C-clip vs Ford ends/bearings

[TheBandit]

I have been having a hard time determining which option is better for my application. My car is mostly street driven, but I also want autocross the car at least a few times a year and maybe do a few track days. It has a little over 400rwhp currently going through a 12bolt with stock axles, clutch type posi and 3.73s. I want to narrow the rear and use OEM discs. I'm thinking "LS1" rears because they have a decent size rotor, integral shoe parking brake and bolt directly to the GM pattern housing ends. My 12 bolt is leaking from all seals and I have also been thinking about narrowing it 1" each side to improve wheel fitment on commonly available 0 offset wheels.

I am leaning towards using Moser 7900FM housing ends with tapered SET20 bearings and custom length axles from Strange, Moser, Dutchman or the likes. But I could also keep the original GM ends and use upgraded c-clip axles. It's important to me that whatever I use be safe and reliable. I am a little concerned about potential sealing issues with the Ford ends. I am not sure if I should be concerned about knock back if I use c clip axles with the c floating "LS1" brakes calipers.

Any advice or other considerations ?

[andrewb70]

Hey Clint,

I have a stock 70 Mustang 9" in the Cougar with Strange axles. This is not a turning car and mostly a street (99%)/strip car. With the aftermarket axles, I don't see a way for the ends to cause leaking. The bearing outer race has a groove with an o-ring and it seals against the inside of the housing end. Seems to work very well.

In the GTO I have a 12 bolt with Moser c-clip axles and LS1 rear brakes. You definitely want to retain floating calipers in the rear because of axle end-play. I don't do much auto crossing in that car, but I have done numerous track and auto cross events in the past, and have not had issues.

Personally, I prefer the way that 9" axles are retained, but for what you and I do without cars, it probably doesn't make much difference.

Andrew

[CDR]

IMO C-clip axles would be OK for the use you described. You can have the housing narrowed 1 1/16" per side and use off the shelf early Nova axles from Moser or Dutchman.

If it is within your budget then upgrading to Ford ends is certainly better, safer and stronger. I have been using Dutchman Super Set 20 bearings for a short time now and they seem to eliminate the all too common axle seal leak from the standard Set 20.

[TheBandit]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I appreciate your thoughts on this.

IMO C-clip axles would be OK for the use you described. You can have the housing narrowed 1 1/16" per side and use off the shelf early Nova axles from Moser or Dutchman.

Thanks for the idea. Using shelf axles saves a fair amount of money over custom length. If I went this route, I suppose I would reuse my housing ends and just section out the tubing by 1-1/16". I would use alignment pucks and a bar to get the ends back on straight.

If it is within your budget then upgrading to Ford ends is certainly better, safer and stronger. I have been using Dutchman Super Set 20 bearings for a short time now and they seem to eliminate the all too common axle seal leak from the standard Set 20.

Those are interesting. It looks like they have two outter seals, an inner seal, and yet another seal around the race for a total of 4 seals. I assume you have to grease pack the bearings since they are not wetted?

[CDR]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I appreciate your thoughts on this.



Thanks for the idea. Using shelf axles saves a fair amount of money over custom length. If I went this route, I suppose I would reuse my housing ends and just section out the tubing by 1-1/16". I would use alignment pucks and a bar to get the ends back on straight.



Those are interesting. It looks like they have two outter seals, an inner seal, and yet another seal around the race for a total of 4 seals. I assume you have to grease pack the bearings since they are not wetted?

Yes you are correct. The Super Set 20 set up is very well thought out. The only draw back is that you have to run a specific Dutchman bearing retainer plate that matches your brake package. Their billet outer seal housing has different dimensions than the standard outer seal so to properly load the tapered bearing the correct bearing retainer plate must be used. The Bearing retainer plates and outer seal housing can be reused though when it comes time for new bearings and seals.

[TheBandit]

Thanks CDR for the reply. I will contact Dutchman and see what else they can tell me about that setup. I might want to go that route if it uses bearings and seals that are readily available and it's compatible with the "LS1" rear brakes.

Any other opinions on c-clip vs. Ford bearings?

