DEI535 pwr window controller

[jsg]

I'm wanting to put one touch modules in my 64 Riviera, and the windows and regulators are large and heavy so I'm concerned about putting weak motors in. Are there different windings on these motors to make one model stronger than others? Has anyone here bolted the later reversing motors to old GM regulators? Just eyeballing them, it looks like they might bolt in but the clocking on the motor's body might be a problem.

I had also considered adding relays to increase available amps at the motors, directly after the one touch modules. Anyone know if that interferes with the modules function?

[CapSS92]

Most modules are current sensing so relays would probably gum that up. Best bet is to use a good power source and adequate wire that will handle the current. The previous poster on here, Harnessworx, seems to make good harnesses that would handle the loads. I looked at putting newer motors but you're right, it's tricky getting something to line up well. Believe it or not Ford motors seemed like they would fit better than the GM stuff I found. Most of the stock GM motors have holes clocked at 9-12-3 and it's hard to find any that line up. I went through the local junkyard and the older Fords seem have the proper type motors. You also have to factor in the teeth on the gears so they can mesh with the original regulator. I even bought some from Rockauto for $15-20 but again, lining everything up was the issue. I listed a part number earlier in this thread, DORMAN 742101, that is pretty universal. They're cheap enough at Rock that maybe you can get one to experiment. HTH.

Alex

[cdrod]

Alex:
I took your advice and purchased a later model window motor for a G-body car that is reversible, i.e. not self-grounding. I bought a Dorman#742-150 motor that has the correct diameter drive gear and tooth count as the A-body self-grounding motors I want to replace. I've done some bench testing/comparing and the G-body motors appear to turn at the same speed as the stock A-body motors, and the G-body window regulators are similar in design to the earlier A-body cars as well, so I think these motors will be able to handle the load.

The G-body motor is a completely different design than the A-body motor so mounting them will require some fabrication work. I'm in the process of making an adapter plate to mount the G-body motors to the A-body power window regulators. They will need to be clocked for clearance and also need some standoffs to mount them securely. One nice benefit of the swap: the G-body motor is about 2 lbs lighter and only draws 2-3amps (no-load) where the A-body motors draw 7-9amps (no-load). I'll post some follow-up pics after I fabricate the adapters and do a little testing to know this is a viable swap. Thank you to everyone you chimed in on my thread and helped me get to this point.

Rodney

[CapSS92]

Good to hear, let us know how it turns out.



Alex

[jsg]

Alex - I shopped around, and just ordered one from Rock Auto. Got a ACDelco 11M23 that has a 12 tooth count. I'd like to try to make this work.

Rodney - I'm now in that same boat as you. I'll be watching your post to see what you come up with. I'll also post my findings for installing on a Riv.

[CapSS92]

Yeah it's the same as the Dorman one. GM uses it in a lot of cars. Looking forward to see how you guys come out. Keep us updated. Thanks.

Alex

[H2Ogbodies]

I'm wanting to put one touch modules in my 64 Riviera, and the windows and regulators are large and heavy so I'm concerned about putting weak motors in. Are there different windings on these motors to make one model stronger than others? Has anyone here bolted the later reversing motors to old GM regulators? Just eyeballing them, it looks like they might bolt in but the clocking on the motor's body might be a problem.

I had also considered adding relays to increase available amps at the motors, directly after the one touch modules. Anyone know if that interferes with the modules function?

I've been building one touch down kits for GM applications going on 5 years now in every possible type of configuration and the motors on the self grounding older cars aren't complicated at all. The problem is the voltage loss through the switch....as well as the generally inefficient method of wiring GM used on the 60's anyway compared to today.

Using relays to act as load carrying will greatly improve the window speed-the solid state modules don't "gum up" the feature-they merely look for resistance and when they see infinite resistance they open the circuit-as in, once the window stops its travel being with fully up or down. Breaking the circuit by tapping the switch also stops the window in its tracks. The first step is a GOOD relay conversion then add the auto feature to the relays-letting the switches act as ground triggers. I have kits for 68-72 A bodies and it would be very similar to your riviera too. I also keep 70-81 Camaro/Firebird kits on hand as that is my most popular kit. If you decide to not go through the process of swapping out motors (I don't think this will work out very well but you can try it) then drop me a line. You don't have to have reverse polarity motors for auto down-but it would be required if you want auto down AND up.

[CapSS92]

Are you talking about the GM modules that you use in your kits? Maybe the GM ones work different. The reason I said it gums up the modules was due to what the DEI manuals stated. I could be wrong but here's what I found in the instruction manuals from DEI.

535-The 535T monitors the AC “noise” generated by the motion of the motor. For this
reason the 535T cannot drive relays or control modules in the system.

529-Remember that the module outputs must always be connected directly to the motors, not to a relay or any other module.

I couldn't find anything on the 530 and I'm not familiar with other manufacturers so I can't say for sure. Thanks.

Alex

[blitzer454]

Jabin,
Are you saying, on your setup, that you would need to tap the window switch when the window reaches the end of travel when using the auto up/down feature to stop the motor from grinding? I haven't studied how you connect your kits, but I assume you are using some kind of window module similar to the DEI. These modules look for an increase in current which looks more like a short not infinite resistance. If you're not connecting the output of the window module directly to the window motor then the module can not sense the change in current. In this case you would have to tap the window switch in order to get the motor to stop, but I wouldn't recommend this as a solution as it stresses the motor and the mechanical linkage inside the door.

Rodney,
Before going through the expense of buying a new motor and adapting it to work in your door why not try the diode solution I mentioned in a previous post? This diode (https://www.digikey.com/products/en/...ers-single/280) would work well.

