell
      [email protected]

    7. #7
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      Here is my opinion based on my own experience. Unless you want to fabricate, Weld, modify the car to accommodate a dry sump tank in a bay that's already space constrained, go with a wet sump. Unless your car is track built it won't hit the g-forces that would require a dry sump tank anyways. The pain it is to install a tank and the cost of hose and the adapters/fittings is ridiculous. Looking back, I wish I saved myself the trouble and went wet sump. The tank, fittings, hoses, adapters ran well over $1000.

      Looking at cars at OUSCI and LS Fest, most that I saw were all wet Sump with stock pans with aftermarket baffles.
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    8. #8
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
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      Portsmouth NH
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      Thanks badazz81z28 for your thoughts.

      It is a tough call. I am setting up the car pretty seriously for the track. I road race motorcycles and also instruct track days, thus I love riding on the track. My goal is to have the car capable of a good romp on the race track at track days about 10 or so days a year. the rest of the time it would be a fun street car for sporty driving.

      I am very seriously considering getting a membership at a local private track that is incredible (http://www.clubmotorsports.com). If I do that I will be using the car even more on the track, plus many of the other tracks I already ride my bikes on.

      This is why the thought of doing the dry sump. If it saves me from killing the motor once it was worth the expense and difficulty's of installation. However a well designed wet sump plus maybe an accusump might also be fine. That is why I posted the question.

      I really like hearing and learning from the experienced people on here. This will also be my first LS motor and I do not have any knowledge and experience with the nuances involves with them.

      Keep the info coming! It is what makes this site so good.

      Cheers, Brew
      1969 Camaro (Small Tyre Restomod/mild Protour) 245/40/18 F, 275/35/18 R, stock frame, full Ridetech suspension, LS engine, T56 Mag, Wilwood Brakes. A driver car.

    9. #9
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
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      Orlando, FL
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      Quote Originally Posted by Brew
      I am setting up the car pretty seriously for the track. I road race motorcycles and also instruct track days, thus I love riding on the track. My goal is to have the car capable of a good romp on the race track at track days about 10 or so days a year. the rest of the time it would be a fun street car for sporty driving.
      I don't think this is even a hard call given that. You need a dry sump system. A real one, not some cheap-ass $1000 system (sorry BadAzz). Get something with at least two scavenge stages, and 2.5 gallons of oil capacity. Learn about and put in a proper PCV and self-draining catch-cans. Do all that when you build the car, and not when you're replacing the block after a rod went through it.

      That's my take, anyway.
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    10. #10
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      Quote Originally Posted by parsonsj View Post
      I don't think this is even a hard call given that. You need a dry sump system. A real one, not some cheap-ass $1000 system (sorry BadAzz). Get something with at least two scavenge stages, and 2.5 gallons of oil capacity. Learn about and put in a proper PCV and self-draining catch-cans. Do all that when you build the car, and not when you're replacing the block after a rod went through it.

      That's my take, anyway.

      Yeah, my engine isn't anything special. It's the stock GM system on the LS7.
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    11. #11
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      Quote Originally Posted by Bad
      Yeah, my engine isn't anything special. It's the stock GM system on the LS7.
      You can upgrade that to a much better system with an external scavenge pump. You'll need to pull the pan which is the hardest part of the job.
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    12. #12
      Join Date
      Nov 2012
      Location
      Sacramento, CA
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      I agree with Tim.

      I'll add, that in my experience, how much oiling system is needed, is based on how high the G forces are and for how long.

      Some basic Pro Touring car with TW400 275s & modest bolt on suspension upgrades can run autocross & SOME low speed road courses with a good road race wet sump pan like Canton.

      But if we have a good suspension setup & good TW200 tires, we'll hurt the engine on most road courses unless we add an accusump.

      And if we've got a well designed suspension & 315s or 335s ... running on any of the fast road courses ... especially the Rivals ... a good multi stage dry sump is the only way to ensure we don't starve the engine of oil.


      Our company is running 37 Holiday specials on everything from wheels, brakes & suspension to engines, clutches & oil systems.

      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...gines-amp-More

    13. #13
      Join Date
      Mar 2013
      Location
      Napier, New Zealand
      Posts
      220
      Country Flag: New Zealand

      I went dry sump

      Yeah I went ls7 style drysump on my 408 yeah it's a lot of work and cost associated with it. I did it to be different and add a bit of cool. I modified a ls7 oil pan. factorName:  FB_IMG_1511979355351.jpg
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      Damien
      Napier, New Zealand
      Project Page: https://www.pro-touring.com/showthread.php?99096-Project-Camaro-68-P-T-Muscle
      Next Project: 1956 Chevy Truck, Full C3 Suspension, Nascar Inspired

    14. #14
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      Here's mine
      Attached Images Attached Images  
      1970 Camaro/DSE build


      Are you driver enough? Maybe....come on blue!
      https://www.pro-touring.com/threads/...71#post1147371

    15. #15
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
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      Here's a proper dry sump setup :

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      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    16. #16
      Join Date
      Mar 2009
      Location
      Wake Forest,NC
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      I'm a big fan of the Dailey Engineering pump/pan set-ups. They make a really good durable pump and the plumbing is simplified with their billet pan.
      Here's what my 5 stage looks like but their 3 stage works well for most.




    17. #17
      Join Date
      Jan 2014
      Location
      Portsmouth NH
      Posts
      247
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      Thanks Guys! The pictures help alot.

      Tim & John, What pans work with a stock sub in a 69 Camaro with rear steer and ridetech Truturn?

      I am considering the Dailey, Aviaid and ARE systems. Love to hear your experiences with these brands and your thoughts. They all seem well made and solid.
      1969 Camaro (Small Tyre Restomod/mild Protour) 245/40/18 F, 275/35/18 R, stock frame, full Ridetech suspension, LS engine, T56 Mag, Wilwood Brakes. A driver car.

    18. #18
      Join Date
      Sep 2014
      Location
      Sun City West, AZ
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      Quote Originally Posted by Motobrewmaster View Post
      Thanks Guys! The pictures help alot.

      Tim & John, What pans work with a stock sub in a 69 Camaro with rear steer and ridetech Truturn?

      I am considering the Dailey, Aviaid and ARE systems. Love to hear your experiences with these brands and your thoughts. They all seem well made and solid.
      I have never heard anything negative about these three Dry Sump Systems. I have the Aviaid System because that is the System Lingenfelter put on with my engine build in my C4 Corvette.
      --
      Kenny Mitchell
      [email protected]

    19. #19
      Join Date
      Jun 2001
      Location
      Orlando, FL
      Posts
      10,603
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      I've used the Aviaid system in several cars, including one of my own. Good stuff, and recommended.
      John Parsons

      UnRivaled Rides -- Modern upgrades for your ride.

      UnRivaled Rides recent project -- LS9-powered 69 Camaro

    20. #20
      Join Date
      Mar 2022
      Posts
      3
      How is the dry sump system that comes with the LT4 motor?





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