[TheBandit]

I spent some time on the phone with Dutchman. They were very helpful explaining the design and requirements for the super set 20 bearing/seal system. It is dimensionally setup to work with a few specific aftermarket brake packages and it must be used with a standard Ford bolt pattern housing end. There are two lip seals between the retainer and the axle, an o-ring seal between the outer race and the housing, and a lip seal between the axle housing and the wedding/retainer ring. I'd say that is throwing in the sink as far as seals go. Unfortunately with the exception of one seal, the wear items (bearing and other seals) are single-source, meaning you can only get them from Dutchman. They also require Dutchman-made axles. The cost of a pair of axles with a pair of super set 20 bearings is about $500.

While I like the design, I'm not keen on using single-source wear items or being stuck with either using aftermarket brakes or reworking something. It's important to me to be able to get parts off the shelf when they wear out.



I think upgraded c-clip axles may be meet my needs. They should be strong enough for my application, they allow the use of readily available bearings and seals, and they are available in a shelf length that meets my narrowing needs. I could reuse my existing housing ends and bolt-on the LS1 brakes. Curious if anyone disagrees strongly?

[*i2ayman*]

Hey guys, can i get a quick bit of advice on a closely related topic while we're here.

I've got factory 12 bolt in my 68 camaro, with standard axles and open centre. I was about to pull the trigger on a new 913A555 (30 spline) truetrac centre and some 3.55 gears, when i noticed an advert for some fresh (1000k/m old) 33 spline yukon axles from a 67 camaro 12 bolt. The guy selling has tubbed car and shortened the 12 bolt down to suit and required new axles. From my research i'm only able to find yukon 33 spline axles for camaro supplied with c-clip eliminators. He assures me they run a standard 12 bolt style bearing, and went straight into his OE housing without modification.

Do i bother with getting these 33 spline axles and change to a 914A576 (33 spline) truetrac centre and the same 3.55 gears.

Are the 30 spline factory axles are plenty strong enough for a mild 454/TH400 street driven combo? or do i need to be doing an upgrade while i'm here?

[andrewb70]

^^^Seems like a lot of work for perhaps marginal gain, give the "mild 454/TH400 street driven combo."

Andrew

[TheBandit]

I just got off the phone with Jake at Strange engineering. He said they do not have issues with getting the tapered set20 bearings to seal and in fact strongly recommended the tapered bearing for street applications, but they have a different approach to things than what Moser does. With the Strange housing ends, the bearing is not flush mount and sits proud of the axle flange by about 1/8". The LS1 backing plate is used to secure the bearing and seal against the housing, but there is an intentional gap between the axle housing flange and the backing plate. That goes against most of what I understand about bolted joints/flanges, but it does ensure that the seal is compressed and explains why they don't have issues with sealing. I'll have to think about that idea.

[andrewb70]

For what it's worth, I've always had a good experience with Strange. I run their axles in the Cougar and don't have any leaking issues. I also measured lateral and axial (?) runout and it was under .003".

Andrew

[CDR]

The 1/8" protruding beyond the housing flange end is actually the norm. It is the thickness of a drum brake backing plate in stock form. Strange has developed a special housing end that uses an inner seal that seals on a special bearing retainer ring. Somewhat similar to Dutchman's super set20 but Strange uses a stock outer seal.

[TheBandit]

The 1/8" protruding beyond the housing flange end is actually the norm. It is the thickness of a drum brake backing plate in stock form.

Yes but in this case the 1/8" would not be filled by a backing plate. It would be just a gap between the backing plate and the axle housing flange.

Strange has developed a special housing end that uses an inner seal that seals on a special bearing retainer ring. Somewhat similar to Dutchman's super set20 but Strange uses a stock outer seal.

They didn't talk about this at all when I was on the phone. It sounded like the only seal used would be the standard set20 seal. The housing end would be their standard H1143 end. Do you have a link to info on what you're talking about?

[CDR]

Sorry I don't have a link or a part # for the housing ends. The bearing retainer ring or wedding ring as they call it is #A1021B. The special inner seal part # is A1030C. The inner seal only fits their special end, it has a larger OD than standard Ford inner seals
When I was working on one of these setups the sales person I dealt with was not up to speed on these parts. It may be an older design that they aren't continuing with, I don't know.
I have to laugh when sales persons say that they don't have issues with Set 20 seals leaking. It is a major issue in the aftermarket world. Currie and Strange deny its a problem and Moser blames it on Timken. I have to think if it were not an issue Dutchman and Strange would not have come up with a design to run an inner seal with the Set 20 bearing.