[H2Ogbodies]

No-the window can be stopped anywhere in its travel. But once pressed, the solid state processor closes the (negative side) of relay coil contacts which maintain current until it sees the circuit approaching infinite resistance as determined by the type of solid state chip that GM used by Motorola-no doubt the design itself is proprietary too. Once that resistance is met, the ground circuit opens thus stopping current to the motors. It interrupts current on the ground side-not positive. For this reason, the system whether it's the motor or the relays must be grounded at rest. There isn't any debate on If it works-I've built probably 250 kits in the last 2 years in a wide variety of vehicles using both versions of GM modules as well as Ford modules. Slight differences between the two exist but they all perform the same function. Only generation II GM modules allow for auto down AND up but it requires using reverse polarity window motors.

[cdrod]

Blitzer:
I've already bought a Dorman motor ($18) worth the purchase price to experiment. I'm moving forward with the motor swap option for the following reasons:
1. The G-body motors draw much less current than the A-body motors.
2. The G-body motors are lighter.
3. The diodes might affect the operation of the DEI module.
4. The A-body motors are 40+ years old.
5. G-body motors & DEI module is more cost efficient. The GM modules are $30-40 on ebay, need 2 modules for auto up & dn on each window.

[blitzer454]

Rodney,
Got it! I hope it works out for you.

Jabin,
I guess I'm still not clear on how the GM modules work, or at least I'm not clear about the one you're using. I don't doubt that your system works, I was just trying to understand how it works. I tried looking for some info on the GM modules and I found a picture that shows a block diagram of the module and as I suspected it uses a sense resistor to monitor the motor current. So if you were to connect the output of this module to the relay coil instead of the motor then this module wouldn't work. I suspect I'm either not understanding how you connect the module or you're module works completely different. In either case I'm just going to let it go as it's not really relevant to this thread.

[CapSS92]

Blitzer, I would say if you use this circuit, which looks similiar to Jabin's, the relays source power directly to the motors and the relays get triggered by low voltage running through the stock GM switches.

http://www.78ta.com/HTAF/index.php?topic=40530.0

Then the GM module would get wired after the relays, which would then detect the current flow and stop when it fully rises or lowers or you trigger the window switch.

http://www.vettemod.com/forum/showthread.php?p=93330

I went and bought one from a junkyard the other day and wired it to an El Camino I'm working on. 4 wires and it was pretty easy. Gave it auto down for the drivers side. I also bought some Ford modules but haven't had a car to install them on. I posted the links also earlier in this thread.
Overall I think the DEI module and the newer modules will work better for Rodney. I'm looking forward to see how it comes out. It's good information for anyone looking to upgrade their motors if it works out. Besides, half the fun is fabrication lol.

Alex

[H2Ogbodies]

I've thought about opening up one of the GM modules but to do so would render them useless since it would take quite a bit of work to remove the electrical potting they used to seal them. There's a lot to the circuit board on the series I modules so I imagine the series II modules are even more complex. True-possibly not pertaining to this thread but I figured if the wheel has already been invented....?

[LS1-IROC]

H2O, do you have anything for the 3rd gen f-body power windows? Cost if you do.

[H2Ogbodies]

H2O, do you have anything for the 3rd gen f-body power windows? Cost if you do.

I sure do! In fact, that's the first kit I ever offered was for the 3rd gen fbody guys! It's literally a 10 minute install once you get the console plate off and radio pod out of the way. The wiring is the easy part lol! The auto down is $114 shipped and auto down/up is $159 shipped. I extend the module harness to mount behind the radio pod area because real estate is limited for anything more than the 4-gang relay bank in the console. If you want a kit, PM me for my paypal info and I can have one coming your way!

[jsg]

Got my window motor today, and it looks like it will work on older GM regulators. It's a ACDelco 11M23 (GM #19251414) I got from RockAuto for $25. I believe it's spec'd for early 2000's Cavaliers and G30 vans. It has 12 teeth on the gear, where most others seem to be 9 teeth.

It comes with a bracket that allows it to bolt to the standard 3 bolt motor mount, and can be switched from right or left orientation. It's pretty clever. However, on my 64 Buick regulator, two of the outmost holes are 1/8" farther out, so the holes on the regulator have to be moved out. The gear matches perfectly. I tested it on a quarter window regulator and it's ok. I'll try this weekend on a door regulator.



Motor and bracket



Red arrows show bolt misalignment on two holes. When shaft is located, the bottom hole lines up. Just need to open the two holes up a little.



Red arrows show mounting locations



With bracket attached, gear is in right height location also. New motor is longer by a inch and half, but looks like it will clear the regulator.

[jsg]

That's really great info, thanks. It's starting to look like the newer reversing motors can fit my regulators. I'm going to give them a try, because they're considerably cheaper than rebuilt originals ($25 versus $100+), and I would like to have express up and down.

So to make sure I understand.... would it be possible to have power relays between the express modules (one up, one down) on a reversing motor? From my extremely limited knowledge of electricity, it seems like it wouldn't work because reversing voltage would be hitting the switch side of the relay. I think. It gives me a headache to be honest.

steve

[CapSS92]

What are you trying to accomplish with the power relays Steve? If you just want to take the load off of stock power window switches, then the modules go after the relays and they should work just fine. I didn't use relays on mine with aftermarket motors and DEI modules but I used all new switches and made my own harness with bigger wire. I'll attach a pic and you can see the switches in the center. I used a panel from a Mini Cooper. Kinda hard to see in the pic. You gotta be a certain kinda of crazy for electrical lol. I fit right in.

[CapSS92]

BTW great pics of the pw motors. Glad to see they'll fit. You're right about the cost of stock rebuilts. You can get all 4 new style for the price of 1 old style. No brainer there. Can you get some video of how fast it moves before and after? That would be a good visual.

Alex