[gator68428]

I just bought the Strange GM 10 & 12 Bolt Hybrid Axle Package With Special Eliminator kit & 1/2″ Studs. P1011GOT (A1100 eliminator)
For my 8.5" 10 bolt. Since I needed a new carrier I went with 30 splined (vs the 28 spline the 72 Nova housing originally had).

Just got it in today and it looks great. Beefy axles, and massive diameter for the tapered bearing. Starting to install now.

Much beefier when compared to my 28 splined axle.

And the upgraded bearing will help a lot too I'm sure. You can see the wear on the 28 spline axle from the stock bearings contacting the axle directly with no inner race. This was a brand new replacement axle in 2014 and only has <5000 miles and maybe 10 autocrossed and 6 track days. Apparently the 10 bolt was not built for this. I recently developed a vibration on the interstate and suspect these damaged axles were the cause.

I'm confident this new kit will solve all of these issues: -pad knockback, -lateral wheel motion, -overstress of the bearing surface, -overstress of the axle, -drag strip proof strength
The double seals and gaskets the kit has I'm optimistic about its sealing ability too. Not bad for $520.

[gator68428]

This was designed for lateral loads, unlike the leaky other kits that were only intended for drag racing.

"Originally designed for Oval track racing to eliminate axle and bearing failure
This allows for an axle & bearing combination not possible with any other housing end
Providing Drag Race axle torsional strength, while capable of handling heavy side loads

This is the ultimate package for multiple use vehicles
Street / Strip / Oval track"

https://www.strangeengineering.net/p...stud-kit.html/

[CDR]

This was designed for lateral loads, unlike the leaky other kits that were only intended for drag racing.

"Originally designed for Oval track racing to eliminate axle and bearing failure
This allows for an axle & bearing combination not possible with any other housing end
Providing Drag Race axle torsional strength, while capable of handling heavy side loads

This is the ultimate package for multiple use vehicles
Street / Strip / Oval track"

https://www.strangeengineering.net/p...stud-kit.html/

That is an impressive looking setup. They are calling it a unit bearing, can you tell if it is a single tapered needle roller bearing, opposed tapered needle roller bearings or double row ball bearings? I cant tell from the pic.

[gator68428]

I just got off the phone with Strange. It is single tapered needle roller bearing.

[gator68428]

Pressed the bearings on today. This was a first for me and not something I've come across having worked only on cars--after watching some youtube videos it seems this is standard procedure for truck parts..

Definitely want to make sure you have the right equipment, or get them professionally done. It is not trivial. I had access to a manual 10k lb press and had the assistance of a skilled machinist.

This ought to improve my GM 10 bolt significantly.

Took about 2.5 hours from start to finish. This including machine time for making the press sleeves from scrap metal laying around (started with pieces that were pretty close--just needed to square up the faces and turn the IDs (i did the machining there--the machinist helped operate the press)). I made a 10 min youtube video showing the highlights.

The operation seemed to go smoothly and we followed the directions exactly.
But I can see the potential for leaks if not done properly--maybe that's why the bad rep for leaks?
Eitherwho, I will update again once I get the car going and monitor for leaks. Otherwise, so far so good.

[gator68428]

Yes but in this case the 1/8" would not be filled by a backing plate. It would be just a gap between the backing plate and the axle housing flange.

They didn't talk about this at all when I was on the phone. It sounded like the only seal used would be the standard set20 seal. The housing end would be their standard H1143 end. Do you have a link to info on what you're talking about?

I ground the drum plate alignment protruding shoulder down all the way so the eliminator will be in full contact with the housing end flange. If I had the drum plate present it would be sandwiched in and the eliminator/axle would be spaced by its thickness--the protruding shoulder was meant to align the drum plate only. The diameter of the protruding shoulder is larger than the inner diameter of the eliminator bore and therefore plays no role in the alignment of the eliminator--which is why I ground it down to maintain full contact. I asked Strange if it was OK to leave the drum plate out and they said it was fine. To me that implied I should grind the protruding shoulder down flat, but I didn't explicitly ask. If the axle slides in too far then I will need to make a spacer, but I'm not worried about losing the shoulder since it no longer serves any purpose without drum plate. I'll know later today how far in the axles go--I couldn't check prior to pressing the bearings on.

Yes the Strange kit has two seals, the inner one is around the wedding ring, and the outer is to a should on the axle. It also requires RTV silicone to be used to seal the two eliminator halves together.